They are calling this temporary structure, slated for the SE corner of Forsyth and Carondelet Plaza a “welcome center.”
![]()
Update on future phases
![]()
Update on future phases
- 2,386
Well, that is certainly disappointing. Thanks for the update. Hopefully we get some new plans of consequence soon to accommodate further growth.
So the short answer to this is that any future construction will have to re-start the approval process from scratch; correct?
- 285
Hopefully they do so soon. The view of the East garage from Forsyth as you enter Clayton is hideous. It wouldn't be an issue if the future phases were built out, but if they're now uncertain, this is a major and potentially long lasting eyesore.
Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk
Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk
Impressive.moorlander wrote: ↑Jun 01, 2020They are calling this temporary structure, slated for the SE corner of Forsyth and Carondelet Plaza a “welcome center.”
Update on future phases
Hopefully the welcome center includes a historic plaque or wall illustration describing the history of the Clayton Hole to interested visitors.
As in most projects in the St. Louis area, they got what they wanted in Phase One, (Offices and garages) and the other nice features that helped sell the project slated for Phase Two evaporate. (see promised phase two amenities at Lumiere, River City Casino, Ballpark Village, etc...)
Never trust a Phase Two.
Never trust a Phase Two.
It may have taken a while, but Phase 2 of Ballpark Village sort of lives up to what they wanted originally (more retail/restaurant space, apartments, office and hotel).topher wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2020As in most projects in the St. Louis area, they got what they wanted in Phase One, (Offices and garages) and the other nice features that helped sell the project slated for Phase Two evaporate. (see promised phase two amenities at Lumiere, River City Casino, Ballpark Village, etc...)
Never trust a Phase Two.
Regarding Centene, what was built now could more or less be a Centene Phase 2. What we're looking at now, if it ever is proposed again, is Phase 3.
^ Agreed. As they were building this phase of the project, they announced a large planned expansion in Sacramento, made a multi-billion dollar purchase of WellCare and then right as they're putting the finishing touches on the first (or I guess really second) tower in Clayton...Covid-19 happens.
Centene's future should be strong, and with the WellCare deal all wrapped up, they're likely too large to be acquired now so they should be sticking around for while. Wouldn't be surprised to see another phase in the future as things settle down.
I am pissed about the auditorium though. I assumed the tallest tower in the Clayton hole would be delayed, if ever even built. But it would have been really nice to get the auditorium filled in on that corner instead of just another massive blank garage wall...and a sh*tty little "welcome center."
Centene's future should be strong, and with the WellCare deal all wrapped up, they're likely too large to be acquired now so they should be sticking around for while. Wouldn't be surprised to see another phase in the future as things settle down.
I am pissed about the auditorium though. I assumed the tallest tower in the Clayton hole would be delayed, if ever even built. But it would have been really nice to get the auditorium filled in on that corner instead of just another massive blank garage wall...and a sh*tty little "welcome center."
14 years later, Ballpark village is still 50% parking lot. River City's was able to get their phase two garage and hotel, but there's no sign of the community park, baseball fields and outdoor amphitheater that made those original plans and renders seem like an addition to the community, just an umkempt open field.chriss752 wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2020It may have taken a while, but Phase 2 of Ballpark Village sort of lives up to what they wanted originally (more retail/restaurant space, apartments, office and hotel).topher wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2020As in most projects in the St. Louis area, they got what they wanted in Phase One, (Offices and garages) and the other nice features that helped sell the project slated for Phase Two evaporate. (see promised phase two amenities at Lumiere, River City Casino, Ballpark Village, etc...)
Never trust a Phase Two.
Regarding Centene, what was built now could more or less be a Centene Phase 2. What we're looking at now, if it ever is proposed again, is Phase 3.
