chaifetz10 wrote:There's absolutely no way 45 is even close to reality. BPV MAY bring in 4-5 mil, but even that would be a best case scenario during the playoffs. Realistically it's been doing 2-4 mil a month on average.
I saw the KMOV story on the news this morning and the BPV haul mentioned was $4.5 million for the month so obviously the earlier KMOX report was a mistake. It's a good story and worth viewing...
Another interesting thing that the Copia manager mentioned besides the damage from BPV was the negative impact of the shootings and other incidents that plagued the area awhile back... I also had thought about that as well as the possible impact of other burgeoning districts like the Grove and Cherokee Street, etc.. Individual businesses come and go and nightlife scenes shift, so I'm not so worried about the particular identity Wash Ave. takes, but I do agree with the Copia guy that it's crucial for Washington Ave to thrive if downtown is to remain successful.
terence d wrote: Something I've thought about for years now: "How will things truly get better?"
I can't come up with a good answer. I love the city, I want to see it flourish, I want to see a true renaissance. I want to see downtown office space have serious growth. I think this is key for downtown.
So, not a loaded question here, and not directed at only you (RedOctober), but would be interested to learn something I don't know and help me feel more optimistic about things, downtown specifically: "How will things actually improve?"
I've lived downtown since the summer of 2008, but putting down real roots has been a little hard for me b/c I'm not just not seeing how things are really going to improve. I think the best hope I have right now for real improvement are:
Hope local business leaders feel that a vibrant downtown is good for them, pull together and make something happen.
I hear Millennials like urban areas, hope they fill it droves similar to how previous generations filled the suburbs.
The startup scene (or some positive business scene) hits a grand slam and we get some serious positive momentum going on downtown.
These are far from sure things in my humble opinion. So what am I missing? I'd love to be convinced, cause I'd like to hang around and see a more vibrant downtown.
Do you feel like things have been slipping in recent years or just treading water/not progressing as fast as we'd like?
Its hard to say. It's complicated and there are many forces at play. I believe the replies to this when I posted it in the other thread were that items 2 and 3 in my list above are happening and that if you compare DT to what it was in the 90s we've come a long way. I would counter that:
Although we do continue to see population growth downtown, its far from droves.
The startup scene seems to have some early minor success stories but far too early in the game to say it's had significant impact.
Since the 90s downtown has definitely improved residentially, but, if I'm understanding/recalling correctly, we've lost more jobs/office occupancy since than increased resident population. I think first and foremost we need a strong/populated central *business* district rather than a residential component. (Yes, I'm aware of the "residents bring jobs" argument but not convinced of that argument).
I don't want to come off as a downer here. My original post was a reply to a statement of how improved DT will be in years to come. From time to time I see that sort of assertion and I'm always very interested in what makes them so sure. Like with many things, only time will tell I suppose.
Driving down Washington Ave this morning. A thought occurred to me. Relatively Locust / mid town are far more vibrant now then Washington Avenue. * I.E.... Downtown has servery lost its mojo!~!
How many empty store fronts are now located in the CBD , and Wash Ave Corridors? I counted 60 +
How many truly innovate restaurants / clubs / business have opened DT this year ( excluding BPV ) I count zero... Ohhhhh I love Yogurt stores..Truly cutting edge...
How many business have closed this year.. Don't be a jive turkey and tell me business come ago... I have a idea... Perhaps DT needs another sports bar.. Yea another sports bar folks..
When was the last class A bldg developed? 25 + years.. I believe Met SQ.. 1989 * The same year the Berlin wall fell.
* Force property owners to maintain there buildings. Enforce existing building codes
*Legal Pot. Make the landing a little Amsterdam
*Fix the side walks and plant some trees.
* Add a couple of community boards around Wash Ave
* Encourage pop up Art Gallerias , Restaurants ,and store front * Encourage the city to subsidize all empty store fronts on Wash Ave as pop up business.
* Free parking on weekends
* Fix street lights
*Consolidate DT into a single Alderman-ward
* Get some balls and admit that DT has serious problems and is on a significant downward trajectory.
