A park that few have recognized in years will soon become the highest ranked city park when counting visits per acre.
That wedge-shaped portion of the property will remain a city park, and still be part of the Gateway Mall. It will just double as a soccer stadium entrance plaza. The plan is to do something like Citygarden there, with art and fountains and whatnot.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jan 09, 2020
could this possibly be an issue? City requires a public vote to sell a city park, Part of the stadium appears to be in Aloe Plaza west park....yes the city really considers it a park
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I reccommend they rename it "Pitch Plaza Park"urbanitas wrote: ↑Jan 09, 2020That wedge-shaped portion of the property will remain a city park, and still be part of the Gateway Mall. It will just double as a soccer stadium entrance plaza. The plan is to do something like Citygarden there, with art and fountains and whatnot.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Jan 09, 2020
could this possibly be an issue? City requires a public vote to sell a city park, Part of the stadium appears to be in Aloe Plaza west park....yes the city really considers it a park
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Idk how the stadium doesnt get into park land- they can say that the stadiums south end pavilion isnt part of the "stadium" but that is a legal tightrope
Is anyone really using Aloe Plaza West as a park lol? I don't really see the big deal in having the stadium roof overhanging an unused patch of grass...whether or not it's technically a city park. The image you have in your tweet seems to match the outline here:
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I guess I just don't see what the big deal is.
Also while we're on the subject, the idea of having to have a public vote to build on a piece of land like this one (for a stadium or anything else) is about the stupidest thing ever.
I guess I just don't see what the big deal is.
Also while we're on the subject, the idea of having to have a public vote to build on a piece of land like this one (for a stadium or anything else) is about the stupidest thing ever.
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Well the problem is the law, regardless how small or used Aloe Plaza west is, it’s a city park and the city charter is clear on a public vote if it is to be sold and developed.
^ But other than a slight overhang, it doesn't appear any major construction will be required on that piece of property. And I'd be willing to bet the ownership group isn't buying it either...it will remain city parkland as a rebuilt Aloe Plaza West Extension as illustrated above. I don't recall any public votes to spruce up Citygarden or Kiener Plaza (outside of the Arch tax to fund the overall project).
I guess a question for someone with really good understanding of the City Charter and a fair bit of legal expertise. Does city charter cover or state anything about the air space above the park itself? Yep, splitting legal hairs with the question but everything I understand states that a city vote is required to sell park land. No land is sold, No restrictions on air space above parkland stated and no legal basis for having a vote is my 15 second late night legal spot.
The whole notion of making a big fuss about an underused park part of the stadium seems idiotic on the scale that only politicians and a few look at me activists want to try and leverage something out of it when you consider how much donated funds have gone into city parks from Forest Park to City Garden and so on.
The whole notion of making a big fuss about an underused park part of the stadium seems idiotic on the scale that only politicians and a few look at me activists want to try and leverage something out of it when you consider how much donated funds have gone into city parks from Forest Park to City Garden and so on.
I don't think anyone expects it to actually become a big issue. Denis Beganovic was merely pointing out a technicality that needs to be addressed. No doubt the lawyers know what to do.
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I bring this up to avoid a situation of raising fuss. City and mls group have no a poor, well actually no job at all in explaining the technicality of this corner. This is their chance to explain it now. We’ve seen with airport and every other thing that the city likes to play things close and it always blows up on them
^The MLS ownership and stadium design team reps at the Open House in December were all aware of the issue. The city park property will have to be raised / graded, and completely rebuilt and landscaped, since it currently slopes down into Highway Ramp Valley, but that doesn't require a vote. I suppose a valid question would be who pays for the grading and landscaping of the city-owned parcel, but I'm sure that little pocket park will get a donor or corporate sponsorship that will pay for at least part of it.
Relevant information from the current LCRA agenda regarding Aloe Plaza West:
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... Packet.pdfThe Soccer Stadium Redevelopment Area (the "Redevelopment Area") is more fully described on Attachment A hereto. The Redevelopment Area consists of approximately 34.73 acres, including rights-of-way, and is generally comprised of I-64 exit and entrance ramps and associated rights-of-way, a City park (Aloe Plaza West), surface parking, and vacant and occupied commercial buildings. The Soccer Stadium Redevelopment Plan (the "Redevelopment Plan") contemplates that the Redevelopment Area will be redeveloped for use as a stadium for a professional soccer team and associated team facilities (provided, however, Aloe Plaza West will remain a public park owned by the City of St. Louis).
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... QT09In0%3D
MLS ownership group to move forward on stadium project without state tax credits
MLS ownership group to move forward on stadium project without state tax credits
I believe the BJ is paywalled so here is the PD reporting:
MLS group 'full-steam ahead' despite tax credit setback
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local ... the-latest
MLS group 'full-steam ahead' despite tax credit setback
https://www.stltoday.com/business/local ... the-latest
The project, which they say will transform the western edge of downtown, is "full steam ahead," ownership group attorney Bill Kuehling of Thompson Coburn said Tuesday at a St. Louis Land Clearance for Redevelopment Authority meeting.
The owners, he continued, are "sadder but wiser."