^ I would say less than 50% at BPV, those three half blocks are quite a bit smaller than the now developed blocks. And the Cardinals and Cordish have plans to continue to expand the district. This isn't the first recession that's slowed things down at BPV either. Leasing was pretty strong at OCW before all this, and I think Chris had said another residential tower was in design...though who knows what's up with that now. Things take time in a slow growth region like St. Louis, this isn't exactly a place where we can just start putting buildings up expecting them to fill up. Although if there was one place you could put up a spec office tower in STL, it would probably be Clayton.
I don't think this was some bait and switch by Centene, I think they thought they were going to need all of this when they proposed these plans. Things are different now. They now have a large base in Sacramento (which was always planned, even before the Clayton expansion) and then the WellCare deal, where they just consolidated into a new building in Tampa.
I don't think this was some bait and switch by Centene, I think they thought they were going to need all of this when they proposed these plans. Things are different now. They now have a large base in Sacramento (which was always planned, even before the Clayton expansion) and then the WellCare deal, where they just consolidated into a new building in Tampa.
- 3,762
^ out of those mentioned, Lumiere is the most odious, IMO. that place has become a scar on the face of the city. the phase 2 scale model (!!!) below showed high-rises along the riverfront. instead, we lost one of the most well-known music establishments in the US, among other historic structures, for acres of parking.
![]()
https://urbanstl.com/lumiere-place-phase-ii-only-t5163-s90.html
From Preservation Research Office: http://preservationresearch.com/riverfront/casino-claims-historic-north-riverfront-warehouses/
From Vanishing STL: http://vanishingstl.blogspot.com/2008/05/3740-lindell-to-be-demolished-this.html
https://urbanstl.com/lumiere-place-phase-ii-only-t5163-s90.html
From Preservation Research Office: http://preservationresearch.com/riverfront/casino-claims-historic-north-riverfront-warehouses/
From Vanishing STL: http://vanishingstl.blogspot.com/2008/05/3740-lindell-to-be-demolished-this.html
- 6,118
^I'll have to second urban_dilettante on that. Lumiere still feels like a slap in the face every time I see it. If there's any one thing that really killed the landing, that's it. Completely suckled the life out of the place.
Indeed. The former Busch II site is about 2/3 developed, eyeballing this picture...sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2020^ I would say less than 50% at BPV, those three half blocks are quite a bit smaller than the now developed blocks.
- 6,118
But we're off topic. In general, I agree. Never trust a phase two. This one seemed better than most, and at the very least we got more out of phase one than your usual project. I very much suspect this would have passed muster on what's there now alone, even without additional phases, save that they would have been required to screen the garage. So . . . screen the blooming garage already.
(And if you really want to do phases 2/3 then screen it cheaply with certain binding assurances it will be temporary. With "we will give up money" grade stuff. Pay a forfeit.)
So don't trust a phase 2. But they're not all created equal. BPV has been a long slog, but it's slowly paying out. This one got off to a nicer start and hit a snag. Oh, what might have been were Centene IN Ballpark Village.
(And Lumiere would still be a hornswaggle.)
(And if you really want to do phases 2/3 then screen it cheaply with certain binding assurances it will be temporary. With "we will give up money" grade stuff. Pay a forfeit.)
So don't trust a phase 2. But they're not all created equal. BPV has been a long slog, but it's slowly paying out. This one got off to a nicer start and hit a snag. Oh, what might have been were Centene IN Ballpark Village.
(And Lumiere would still be a hornswaggle.)
^ Why I don't trust Iron Hill and Foundry in phases. That among other things, not to derail farther.
wabash wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2020Impressive.moorlander wrote: ↑Jun 01, 2020They are calling this temporary structure, slated for the SE corner of Forsyth and Carondelet Plaza a “welcome center.”
Update on future phases
Hopefully the welcome center includes a historic plaque or wall illustration describing the history of the Clayton Hole to interested visitors.
-RBB
^ thanks rbb, I think that has to be one of the better pull the thread back to its topics posts lately.
As far as Centene next phase, my thoughts is that it is much more driven by company then general real estate/markets conditions and believe Centene is one of strongest St. Louis companies has seen in a while and will be for the foreseeable future. At end of day, Centene is the driver for future phases and don't think the property will stay vacant very long..
