Thanks. So if the rendering is accurate Servco must be the one on the northernmost corner of the intersection. It's a pretty boxy, nondescript building but it doesn't look to be in bad shape. I'd much rather it were left alone for now–maybe cleaned up and stabilized a little if need be–than torn down for nothing as the site plan indicates. I see that the area bounded by 2nd, Gratiot, 3rd, and Lombard will become a giant parking garage... the existing buildings (M.A. Bell Co.) aren't particularly special but they look like they might be historic. It would be nice for this development to retain some of that fine grain for shoppes and such–particularly the western half of the complex:chriss752 wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2019Early plans have the remnants of Servco, the Housing Authority owned building at 2nd and Chouteau, a factory building bounded by 2nd, Gratiot, 3rd and Lombard, and a loading dock on Lombard Street all being demolished. Mostly because they would cost more to renovate than to demolish. The burned Crunden Martin building is tricky as they want to redevelop it but aren’t sure if it’s possible or worth it. Sure, it’s burned out, but they could preserve the facade and build a new structure inside. Costly? Yes. Doable? Yes. Will it happen? Hopefully.
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Oh, and I'd rather they just remove the sky bridge completely than replace it with a squatter version. It's interesting, currently, because it's so huge–kinda looks like a floating building–but there's really no need for it and it obstructs the view of the arch down 2nd. Or maybe they could replace it with a clear-glass sky bridge if there absolutely has to be a sky bridge.
^^That entire block with the M.A. Bell building is owned by the Dent Devil guy from Ballwin, as is the 800 S. Broadway 4th Street block on the other side of the highway. He likes parking lots that fill whole blocks a whole, whole lot...
Great looking project; very ambitious. I just don't know that the St. Louis economy can support another "district"-sized development.
I just got back from a couple of days in Nashville, and the amount of construction there is unbelievable. Its happening in literally every part of the city. But they have a booming economy, with people and businesses flocking there by the thousands. How can a slow-growth area like STL fill all these new proposals?
I just got back from a couple of days in Nashville, and the amount of construction there is unbelievable. Its happening in literally every part of the city. But they have a booming economy, with people and businesses flocking there by the thousands. How can a slow-growth area like STL fill all these new proposals?
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^^ oh, right, Chris mentioned that above. so then the Apteds are developing it into a garage on his behalf? Or is the Dent Devil guy developing it into a garage in concert with the Apted development? Or did he sell it to the Apteds and it just hasn't shown up on city records yet? Also, f*ck that Dent Devil guy.
The garage is not being built for Terry McDonald and Terry is not building it for himself. He is selling the land. The actual land use could change but a parking garage is most likely. All of the properties needed in the development are under contract and the sales will be finalized very soon. When that happens, City Records will reflect this.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Nov 24, 2019^^ oh, right, Chris mentioned that above. so then the Apteds are developing it into a garage on his behalf? Or is the Dent Devil guy developing it into a garage in concert with the Apted development? Or did he sell it to the Apteds and it just hasn't shown up on city records yet? Also, f*ck that Dent Devil guy.
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Not regarding your point specifically, as this is stated quite often over the last 2 years in StL.framer wrote: ↑Nov 24, 2019Great looking project; very ambitious. I just don't know that the St. Louis economy can support another "district"-sized development.
I just got back from a couple of days in Nashville, and the amount of construction there is unbelievable. Its happening in literally every part of the city. But they have a booming economy, with people and businesses flocking there by the thousands. How can a slow-growth area like STL fill all these new proposals?
Does anyone think that maybe, jusssssst maybe, after 60 years of complete neglect/apathy in the region towards urban development/any investment period in the city, with a region approaching 3 million people, there may be a bit of pent up organic demand for significant investment in the city?
Have same thoughts but also think a couple things will push for more of these developments seeing success than not. First on the jobs front, CORTEX commercial keeps adding commercial, lab space that spills into Foundry phase II/Cortex K and the regions lands a big outside tenant anchor for 909 Chestnut will be huge for downtown & the immediate area. Second, the hotel front will keep doing well as long as CVC breaks ground on convention center upgrades/expansion and nothing trips up the new MLS stadium.framer wrote: ↑Nov 24, 2019Great looking project; very ambitious. I just don't know that the St. Louis economy can support another "district"-sized development.
