No one is challenging this specific merger impact on KC or KCSs presence in STL.
The post above mentioned having access to all 6 class 1 railways. I’m seeking GoneCorporates (who from past posts seems to have three lifetimes of experience in shipping/logistics) feelings on that significance.
Could someone explain exactly what this means and how it may effect the STL area? I mean, they're not gonna start ripping out the other guy's infrastructure, are they?
Neither system overlaps with the other. So no, there won’t be any removal.
The combined entity will still be the nation’s smallest Class I railroad. From what I’ve read in the Star the main concerns over there are keeping local jobs since KC is losing another HQ. Global HQ will now be Calgary.
Yea I was speaking more to logistics opportunities and traffic flow. I don't think this will change anything for STL.
Jobs wise: Canadian Pacific will move their US HQ from Minneapolis to KC. Candian Pacific US Operations center will move to KC too once it can be negotiated with the union. I'm slightly worried about some job loss but I think it will even out at a minimum or potentially increase slightly. Potential opportunity for increased logistics jobs in the KC region.
No one is challenging this specific merger impact on KC or KCSs presence in STL.
The post above mentioned having access to all 6 class 1 railways. I’m seeking GoneCorporates (who from past posts seems to have three lifetimes of experience in shipping/logistics) feelings on that significance.
Not thinking you're challenging anything. Just providing more info cause I find the stuff interesting. Ik Ik very nerdy
A couple of years ago I read that someone was brining new rail to a Jerseyville project that goes to Mexico. Was that KCS? Is that just a short little connection to their existing line that goes to KC or are they doing another large leg south?
framer wrote:Could someone explain exactly what this means and how it may effect the STL area? I mean, they're not gonna start ripping out the other guy's infrastructure, are they?
TBH I don’t think it means much for STL. The line to STL is a stub of a stub almost. Eastbound traffic from Mexico can interchange with east coast railroads at KC (NS at least) and Louisiana and MS.
Fantastic opportunity for KC though.
GoneCorporate do you agree?
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This does a lot for the branding of STL as one of the more significant rail hubs in the US. If only 3 hubs have access to all Class I railroads in North America, and STL is one of them, then that's a good thing for how the region is positioned nationally for logistics infrastructure. What I find really fun is that these 3 hubs - CHI, STL, and NOLA - are pretty much a straight shot North-South. It shows the importance of the Central US, especially along the Mississippi River, for transportation and logistics. Concurrently, as STL builds up its transportation infrastructure, as it's doing now with the Merchants Bridge, I'd think it puts us in greater consideration of the national business community for industrial development.
Meanwhile, my hopes for KC are that they can retain KSU's corporate presence in their city. Much like how STL lost Union Pacific's offices to Omaha, this could hurt our brother to the west. They really are a vitally important hub nationally for our trade with Mexico, and that's not going to change (no tracks or anything are going to be lost because of this deal). Still, the loss of jobs from a major corporation's acquisition can be inherently dangerous to a city's growth.
Side note: Such major industrial consolidation is pretty significant. That the 2 smallest Class I railroads felt the need to merge to remain competitive with the other 5... An an investment manager, I find major Large Cap mergers to be pretty important already, but consolidation within the rail industry is also something to consider when it's companies this big.
This news is like 3 years old now and I don't believe a cubic yard of dirt has been moved. I'm growing skeptical.
Couldn’t tell ya. Tbh I really couldn’t care less about the merger of two small railroads so I haven’t put much research into it. That article is less than a year old though.
This news is like 3 years old now and I don't believe a cubic yard of dirt has been moved. I'm growing skeptical.
It will be interesting to see if this does play out. Have read a few spitball comments on other railroad specific forums on whether the new industrial park will still be a priority for the new CPKC let alone the rail line itself from KC to IL and down into East St Louis. Like others noted, CPKC becomes a NAFTA north-south corridor powerhouse and therefore the plus side is a lot of seamless quantity and flow through KC. In the same breath, they could easily do all their east west interchange with the other Class I's efficiently in KC (specifically BNSF, Union Pacific & NS) and or Chicago (All of them including CSX & CN) vs the cost of maintaining its infrastructure for the relatively short gain going east to interchange or pickup St Louis originating traffic. As it stands now, their is four east west corridors for St Louis - KC including BNSF, UP, NS and KCS. I see the argument where CPKC sees this corridor redundant and less competitive going forward in their strategic thinking. Instead, continue to build up KC and Chicago area.
