urbanSTL

I think Cahokia Mounds is a special place, but it is a small museum; there really isn't any way to argue that. 

I've said on this forum before that I believe Cahokia Mounds should be a National Park and I've supported local efforts to get it to that status, though I don't believe they'll actually go anywhere. 

All I'm saying is that a downtown natural history museum with a proper exhibit on the history of this city before the French and Spanish could be neat.

An alternate idea for the Post Office: leave the sorting facility and postal services, but rent out stalls in the main lobby to arts and crafts businesses and purveyors of tourist tchotchkes. Make the main lobby and adjacent windows and disused spaces a little market hall and throw the doors open on game days, summer concert days, and the like. Leave it a post office, but one with some unusual extras, somewhat like the Saigon Central Post Office. Getting people in the door will be the trick, but it could be a nice little incubator for local artists to sell smaller items. And given the location, maybe you could get the major museums and sports teams to sell some postcards and promotional items there too. Assuming the Postal Service could rent out space there, that is. (Which I'm guessing they can, since Neighbors Credit Union has a branch inside.)

They're currently not wrong. I don't think St. Louis has to be what's written there forever, though. 

No, I guess I would say we don't. 

We do have some ugly surface lots and blighted buildings in the surrounding areas, though. 

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

If you walk down Olive past the railway exchange and chemical you get a feeling like it's blocks, even though its not. 

Yep, I was there on Olive today.  It's just terrible. Don't forget the ATT building.  Let's face it, "entire blocks" really isn't that far off. 

I think part of the problem is that downtown is so much larger than the other downtowns mentioned. The region has really left downtown and the city for dead in comparison to other regions. There are just way too many vacant lots, antiquated infrastructure, empty buildings, and really just a feeling that nobody gives a damn. It's unfortunate, but that is the current reality. Unfortunately, a lot of city leadership seems to be under the impression that downtown and the central corridor doesn't need anymore help, but going to other similar sized regions it's obvious that the urban core is still struggling.

^ yep. The size of downtown is what gives St. Louis an enormous opportunity to have a world class downtown, but it’s also what makes it feel so hollow and depressing right now. It was built to become a NYC or Chicago, but right now we’re more like Cincinnati or Baltimore


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CG91 wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

^ yep. The size of downtown is what gives St. Louis an enormous opportunity to have a world class downtown, but it’s also what makes it feel so hollow and depressing right now. It was built to become a NYC or Chicago, but right now we’re more like Cincinnati or Baltimore


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I got a similar vibe in Detroit, because St. Louis was built for a much larger, denser, and more urban population it ends up feeling like a empty big city. The big old grand buildings, wide boulevards, imposing gilded age architecture gives off a very urban vibe that many visitors are pleasantly surprised by, but the hollowed out population density makes it feel empty. When I got to places like Nashville, Charlotte, or Austin it's all just right there in a nice cute little modern hub, but when you drive 5 minutes from downtown it turns into post war suburban development very fast.

goat314 wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

I think part of the problem is that downtown is so much larger than the other downtowns mentioned. The region has really left downtown and the city for dead in comparison to other regions. There are just way too many vacant lots, antiquated infrastructure, empty buildings, and really just a feeling that nobody gives a damn. It's unfortunate, but that is the current reality. Unfortunately, a lot of city leadership seems to be under the impression that downtown and the central corridor doesn't need anymore help, but going to other similar sized regions it's obvious that the urban core is still struggling.

I've been in DT Charlotte a lot and, with no data at hand, I'd guess that DT CLT is like 1/3 the size of DT STL.  Consider the distance between the Arch and City Park. Both are downtown yet 1.5 miles apart. Again, no comparative data at hand, but that seems like a huge distance in the downtown of a mid-sized city.

^ Sounds cool.  Pair with some low rent food stalls/incubator, retail market, it's be pretty nifty.

soulardx wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

goat314 wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

I think part of the problem is that downtown is so much larger than the other downtowns mentioned. The region has really left downtown and the city for dead in comparison to other regions. There are just way too many vacant lots, antiquated infrastructure, empty buildings, and really just a feeling that nobody gives a damn. It's unfortunate, but that is the current reality. Unfortunately, a lot of city leadership seems to be under the impression that downtown and the central corridor doesn't need anymore help, but going to other similar sized regions it's obvious that the urban core is still struggling.

I've been in DT Charlotte a lot and, with no data at hand, I'd guess that DT CLT is like 1/3 the size of DT STL.  Consider the distance between the Arch and City Park. Both are downtown yet 1.5 miles apart. Again, no comparative data at hand, but that seems like a huge distance in the downtown of a mid-sized city.

