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PostFeb 24, 2023#4726

^ & ^^  I think Spreadsheetwizard and Dblnsouthcity are both making great points.   When my wife worked in ATT tower once upon time and was a single parent to boot what she was looking for during lunch break or even as a sake of convenience was and is very different from say a tourist, convention attendee and or even a business traveler like myself who will likely look for the hotel amenities & a higher end eatery at night.    

The reality is like everywhere else the daytime office worker has a smaller presence in the cores then in the past.    Don't know the solution for the daytime worker going forward.  Does St. Louis pursue an effort to try and concentrate office workforce into smaller footprint to get the density needed for the businesses that cater to them?  Which is probably like herding cats with all the various players, employers and developers.   Do you do the route of subsidy for a certain retail type and argue as way to keep and attract future employers?  Say an x dollar grant to build out a retail bay or offer rent per diem which in St. Louis case you can make the argument that every new employee coming back downtime from the outer region is a earnings tax gain, a plus or at least offsetting some of the associated subsidies 

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PostFeb 24, 2023#4727

I understand the gist of this, and in the past STL has had a lot of small business help available.  I think we honestly need to stay the course for the time being, see how this all shakes out.  Make getting a business and liquor license streamlined, people will take the plunge.  But no one knows what the end game for office space is at this point.  Are we permanent hybrid?  Will we want to re-normalize office life in 5-10 years?  

Smaller footprints, hybridized personnel and maybe even 4 day work weeks are the immediate future.  But we may go back.  I actually predict we will by 2030, but in a much more euro/healthy work - life balance than before. 

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PostMar 01, 2023#4728

eee123 wrote:
Nov 09, 2022
mikenewell48 wrote:
Oct 27, 2022
Has Mills properties sold city view to Blue Magma Properties? New signs out front
The new sign calls it Gateway at CityPark. They had a "Gateway Towers" sign up for like a day, then took it down. A week or so later, the new one showed up. The Gateway Towers website redirects to the Gateway at CityPark site.
Odd. Maybe they found out that Gateway Towers was trademarked or something? Anyway, hopefully Blue Magma is better than Mills and can slow down the regular shootings outside of their buildings.
We're on to a third name. This must be a really elaborate game of "spot the difference."

They're kind of randomly painting parts of that tower at 15th and Olive and then stopping. This company seems a bit amateur-ish.
IMG_20230301_142527011.jpg (1.51MiB)

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PostMar 01, 2023#4729

Lol

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PostMar 05, 2023#4730

Going to try and carry a discussion over from a MLS stadium and district.  

There is two thoughts that i have that resolve around conventions and sports that are not silver bullets by any stretch of the imagination but huge in my opinion for St Louis going forward none the less.   Downtown vibrancy in the future will depend immensely on an ever mix of office, residents, sports, conventions, entertainment.  St. Louis has some great opportunity.

St. Louis City should absolutely used some of its Rams Settlement Money to make sure convention center phase II goes forward even if county balks at its share.   St. Louis has a central location with strong mid tier convention business and a national icon to boot.   Conventions fill hotel rooms, fill tables and bar stools and tax coffers.  It also requires periodic investment long overdue

Second, forget NFL.   St. Louis now has three stadiums with three pro teams downtown with great transit access and plenty of hotel rooms.  I have no doubt you could the make creative changes to Enterprise center to accomondate a NBA team; specifically off court facilities such as more locker rooms, fitness and back office.   You would literally would have 4 pro teams in 3 stadiums within 6 blocks hosting almost 180 games/events a year (Cardinals 81 home games, Blues/NBA another 80 and City 20ish games?).   Pro sports drawing 10,000 to 40,000 downtown an event every other day is huge impact none the less.  Believe NBA would be a much better fit then ever trying to get NFL back.

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PostMar 05, 2023#4731

^Don't forget XFL.

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PostMar 05, 2023#4732

Conventions and ball games don't make a vibrant city. Residents and creative businesses do. 

Name a world-class city that has stadiums and convention centers as a major presence in their city centers. I'm a sports fan as big as anyone, but these businesses are regressive by nature. Invest in housing, education, and public safety if you want vibrancy. The goal is Amsterdam, not Arlington. 

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PostMar 05, 2023#4733

RuskiSTL wrote:
Mar 05, 2023
Conventions and ball games don't make a vibrant city. Residents and creative businesses do. 