As far as Centene next phase, my thoughts is that it is much more driven by company then general real estate/markets conditions and believe Centene is one of strongest St. Louis companies has seen in a while and will be for the foreseeable future. At end of day, Centene is the driver for future phases and don't think the property will stay vacant very long..
Centene’s two massive parking garages are getting a sky bridge connector.
- 1,793
Centene investing more than $1 billion in Charlotte with ambitions to employ 6,000 workers when fully built out. Centene currently has 4,700 employees in the StL metro.
Here is the article: https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... s_headline
I think this better explains why we haven't seen news lately regarding future phases than the Well Care purchase.
We just got very excited, and rightfully so, over 1,400 jobs. Imagine 6,000? Feels like the sunbelt is playing a different game.
Here is the article: https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... s_headline
I think this better explains why we haven't seen news lately regarding future phases than the Well Care purchase.
We just got very excited, and rightfully so, over 1,400 jobs. Imagine 6,000? Feels like the sunbelt is playing a different game.
^ I'd be surprised if they get to 6,000. They're only committing to 3,200 over 10 years, which is just over the amount they need to add to get all the proposed incentives. Which is still massively good news for Charlotte. They recently moved into a new building in Tampa and are currently building out their West Coast HQ (another big campus style development that will have over 5,000 employees) in Sacramento. I wouldn't say this eliminates them adding any other jobs in St. Louis in the future...especially if they keep making acquisitions...speaking of which:
Centene just acquired 54,000 members from NextLevel in Cook County, Illinois:
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local ... afc59.html
Centene just acquired 54,000 members from NextLevel in Cook County, Illinois:
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local ... afc59.html
- 1,793
I too would be surprised. An investment of this size in Charlotte just puts into perspective that we still have a lot of work to do just keep pace with our peers, let alone move up to the rung of Minneapolis or Denver.
^ Oh yeah, tons of work to do. Here's the PD link for those that don't have BJ subscription:
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local ... 927a0.html
Also, I'd put good money on this being the reason NC got picked lol. Tampa, Florida was the other competitor, as was York, SC but they are within the Charlotte Metro area.
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local ... 927a0.html
Also, I'd put good money on this being the reason NC got picked lol. Tampa, Florida was the other competitor, as was York, SC but they are within the Charlotte Metro area.
The St. Louis-based company will benefit from a recently sweetened state economic recruitment law, which along with local incentives could provide Centene with well over $450 million in benefits over time, according to state officials.
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... ative.html
Pretty sobering article...
"If we're trying to recruit somebody, and they're staying at their hotel, hearing that the 13th child was killed, it makes it very hard," Neidorff said. "They may love the job and the company," but then say their family doesn't want to move here."
"While Clayton remains Centene's headquarters, whether that continues is "not up to us," Neidorff said. "It's up to the people that create an environment that a Fortune 25 company wants to be in."
"More people are leaving than entering the community," he said. "I'm working to try to improve the public-safety issues. We're making progress on that, but it's taking a long time. We needed to have a viable alternative if things don't get better here. On a corporate and personal basis, we recognize that Charlotte has their act together."
Pretty sobering article...
"If we're trying to recruit somebody, and they're staying at their hotel, hearing that the 13th child was killed, it makes it very hard," Neidorff said. "They may love the job and the company," but then say their family doesn't want to move here."
"While Clayton remains Centene's headquarters, whether that continues is "not up to us," Neidorff said. "It's up to the people that create an environment that a Fortune 25 company wants to be in."
"More people are leaving than entering the community," he said. "I'm working to try to improve the public-safety issues. We're making progress on that, but it's taking a long time. We needed to have a viable alternative if things don't get better here. On a corporate and personal basis, we recognize that Charlotte has their act together."
Yet statements like this never convince the region to take ownership of its problems.
- 8,904
Shots fired across the bow by Neidorff. Don’t forget Centene is also building a campus near Sacramento for 5k workers. A shame more of these jobs aren’t coming here.