Seriously, I was just in Austin a couple months ago and their downtown is about the size of Clayton. Clayton might have just as much historic architecture too. The neighborhoods right outside downtown Austin looked kind of like a tacky version of Maplewood. It was booming with people and development though.

goat314 wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

soulardx wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

goat314 wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

I think part of the problem is that downtown is so much larger than the other downtowns mentioned. The region has really left downtown and the city for dead in comparison to other regions. There are just way too many vacant lots, antiquated infrastructure, empty buildings, and really just a feeling that nobody gives a damn. It's unfortunate, but that is the current reality. Unfortunately, a lot of city leadership seems to be under the impression that downtown and the central corridor doesn't need anymore help, but going to other similar sized regions it's obvious that the urban core is still struggling.

I've been in DT Charlotte a lot and, with no data at hand, I'd guess that DT CLT is like 1/3 the size of DT STL.  Consider the distance between the Arch and City Park. Both are downtown yet 1.5 miles apart. Again, no comparative data at hand, but that seems like a huge distance in the downtown of a mid-sized city.

Seriously, I was just in Austin a couple months ago and their downtown is about the size of Clayton. Clayton might have just as much historic architecture too. The neighborhoods right outside downtown Austin looked kind of like a tacky version of Maplewood. It was booming with people and development though.

I felt the same about Austin when I was there last fall.  Strolling around downtown and other urbanish neighborhoods, I also kept thinking - where are all the people that supposedly moved here? I don't deny people moved there, but...where were they?  (And this was just ahead of the F1 race there.)

Now in  STL, when you drive highway 40 from Brentwood to DT, that *feels* big city, especially from the CWE to DT.  It looks dense, it looks urban, it looks like a built environment (unless you are on the streets in some of those areas and see how desolate the foot traffic is. LOL)

soulardx wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

goat314 wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

soulardx wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

I've been in DT Charlotte a lot and, with no data at hand, I'd guess that DT CLT is like 1/3 the size of DT STL.  Consider the distance between the Arch and City Park. Both are downtown yet 1.5 miles apart. Again, no comparative data at hand, but that seems like a huge distance in the downtown of a mid-sized city.

Seriously, I was just in Austin a couple months ago and their downtown is about the size of Clayton. Clayton might have just as much historic architecture too. The neighborhoods right outside downtown Austin looked kind of like a tacky version of Maplewood. It was booming with people and development though.

I felt the same about Austin when I was there last fall.  Strolling around downtown and other urbanish neighborhoods, I also kept thinking - where are all the people that supposedly moved here? I don't deny people moved there, but...where were they?  (And this was just ahead of the F1 race there.)

Now in  STL, when you drive highway 40 from Brentwood to DT, that *feels* big city, especially from the CWE to DT.  It looks dense, it looks urban, it looks like a built environment (unless you are on the streets in some of those areas and see how desolate the foot traffic is. LOL)

Most of them are on the outskirts in St. Charles type sprawl. The traffic coming in was horrendous, but there were new subdivisions popping up left and right. Austin really benefits from being a large college town and the state capitol. If St. Louis was like Austin, the state capitol would be on Jefferson and Mizzou would be on Grand. I'd imagine we'd have a very busy downtown teeming with young people if that was the case. What is really interesting about Austin and Nashville is that that for them to be so young and vibrant hubs, they still have yet to get any kind of light rail transit off the ground despite massive growth. 

Downtown CLT is about 2.19 sq miles, encircled by highways but as you can see much of it is isn’t really hi rise downtown and a lot of greenery. Our downtown, or what I consider downtown, which is river to Jefferson, Cole to 64 is about 1.80 sq miles but if you take official boundary of the downtown and downtown west neighborhoods it’s 2.16 sq miles.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

Downtown CLT is about 2.19 sq miles, encircled by highways but as you can see much of it is isn’t really hi rise downtown and a lot of greenery.    Our downtown, or what I consider downtown, which is river to Jefferson, Cole to 64 is about 1.80 sq miles but if you take official boundary of the downtown and downtown west neighborhoods it’s 2.16 sq miles.

Thank you for the image. Everything north of America Stadium is indeed mostly regular houses/condos and parks. Not densely urban at all. certainly not downtownish. And that's like a third of DT CLT.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Mar 08, 2023

Downtown CLT is about 2.19 sq miles, encircled by highways but as you can see much of it is isn’t really hi rise downtown and a lot of greenery. Our downtown, or what I consider downtown, which is river to Jefferson, Cole to 64 is about 1.80 sq miles but if you take official boundary of the downtown and downtown west neighborhoods it’s 2.16 sq miles.

That's very interesting and yes Charlotte is a very green, suburban type city. Look at the aerial it does appear that Charlotte has fair deal of townhouse type development. I think that would work well for St. Louis to infill some of the voids downtown. Street diets and more greenery would work wonders for downtown too. What's interesting is that places like Charlotte and Austin also don't have the slew of large historic downtown like buildings stretching to Grand. Grand Center has potential be it's own little downtown itself.