Name a world-class city that has stadiums and convention centers as a major presence in their city centers. I'm a sports fan as big as anyone, but these businesses are regressive by nature. Invest in housing, education, and public safety if you want vibrancy. The goal is Amsterdam, not Arlington. 


Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, etc. definitely have stadiums in their city centers.

sc4mayor
sc4mayor

PostMar 05, 2023#4734

^ Denver too.  Downtown St. Louis seems large enough to support sports and conventions as well as residents and businesses.  Not sure why it's always an either or choice around here...
Invest in housing, education, and public safety if you want vibrancy. The goal is Amsterdam, not Arlington.
Just days ago St. Louis police officers agreed to a new contract that will see them receive their biggest raises in decades.  Last year St. Louis voters passed a bond measure that opened up $160 million in funding for improvements to public school buildings and SLPS teachers saw raises that now have them the second highest paid teachers in Missouri.  The Jones administration seems to be using quite a bit of that pandemic money for affordable housing and other needed programs.

We can't have sports and conventions downtown too?

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PostMar 05, 2023#4735

Not many stories about over 150,000 people in downtown over Friday and Saturday and nothing happened expect a good time.

PostMar 05, 2023#4736

https://www.stltoday.com/opinion/editor ... user-share



Take a good look at the two photos accompanying this editorial. They are of young men wielding handguns in a verbal confrontation that broke out after a crowded balloon-release vigil for victims of last week’s fatal car crash on Forest Park Avenue at Grand Boulevard. No arrests were made — and in fact, it’s not clear that any state or local laws were broken, even though the situation clearly endangered lives. This is the mind-boggling reality of Missouri’s wild-wild-west legal landscape regarding firearms today.

The incident, captured by Post-Dispatch photographer David Carson, stemmed from an argument between several people at the event. The word “disrespect” was bandied about, which in a normal setting might prompt at worst a fistfight. But this being Missouri, several of the arguers were armed. And not just the ones in the photos. Carson recounted to us that, even before he spotted the two men’s exposed guns, it appeared many others in the crowd were carrying firearms in their pants or hip pouches.

People are also reading…


It’s likely the two police officers initially on hand noticed, as well, and were aware of the explosive situation at the emotional event. But what could they do? This is Missouri.

The state’s Republican-controlled Legislature has spent the past two decades methodically unwinding state restrictions on guns, and even attempting to block federal restrictions. In that time, the state’s firearms death rate has risen from about the national average to one of America’s highest.

Many Missourians may not even be aware that almost any adult (and, after bizarre legislative action recently, arguably even minors) can purchase handguns from strangers, no questions asked, and carry them around in public with no permit.

It wasn’t always this way. Up until the early 2000s, Missouri had a universal background check requirement for gun purchases that had been in place for eight decades. The Legislature repealed that law in 2007, effectively creating a loophole that allows felons to buy guns by simply going to private sellers instead of licensed dealers. In the years that followed, the Legislature aggressively revamped the statutes to make it ever easier for Missourians to obtain and carry guns in public.

Today, a St. Louis police officer who sees someone who is clearly armed would be on shaky legal footing if he confronts that person for that reason alone. He can’t even demand to see a permit since they aren’t required in order to carry guns in Missouri.

In other words, officers have to wait until the shooting starts. No wonder Missouri has the fourth-highest firearms death rate of any state in America.

Victims of these laws include the student and teacher killed by a mentally disturbed man who shot up the St. Louis’ Central Visual and Performing Arts High School in October, after his family tried to disarm him but couldn’t because of the Legislature’s determined refusal to enact a red-flag law.

They also include the man whose broad-daylight execution-style murder near the busy downtown intersection at Washington Avenue and North Tucker Boulevard last week was captured on video, showing that the shooter spent more than half a minute casually loading up his handgun first. Since the shooter apparently had no prior criminal record — and since carrying a gun around downtown St. Louis with no permit is perfectly legal for non-felons — it’s possible he broke no Missouri law until the moment he aimed and fired.

Then there were the minors who were caught by police outside the City Foundry in January carrying multiple weapons. There was some controversy because the police, acting on instructions from a juvenile court, released the teens to their parents. Yet Missouri’s Republican lawmakers, rather than condemn that insanity, saw and raised it two weeks later by voting down a measure that would have specified that minors can’t carry firearms in public.