The ownership group — World Wide Technology CEO Jim Kavanaugh and rental car giant Enterprise Holdings' Taylor family — has been silent since Gov. Mike Parson's administration surprised them with its decision last month not to grant the $30 million tax credit request. The state could still approve a package of state aid closer to $6 million, though a meeting of the Missouri Development Finance Board, which administers the credits, was cancelled Tuesday. The owners remain in discussions with the state, Kuehling said. They believe the state should be willing to assist the project "as a matter of fairness," he said. They had planned to finance nearly all of the project with their own funds, asking for some special sales tax districts from the city, property tax abatement and the state tax credits.
Kuehling said the group hopes to close by early February on the purchase of the Missouri Department of Transportation Land that runs north and south of Market Street. Highway ramps should start closing around that time. Some utility work on the site has already begun.
The group also said it may need the power of eminent domain if it can't reach agreement with one private property owner on Olive Street. "You could build around it, but frankly it would look ridiculous," Kuehling said. The team has already purchased or is near closing on the other properties. Eli Hoisington, an architect with HOK, described how the stadium would provide a western endpoint to the Gateway Mall, which stretches east to the Arch. A new public plaza on the eastern edge of the stadium would be the size of Kiener Plaza downtown, and would provide another venue for events.
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^
this is absolutely not sufficient justification for eminent domain. ***** that guy. that one property isn't preventing stadium construction. it's a tiny corner of the damn plaza. and, frankly, too many people here are of the opinion that empty space is better than buildings. slap a damn mural on it and it'll fit in just fine.but frankly it would look ridiculous," Kuehling said
Eminent Domain was meant for highways and railroads. Soccer stadiums? I'm not so sure.
Build around it.
Build around it.
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I would support forced arbitration that traded a new build of equivalent square footage within a block or two with olive frontage. not sure of the legal mechanism though.
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In general I think eminent domain for a soccer stadium isn't appropriate, but it depends on the facts and circumstances of this case. If the building in question has been vacant for years and is owned by some speculator just trying to hold out for more $, then I say eminent domain all you want. If it's a mom and pop business who've been there for years, let them stay.
Hypothetical to those against eminent domain: What if Paul McKee owned the building in question and was just trying to play games to get more money....would you still be against eminent domain?
Hypothetical to those against eminent domain: What if Paul McKee owned the building in question and was just trying to play games to get more money....would you still be against eminent domain?
I agree with you, the particulars of the building and owner make all the difference.SouthCityJR wrote: ↑Jan 22, 2020In general I think eminent domain for a soccer stadium isn't appropriate, but it depends on the facts and circumstances of this case. If the building in question has been vacant for years and is owned by some speculator just trying to hold out for more $, then I say eminent domain all you want. If it's a mom and pop business who've been there for years, let them stay.
Hypothetical to those against eminent domain: What if Paul McKee owned the building in question and was just trying to play games to get more money....would you still be against eminent domain?
Like so many times it gets down to case by case basis. A good example might be the LINK in the loop (new CVS). Believe Eminent Domain was used to get rid of the gas station at that corner. I believe most of us would agree that the outcome was better there. However, you have to throw out the principle or hard red line of using Eminent Domain for a specific reason, say a highway.framer wrote: ↑Jan 22, 2020Eminent Domain was meant for highways and railroads. Soccer stadiums? I'm not so sure.
Build around it.
So where do I fall. My take is that St. Louis voters made it clear what they would support as far as public subsidies go and so in some respects it impacted the stadium site location from south of market to a more doable, more cost effective building site on north side of market. To me, supporting Eminent Domain on the one hold out for a project of this scale, scope and private investment for west downtown is the right route to go.
2008-2012 Olive Street, which is owned by Abbott Properties, the Kansas City developer. They just acquired this property in June 2018. Half of the first floor retail space was the Black Pearl tattoo parlor, which moved out and down the street a year ago. The owner of the tattoo parlor has claimed that Abbott would not renew his lease. It looks like the rest of the building has been vacant for at least a decade.Ebsy wrote: ↑Jan 22, 2020Do we know which building/owner is holding out?
So this is more of a speculator situation than anything else? I couldn't really care less if eminent domain is used against some KC developer.
It isn't quite that simple though. If you leave 2008-2012 Olive in place, then you also have to leave the alley behind it, along with the dumpsters, telephone poles, streetlights, and rebuild whatever stormwater / sewer lines run down it. That alley would also run across their plaza, unless they build new access along the east side of the building.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jan 22, 2020^this is absolutely not sufficient justification for eminent domain. ***** that guy. that one property isn't preventing stadium construction. it's a tiny corner of the damn plaza. and, frankly, too many people here are of the opinion that empty space is better than buildings. slap a damn mural on it and it'll fit in just fine.but frankly it would look ridiculous," Kuehling said
And from the site plans, they are planning on grading that entire east plaza space along 20th Street between Market and Olive, so that the stadium entrance plaza / festival space will be more or less level. If the existing building remains, they will have to build a retaining wall around at least 2 sides of it, and they would have to do that before they start construction on the northeast corner of the stadium.