Heck, you could probably see where TRRA if it was truly independent (not owned by the other Class Is) would make a play to expand to KC by buying the rail line outright.
As far as the article, reads right out of the previous POTUS play book of lets go subsidize & build more four lane freeways, bypasses, and develop outside the metro areas because rural area is good and city is bad. Another way to put it, why try to rebuild Metro East and its significant amount of industrial property with a ton of rail, port and freeway infrastructure already in placed. I also found it ironic that they mention the need for affordable housing if they are successful in breaking ground..
This news is like 3 years old now and I don't believe a cubic yard of dirt has been moved. I'm growing skeptical.
It will be interesting to see if this does play out. Have read a few spitball comments on other railroad specific forums on whether the new industrial park will still be a priority for the new CPKC let alone the rail line itself from KC to IL and down into East St Louis. Like others noted, CPKC becomes a NAFTA north-south corridor powerhouse and therefore the plus side is a lot of seamless quantity and flow through KC. In the same breath, they could easily do all their east west interchange with the other Class I's efficiently in KC (specifically BNSF, Union Pacific & NS) and or Chicago (All of them including CSX & CN) vs the cost of maintaining its infrastructure for the relatively short gain going east to interchange or pickup St Louis originating traffic. As it stands now, their is four east west corridors for St Louis - KC including BNSF, UP, NS and KCS. I see the argument where CPKC sees this corridor redundant and less competitive going forward in their strategic thinking. Instead, continue to build up KC and Chicago area.
Heck, you could probably see where TRRA if it was truly independent (not owned by the other Class Is) would make a play to expand to KC by buying the rail line outright.
As far as the article, reads right out of the previous POTUS play book of lets go subsidize & build more four lane freeways, bypasses, and develop outside the metro areas because rural area is good and city is bad. Another way to put it, why try to rebuild Metro East and its significant amount of industrial property with a ton of rail, port and freeway infrastructure already in placed. I also found it ironic that they mention the need for affordable housing if they are successful in breaking ground..
Doesn’t seem like you think very highly of StL logistics capabilities, Dredger.
^I think Dredger is commenting more on KCS's position relative to NS, UP, and BNSF, all of whom have comparable to better routes between St. Louis and Kansas City or Chicago. That said, one of the strengths of the KCS route between KC and Springfield IL is that it bypasses both St. Louis and Chicago. (Much like the NS route.) I don't see them abandoning it or even selling it off. And keeping the line open from Springfield to St. Louis is comparatively easy and inexpensive and gives them access to the market here, so I don't think CP will bail on it any more than KCS did. As far as I can tell, CP buying KCS won't really change the math on their local operations any. (Which is pretty different from the UP/MP/MKT or SP/CRI&P/UP mergers.) But we will see.
BellaVilla, that is not my argument or my thought at all.
My argument is that KCS line from KC to St Louis doesn't make as much as sense with their CP merger. Look at the Class I's and they have either made strategic investments to strengthen their corridors on one hand and willing too shed rail lines on the other hand. I just don't think KCS and CP merger is neither a win nor a loss for St. Louis. St. Louis strength will still be its location and always will be as well as having an ice free lock free waterway to the gulf. The container by barge will be a boom for St. Louis region as the boxes will come off locally as soon as a upriver lock is down for repairs, river freezes and Missouri River has low water levels.
For KC, I think it will be a mix bag at first but overall a win in long term. On one hand, they lose some corporate identity just as St. Louis did when Missouri Pacific was bought up by UP. However, they will still have some corporate presence. Think Budweiser. On second hand, KC is along a very strong North South NAFTA corridor. Because of that it makes a lot of sense for the new railroad to put its resources and dollars in development of that corridor with direct access to Texas cities/Mexican industries in one direction and Chicago/Toronto/Montreal in the other direction rather than a secondary rail line that competes with three other east west routes across Missouri.
BellaVilla, that is not my argument or my thought at all.
My argument is that KCS line from KC to St Louis doesn't make as much as sense with their CP merger. Look at the Class I's and they have either made strategic investments to strengthen their corridors on one hand and willing too shed rail lines on the other hand. I just don't think KCS and CP merger is neither a win nor a loss for St. Louis. St. Louis strength will still be its location and always will be as well as having an ice free lock free waterway to the gulf. The container by barge will be a boom for St. Louis region as the boxes will come off locally as soon as a upriver lock is down for repairs, river freezes and Missouri River has low water levels.