“I just have a different approach for addressing public safety that doesn’t deprive people, who have done nothing to any other person, who will commit no violence, from their freedom,” explained state Rep. Bill Hardwick, R-Waynesville.

Guns brandished at vigil
Another man at the balloon-release vigil brandishes a handgun in response to what those present assert was "disrespect" directed at attendees.
David Carson photos, Post-Dispatch
The “freedom” of youths to carry loaded guns around in public before they’re old enough to drive, he means. Think about that.

It’s important to note that this lunacy isn’t supported by the Missouri public — not even among Republicans. A new poll by St. Louis University and YouGov finds that 79% of Missourians, including 73% of Republicans, favor universal background checks for gun purchases, and 69%, including 59% of Republicans, favor requiring purchasers to be at least 21. Yet the Legislature is considering still more measures to loosen the state’s gun laws further.

Look again at those pictures. Whatever GOP lawmakers say about “law and order,” this is the scenario their gun policies are imposing upon St. Louis. Decrying inaction by city officials against crime is valid, but no one should forget who is ultimately arming the criminals.

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PostMar 05, 2023#4737

RuskiSTL wrote:
Mar 05, 2023
Conventions and ball games don't make a vibrant city. Residents and creative businesses do. 

Name a world-class city that has stadiums and convention centers as a major presence in their city centers. I'm a sports fan as big as anyone, but these businesses are regressive by nature. Invest in housing, education, and public safety if you want vibrancy. The goal is Amsterdam, not Arlington. 
^New York, Toronto, Madrid all have stadiums in or close to their city centers. Sports and conventions definitely contribute to vibrancy. The vibrancy in Amsterdam's city center is tourism-centered as well.

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PostMar 05, 2023#4738

Laclede's Landing and Wash Ave will be insanely crowded next weekend for the Battlehawks game, I'd bet money on it.

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PostMar 06, 2023#4739

I shudder to think the state our downtown would be in without conventions and sports. Those events fill hotel rooms and restaurants to the brim. Obviously downtown would be healthier with more residents but it's undeniable the impact these events have

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PostMar 06, 2023#4740

Battlehawks announced they are releasing more tickets / uncovering seats in the dome due to high demand.

Love to see it. 

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PostMar 06, 2023#4741

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:
Mar 06, 2023
I shudder to think the state our downtown would be in without conventions and sports. Those events fill hotel rooms and restaurants to the brim. Obviously downtown would be healthier with more residents but it's undeniable the impact these events have
^ what would most of downtowns outside nyc Philly and Chicago be without sports and conventions.

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PostMar 06, 2023#4742

Exactly. I wonder how many downtown residents it would take to replicate the annual economic impact of those events. It's probably several times more than we have right now. 

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PostMar 06, 2023#4743

You'd probably be more hard pressed to find world class cities in the US that don't have convention and stadiums in their downtown than ones that do. I was in Nashville this weekend - one of the most "vibrant" cities in the country - two stadiums and a massive convention center in the heart of downtown.

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PostMar 06, 2023#4744

Hmm, I'm not against the placement of stadiums Downtown but I think the point that they haven't revitalized Downtown is true. Like the Blues moved Downtown in the 90s and numerous buildings have been abandoned since then. Also, there are downsides like those historic, urban buildings they tore down on Olive for the City Park parking garage. 

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PostMar 06, 2023#4745

What buildings have been abandoned since the Blues moved that you would directly tie to their relocation?  The only one in the vicinity that hasn't been revitalized is the muni courts building which is a challenging building for redevelopment/ repurpose.  Or is your suggestion merely one where they don't single handedly revitalize a downtown? I think everyone would agree it is merely a portion of the success pie.   That said i would argue their roll as catalyst or springboard. 

You cannot assign macro economic forces that drove Famous Barr / Macys to leave the Railway Ex and AT&T to consolidate to a single tower as part of the stadia equation.  Rather because our sports teams' homes are downtown, hotels, restaurants and apartments flourish due to increased desirability despite these losses. 