These are easy fixes that wont break the bank and may actually bring people back...
prophett wrote:Driving down Washington Ave this morning. A thought occurred to me. Relatively Locust / mid town are far more vibrant now then Washington Avenue. * I.E.... Downtown has servery lost its mojo!~!
How many empty store fronts are now located in the CBD , and Wash Ave Corridors? I counted 60 +
How many truly innovate restaurants / clubs / business have opened DT this year ( excluding BPV ) I count zero... Ohhhhh I love Yogurt stores..Truly cutting edge...
How many business have closed this year.. Don't be a jive turkey and tell me business come ago... I have a idea... Perhaps DT needs another sports bar.. Yea another sports bar folks..
When was the last class A bldg developed? 25 + years.. I believe Met SQ.. 1989 * The same year the Berlin wall fell.
DT, It's a joke!!
Some may consider Cupples 9 a class A office building. Nevertheless, I get your point.
prophett wrote:Driving down Washington Ave this morning. A thought occurred to me. Relatively Locust / mid town are far more vibrant now then Washington Avenue. * I.E.... Downtown has servery lost its mojo!~!
How many empty store fronts are now located in the CBD , and Wash Ave Corridors? I counted 60 +
How many truly innovate restaurants / clubs / business have opened DT this year ( excluding BPV ) I count zero... Ohhhhh I love Yogurt stores..Truly cutting edge...
How many business have closed this year.. Don't be a jive turkey and tell me business come ago... I have a idea... Perhaps DT needs another sports bar.. Yea another sports bar folks..
When was the last class A bldg developed? 25 + years.. I believe Met SQ.. 1989 * The same year the Berlin wall fell.
DT, It's a joke!!
Your credibility was lost when you stated Midtown/Locust is more vibrant than Wash Ave. The activity and the diversity of businesses is far greater than anything on Locust. Unoccupied storefronts are less abundant than they were 5 years ago.
You are primarily making statements based on the amount of clubs and music venues. Washington Ave has been there done that. It's moving on to more residential based businesses. Yeah, a neighborhood. Locust will soon see the same fate one day. Let me guess the Loop was better in the early 90's than today. Yeah right.
Sorry if your club scheme was priced out of Wash Ave but don't hate on it and make inaccurate statements.
Im honestly glad that there are no more clubs on Wash Ave because they were more than a nuisance more ways than one. Crime will definitely scare patrons away or out of towners thats always the worse case scenario that exactly happened when the Cardinals hosted the Dodgers. Of course media will amp it up as well. I believe downtown will eventually find its mojo in the coming future as some stated business's do come and go some are more successful than others but thats how it goes every company is competing for the same dollar. I like BPV and i don't see it as a cancer to downtown i just think other business's need to be more creative in retaining their current customers and acquiring new ones. I do think downtown streets need more lighting though there are some areas that are a bit sketchy to scary. Other than that i believe in downtown and its other business's downtown its business's they just need to be more collaborative with each other. T Rex alone is a boon as these smaller start ups turn into small companies then turn into medium sized companies then turn into giant companies our leaders just need to give them a reason to stay and invest in downtown ..
I do wish The state would make marijuana cafes Legal On the landing. For example the sate could make a law that allow the city to open 5 marijuana cafes and one strip club on the landing. We already have a casino there so it would not be to much out of the norm. Also that area of the city is cut off from downtown by the high way so maybe one advantage of that would harder for NIMBY people to complain about it.
This is my opinion why the WashAve area is struggling right now and has been for a couple years:
A) minus Sen Thai and Blood & Sand (one block off) - there is not a restaurant or retail establishment worth driving down there to patronize. Sure, Robust and Pi are good, but they have locations west of downtown that are more convenient to the majority of St Louis metro. Even if you expand a couple blocks, I'd only include Rooster and Baileys Range as worth the commute. The product on Wash Ave or nearby is simply not good.
B) BPV, the Cupples Warehouse district, and area around Busch are stealing customers away with convenience, better venues, and quality product.
C) the existing and former tenants on Wash Ave are complacent/lazy. They're are used to surviving on built in traffic from conventions, sporting events, random parades/festivals, and the downtown daytime office population. When is the last time you've seen an existing restaurant remodel? Invest in their restaurant? Add an exciting, well know chef? Revamp their menus?