For KC, I think it will be a mix bag at first but overall a win in long term. On one hand, they lose some corporate identity just as St. Louis did when Missouri Pacific was bought up by UP. However, they will still have some corporate presence. Think Budweiser. On second hand, KC is along a very strong North South NAFTA corridor. Because of that it makes a lot of sense for the new railroad to put its resources and dollars in development of that corridor with direct access to Texas cities/Mexican industries in one direction and Chicago/Toronto/Montreal in the other direction rather than a secondary rail line that competes with three other east west routes across Missouri.
All good points. One area that I see potential additional benefit for St. Louis is that CP's largest business is transportation of grain and potash, whereas KCS is/was known for auto and auto-parts between US and Mexico. I think that institutional focus on farm products could dovetail well with St. Louis industries (Bunge, Bayer/Monsanto) and the unique intermodal barge capabilities you mentioned (which aren't are much of a factor for auto as they are for grain/fertilizer).
So I just posted a link on the Mergers & Acquisitions thread a bit ago on the Canadian Pacific - Kansas City Southern merger, and maybe I should post it here, too:
While many of the letters contained boilerplate language supporting the merger, here are some selected quotes:
Central Midland Railway Director of Marketing Jordan Buck
“The advantage that comes with access by the CP to St. Louis will not only benefit Central Midland’s current customers but will prove to be tremendously helpful for industrial development efforts throughout the region. It solidifies St. Louis’ position as one of the premier inland logistics centers in the United States. No other region has direct access to more Class 1 carriers, is more centrally located on the inland waterway system and has better connections to the interstate highway system. This unparalleled access to producers and markets throughout all of North America via multiple modes as well as single rail-line access to every major port in North America makes the region extremely attractive as a site location for multinational manufacturers and distributors. The efficiencies generated from this exceptional transportation access will drive job growth in the heart of the country and strengthen our nation’s economy.”
The STL Regional Freightway's website recently posted a story updating a bunch of projects, including the Merchants Bridge, I-270, and updates to a brief case study on project-centric transit initiatives.
^If I had to guess I'd guess it's an engineered soil sort of causeway. Probably cheaper than any other options. Engineered soil is basically dirt layered with one or another kind of durable cloth. It is to dirt piles what reinforced concrete is to ordinary concrete. Dirt is quite strong in compression, which is why you don't sink when you walk through your yard, but absurdly weak in tension, which is why you do sink when you walk across a random dirt pile. The cloth gives it strength in tension, as I understand it. (Like the rebar in reinforced concrete.) And the concrete slabs are just to make it look pretty. (And maybe also to keep rainwater from washing the dirt away.) The openings at the bottom are almost certainly culverts to let floodwater through so it doesn't back up upstream. They wanted to do a solution like this on the Page Avenue extension, but there were complaints about the flooding problems, so they went with a concrete trestle. The holes probably solve the flooding problem.
And yeah, it's butt ugly, but . . . oh well. Much as I hate to say it we really do need a new bridge.
^That's it. It's mechanically stabilized earth. There's more than one way to do it, but if you have ever heard of geogrid behind a wall or fabric below a road, that's what it is in reference to. Retaining walls taller than about 4 ft are built this way all the time. Engineers design it site specific, but it's pretty similar everywhere. The stabilized earth in an of itself is strong enough to hold without that wall itself, though without the wall there it would eventually fail because of rainwater erosion
In this case specifically, they did this to keep rail traffic flowing through the duration of the project. The old steel trestle was actually encapsulated inside the MSE walls. The open bottom is for water flow since they effectively built a partial dam. It's not pretty, I don't like it, but I do understand why they did it as a solution to maintaining rail traffic.
^I'll be danged! That trestle was a beaut, but keeping the line open during construction is incredibly important. (I've sat through presentations on how railroads did that historically when building some of our biggest grade separation projects.)
^The comments are interesting. It makes sense that DoC and STB would be less likely to give a CN/KCS merger their blessing, but the earlier conversation about KCS having gotten some kind of free pass agreement during the last round of mergers makes me wonder if the feds tied their own hands somehow. (I'm not at all familiar with it. Just recalling the conversation, but not immediately finding it here.) I can definitely see where this could force CP to sweeten their deal a bit just to keep it in place. (I would much rather see a CP/KCS deal than a CN/KCS deal for the reasons mentioned in the comments.)