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PostMar 06, 2023#4746

TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote:
Mar 06, 2023
What buildings have been abandoned since the Blues moved that you would directly tie to their relocation?  The only one in the vicinity that hasn't been revitalized is the muni courts building which is a challenging building for redevelopment/ repurpose.  Or is your suggestion merely one where they don't single handedly revitalize a downtown? I think everyone would agree it is merely a portion of the success pie.   That said i would argue their roll as catalyst or springboard. 
None. In hindsight the Kiel/Savvis/Scottrade/Enterprice location was a dumb spot to put an arena.
1) they had to build a smaller than usual arena
2) there are no development opportunities anywhere surrounding it. The post office and city hall/courts megablocks to the east and west are chokepoints.

But the arena is still busy 80+ days a year and helps downtown businesses.

sc4mayor
sc4mayor

PostMar 06, 2023#4747

^ I always liked the old proposal for a Cupples Station arena right by Busch Stadium.

Though I imagine the placement of Kiel/Enterprise likely made the renovation of the Opera House more likely.

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PostMar 06, 2023#4748

In long term I really don't think the Enterprise Center location is a not that bad of choice.   For starters, I think Sc4mayor is correct in that it made the Opera house redevelopment more likely and would also add that it probably help Union Station from a development perspective.  But those are very subjective arguments on how much of it is really about the stadium or not.  

I think that Enterprise seating capacity is pretty much on par with most NHL and NBA stadiums as vetted by others on the various threads.  To me the creativity and going forward is really about a better use of the space between arena and Post Office facility as well as across the street with Old Muni building backlot.   Plus it has some of the greatest local and regional transportation access to be found between I64/Metrolink/Amtrak to future Brickline/pedestrian improvements.   A very talented young adult has already showed us the possibilities and a vision of improving upon that transportation.   A lot of possibilities to be had along Clark Ave.

So I'm going to double down, and yes I agree that conventions and sports are not the silver bullet and a lot of other things need to happen for vibrancy, but the city got a $200 millionish share of the Rams settlement.   Half of that funds in my opinion is first and foremost should go to fill the gaps for unhindered phase II convention upgrade/expansion and the rest for back into downtown sporting facilities whether that be dome upgrades and or in my opinion; demolish the small Enterprise parking lot and move it over to the backlot of muni courts lot.   Build the new garage partially underground to facilitate basement/direct access to the arena under the street and spend the money such that the new parking garage can support a future tower on top of it .   In place of the old Enterprise Center garage you facilitate more locker, physical and back office, so on.  Heck, the current Post Office facility make for some terrific a reuse (maybe ice rinks and courts, who knows)   

sc4mayor
sc4mayor

PostMar 06, 2023#4749

^ The Post Office isn't going anywhere and it shouldn't.  The original wing is beautiful and an important piece of the architectural line up of the Gateway Mall.  The later Mid-Century extension/garage leaves a bit more to be desired but is still a worthy addition to its more classical neighbor.  Plus, with the money the Blues (and Maryland Heights) have put into the ice center out that way, there really isn't any need to build more rinks neighboring Enterprise.


I disagree that there are no development opportunities surrounding Enterprise.  The City Hall lots could be repurposed, there's been past proposals for that near the Muni Courts.  The parking lots on the other side of the Metro tracks offer the best opportunities for development near the arena.  I posted this some time ago in a different thread.  Some structured parking with maybe residential or a hotel on top at the Gateway Station.


Tracks could be decked over (or not, wouldn't be necessary) but there's definitely some opportunity to do something better around Enterprise. The infrastructure makes it more difficult than CityPark or Busch Stadium, but I would say the biggest challenge is having an ownership group that doesn't seem to have any interest in cleaning up the streetscape outside of the building...much less leading development of under utilized lots in the vicinity like those other stadiums.

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PostMar 06, 2023#4750

dredger wrote:
Mar 06, 2023
I think that Enterprise seating capacity is pretty much on par with most NHL and NBA stadiums as vetted by others on the various threads. 
I'm talking about overall building size which is the concourses, back of house, locker rooms, offices and other areas:
  • Enterprise Center: 655,000 sq ft
  • American Airlines Center in Dallas: 850,000 sq ft
  • Ball Arena in Denver: 825,000 sq ft
  • Little Caesars in Detroit: 885,000 sq ft
  • Capitol One in DC: 1,000,000 sq ft
  • TD Garden in Boston: 775,000 sq ft
  • United Center in Chicago: 960,000 sq ft
  • Crypto.com in LA: 950,000 sq ft
Supposedly that shortage/difference is part of the reason the NBA blocked the Laurie purchase of the Vancouver Grizzlies and moving them here around 1999-2001. 

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