I just got back from a couple of days in Nashville, and the amount of construction there is unbelievable. Its happening in literally every part of the city. But they have a booming economy, with people and businesses flocking there by the thousands. How can a slow-growth area like STL fill all these new proposals?
St Louis might not be Nashville but out of the rest belt cities and peers is starting establish its own niche with a diverse economy that is supporting some of this development. Will it be enough to support both Lafayette Square, Jefferson connector, Square's innovation district, Laclede's landing, and now Chouteau Landing on downtown fringes? Especially when you consider the immediate downtown where you have everything from Shell/Jeff Arms/Railway exchange to fill & BPV phase III/300B Broadway/Cupples X proposed. Not sure but think we can significant development with at least three out of the five if momentum can keep up.
I think there's a general sentiment that people want, and are, moving back into urban areas. Especially younger folks. Seems like more of a build and pray mentality, but also there is a solid basis in the approach. If it looks good and has a good polish, and there is promise of a continuing development and neighborhood momentum, I think people feel that and embrace it. Look what happened with the Grove. Good press, bars and restaurants taking a chance. Strong residential footholds. The good weed out the bad and a strong neighborhood is realized once again. Of course not the same as CL, but the same could be said of so many areas around town that are becoming new urban anchors.
Well, if that's how the developers feel, than the building is all but gone. It is definitely possible to preserve and redevelop it. But it will never be "worth it" if they only look at the return on the building in isolation. The primary reason to save this building is that, without it, the entire north half of their "district" would be reduced to just one historic block, and thus will be far less interesting and appealing. And demolishing this building and erecting a typical bland new modern residential building to replace it will have the same effect, and greatly reduce the visibility of the historic complex from downtown and the highway. Either way, losing this building will lower the return for the other portions of the development project.chriss752 wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2019Early plans have the remnants of Servco, the Housing Authority owned building at 2nd and Chouteau, a factory building bounded by 2nd, Gratiot, 3rd and Lombard, and a loading dock on Lombard Street all being demolished. Mostly because they would cost more to renovate than to demolish. The burned Crunden Martin building is tricky as they want to redevelop it but aren’t sure if it’s possible or worth it. Sure, it’s burned out, but they could preserve the facade and build a new structure inside. Costly? Yes. Doable? Yes. Will it happen? Hopefully.
If they really want to save this building, they need to hire consultant(s) who specialize in and are committed to preservation of deteriorated and damaged historic structures, and not firms who are ambivalent and will just tell the developer what they think they want to hear, or who have contractors and the demolition vultures whispering in their other ear...
I think there are some businesses still down in this area. Will they be moving?
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Interesting.chriss752 wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2019Early plans have the remnants of Servco, the Housing Authority owned building at 2nd and Chouteau, a factory building bounded by 2nd, Gratiot, 3rd and Lombard, and a loading dock on Lombard Street all being demolished. Mostly because they would cost more to renovate than to demolish. The burned Crunden Martin building is tricky as they want to redevelop it but aren’t sure if it’s possible or worth it. Sure, it’s burned out, but they could preserve the facade and build a new structure inside. Costly? Yes. Doable? Yes. Will it happen? Hopefully.
The remaining portion of Servco doesn't look like anything special.
The Housing Authority building is three stories and looks like it could be repurposed into apartments.
Those buildings off Lombard actually look like they could be pretty cool, particularly for a brewery or similar use. There's a portion of that cluster of buildings that could go, but the rest of them should probably be saved.
I'd be interested to see what the developers/city do with 1st and 2nd Streets. Once you get north of Cedar, they turn into weird, creepy paths that lead to the Arch grounds.
Just checking out Google Streetview, Chouteau's Landing is way better connected to Broadway than I realized. Gratiot, Lombard and Chouteau all offer entry points under the highway.