Now that the sporting event traffic and a good portion of their daytime office population has been taken from them due to new competition, what do they do? Cry to the media and refuse to change does not make people want to spend their money with you.
D) office vacancy is the worst in the region. I think it's 20 percent vacant and is one of (if not the) cheapest in the metro area. I will say: there is opportunity here especially with the conversions of office to residential.
E) new residential supply is minimal. Sure, there is some great projects on the way but to turn around the CBD, you'll need thousands of units to come online, not hundreds.
F) the core of St Louis (CWE/CORTEX to the east, Maplewood to the south, Clayton/Brentwood/R Heights to the west, and U City to the north) continues to improve and grow at a much higher rate. New residential and commercial developements, good/great schools, safer environments, convenient to whole metro area, easier to attract employees, etc.
G) the Ferguson riots. Simply, white county people are avoiding some areas that they were willing to go to before. I will say, this is a minimal impact in my opinion. I just think it makes some people think twice on their plans for the day or night.
H) change in government leadership. We need city officials that relate with the young professionals and entrepreneurs in order to attract them to work and live downtown. Not saying the current regime is bad. Just needs new blood. It's become stale.
The bad economy is not an excuse. Every city or trade area is subject to the same macro economical problems.
I love the idea of making the landing a mini Amsterdam.
When the east side clubs started closing a few years ago, that pushed those patrons west onto wash ave. that crowd along with the increased police response, which was necessary, scared a lot of white patrons and others away.
Now, I don't feel this is an issue anymore and those crowds are no longer there, but many whites and wealthier blacks have not come back.
Washington and downtown as a whole needs to emulate Cherokee street. Fortune teller bar, athlete eats, etc. I'm sorry but Copia is a tad Hoosier to me, the weird decorations and feel of the back patio, quality of food has prevented me from going back. Look at the level of blood and sand or death in the afternoon, those are truly inventive and hold a higher standard.
What are some other creative ideas or concepts that would attract people? I heard the retail space in the board of education building on locust were being turned into residential lofts! That shouldn't be allowed.
I also think the retail spaces are almost too large and should be broken up into smaller shops.
More police cameras everywhere and more cops walking wash ave too, would be helpful.
Even allowing startups to occupy retail space should be allowed though. Look at locker dome. Perhaps down the road they can turned into actual retail, but a downtown with vacant storefronts does nothing to attract people and make them feel safe.
Do you guys think Cherokee street and The grove are stealing business from wash ave? Even just 4 years ago the grove and Cherokee street were not nearly as strong as they are now.
Did anybody ever been to wash ave at night recent and if you did what were the crowds like?
^Yes both the Grove and Cherokee are stealing business. I believe Lola blamed the Grove more than BPV when it closed. I blame the shrinking job base, increase in food trucks, etc for the decline of the daytime lunch crowd.
I was on Wash on Saturday and the crowd was still pretty good. Much less than say 5 years ago, or even two years aog. Given it was a pretty nice evening still something to worry. When you really notice the hit on Wash is during the week. Its dead almost every weekday evening, unless there is a conference. Two to three years ago that was not the case. I dont think these places can continue with just one busy Saturday evening.
Like others have said, and i agree, I don't really care if the these places close and are replaced with more neighborhood freindly type places. As long as they are replaced and not sitting empty. I wish places like strange donuts, tim hortons, or more unique places would open. I just dont see that happening anytime soon
kbshapiro wrote:This is my opinion why the WashAve area is struggling right now and has been for a couple years:
A) minus Sen Thai and Blood & Sand (one block off) - there is not a restaurant or retail establishment worth driving down there to patronize. Sure, Robust and Pi are good, but they have locations west of downtown that are more convenient to the majority of St Louis metro. Even if you expand a couple blocks, I'd only include Rooster and Baileys Range as worth the commute. The product on Wash Ave or nearby is simply not good.
B) BPV, the Cupples Warehouse district, and area around Busch are stealing customers away with convenience, better venues, and quality product.
C) the existing and former tenants on Wash Ave are complacent/lazy. They're are used to surviving on built in traffic from conventions, sporting events, random parades/festivals, and the downtown daytime office population. When is the last time you've seen an existing restaurant remodel? Invest in their restaurant? Add an exciting, well know chef? Revamp their menus?
Now that the sporting event traffic and a good portion of their daytime office population has been taken from them due to new competition, what do they do? Cry to the media and refuse to change does not make people want to spend their money with you.
D) office vacancy is the worst in the region. I think it's 20 percent vacant and is one of (if not the) cheapest in the metro area. I will say: there is opportunity here especially with the conversions of office to residential.
E) new residential supply is minimal. Sure, there is some great projects on the way but to turn around the CBD, you'll need thousands of units to come online, not hundreds.
F) the core of St Louis (CWE/CORTEX to the east, Maplewood to the south, Clayton/Brentwood/R Heights to the west, and U City to the north) continues to improve and grow at a much higher rate. New residential and commercial developements, good/great schools, safer environments, convenient to whole metro area, easier to attract employees, etc.
G) the Ferguson riots. Simply, white county people are avoiding some areas that they were willing to go to before. I will say, this is a minimal impact in my opinion. I just think it makes some people think twice on their plans for the day or night.
H) change in government leadership. We need city officials that relate with the young professionals and entrepreneurs in order to attract them to work and live downtown. Not saying the current regime is bad. Just needs new blood. It's become stale.
The bad economy is not an excuse. Every city or trade area is subject to the same macro economical problems.
-KBS
What about Prime 1000 and Mango? I personally think they are 2 of the best restaurants in the city.
Redbrickcity wrote:Do you guys think Cherokee street and The grove are stealing business from wash ave? Even just 4 years ago the grove and Cherokee street were not nearly as strong as they are now.
Did anybody ever been to wash ave at night recent and if you did what were the crowds like?
Not really. I have been to the Grove and Cherokee recently and they were both lacked activity. I think BPV is the culprit.
The several times I have been down to Cherokee with my family, the restaurants were ghost towns. I think the dual culprits are BPV and the bad weather.
The Grove seems to do great business on weekend nights. But on any day it's a total ghost town. And Sunday-Wednesday seems pretty tame.
Also, neither The Grove nor Cherokee seem to compete for the Sports Bar / Sporting Event crowd. That crowd is either going to go Wash. Ave.; Laclede's Landing/Lumiere; or BPV/Cupples/S.Broadway
bigmclargehuge wrote:Yeah those two are very good. Ive heard rumors of Mango closing? Any truth to those?
I haven't heard. Be careful about spreading rumors like that since it can unnecessarily harm business. Where did u hear that?
Everytime I go there they have a decent crowd.
Sorry dont want to hurt them as they are one of the only few good places on Wash. It could help business as people go more to keep it open. I think i read it in a nextstl comment if i remember
^Good to hear. Now we need like five more places just like that. I hope the Mosaic spot fills in soon. Actually scratch that. I want the corner spots a tucker and Wash to fill in first. Those being empty have always bothered and confused me
I would also like to mention Bridge and Hiro as being pretty damn good. Bridge is certainly a destination restaurant. Over Under has never disappointed as well.
It not like it's certainly not a restaurant desert on Wash Ave. Still some solid options that across the entire spectrum.
bigmclargehuge wrote:^Good to hear. Now we need like five more places just like that. I hope the Mosaic spot fills in soon. Actually scratch that. I want the corner spots a tucker and Wash to fill in first. Those being empty have always bothered and confused me
I'm glad that the bbq place didn't work out at the Mosaic spot.... it seemed an iffy venture from the start and hopefully this will allow something special to go in from the start. I also wonder if we'll hear something soon on Bailey's planned bbq joint on Olive now that the S. Grand Rooster has crowed.
roger wyoming II wrote:I'm glad that the bbq place didn't work out at the Mosaic spot.... it seemed an iffy venture from the start and hopefully this will allow something special to go in from the start. I also wonder if we'll hear something soon on Bailey's planned bbq joint on Olive now that the S. Grand Rooster has crowed.