I was struck by that as well. And not only are there many street connections, there is a lot of accessible space under the elevated portion of the highway that could be used to tie Chouteau's Landing to 4th St. / Broadway. It would of course require a large investment in beautification, lighting, and security improvements to make that space hospitable to pedestrians, and less attractive for vagrant storage, but it is possible.debaliviere wrote: ↑Nov 25, 2019Just checking out Google Streetview, Chouteau's Landing is way better connected to Broadway than I realized. Gratiot, Lombard and Chouteau all offer entry points under the highway.
Uhm...which building(s) are "the remaining portion of Servco"?debaliviere wrote: ↑Nov 25, 2019The remaining portion of Servco doesn't look like anything special.
The Housing Authority building is three stories and looks like it could be repurposed into apartments.
Those buildings off Lombard actually look like they could be pretty cool, particularly for a brewery or similar use. There's a portion of that cluster of buildings that could go, but the rest of them should probably be saved.
I'd be interested to see what the developers/city do with 1st and 2nd Streets. Once you get north of Cedar, they turn into weird, creepy paths that lead to the Arch grounds.
I definitely agree about the 3-story Housing Authority building (NW corner of 2nd / Chouteau), especially since the site plan shows it being replaced by a surface parking lot...
And it appears that the only proposed new development north of Cedar (for this phase anyway) is a large surface parking lot.
chriss752 wrote: ↑Nov 23, 2019I didn't go up into a helicopter or plane and I didn't fly a drone, so here is a rendering of the district under the current redevelopment plan...
Aerial zoomed-1.jpg
I climbed into my drone, flew up, and took a comparison aerial for ya. I had to fight a strong updraft over the river while I was snapping pics, so the elevation may be a bit higher than the rendering...
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I was struck by how connected it was to the Arch grounds actually. 1st and 2nd street are fully connected and it appears we have re-done 2nd street's pedestrian uses underneath the highway, which is a weird choice.urbanitas wrote: ↑Nov 27, 2019I was struck by that as well. And not only are there many street connections, there is a lot of accessible space under the elevated portion of the highway that could be used to tie Chouteau's Landing to 4th St. / Broadway. It would of course require a large investment in beautification, lighting, and security improvements to make that space hospitable to pedestrians, and less attractive for vagrant storage, but it is possible.debaliviere wrote: ↑Nov 25, 2019Just checking out Google Streetview, Chouteau's Landing is way better connected to Broadway than I realized. Gratiot, Lombard and Chouteau all offer entry points under the highway.
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It's a one-story brick building on 1st Street, right next to the giant power line tower thingy, just south of the highway between Cedar and Cerre. Basically it's the northern-most structure in Chouteau's Landing.urbanitas wrote: ↑Nov 27, 2019Uhm...which building(s) are "the remaining portion of Servco"?debaliviere wrote: ↑Nov 25, 2019The remaining portion of Servco doesn't look like anything special.
The Housing Authority building is three stories and looks like it could be repurposed into apartments.
Those buildings off Lombard actually look like they could be pretty cool, particularly for a brewery or similar use. There's a portion of that cluster of buildings that could go, but the rest of them should probably be saved.
I'd be interested to see what the developers/city do with 1st and 2nd Streets. Once you get north of Cedar, they turn into weird, creepy paths that lead to the Arch grounds.
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Yep. Haven't seen anything about the extent of the damage yet, but the FD was describing it as "fully engulfed" and there's better video on KMOV that makes it pretty clear it was a big one. I understood from earlier in the thread the developers already wanted to demolish this structure anyway, so I guess that just got a little easier. 
Doesn't sound like anyone was hurt. I hope all are okay.
https://www.kmov.com/news/firefighters- ... f6f7c.html
Doesn't sound like anyone was hurt. I hope all are okay.https://www.kmov.com/news/firefighters- ... f6f7c.html
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I just hope to god the construction lives up to the hype. Could be worse, but it's still a bummer. We need to drown the fire headlines in a flood tide of construction.