urbanSTL

da_GOAT wrote:it equates to around $2.50 psf. not a shocker given it's currently the best location in DTSTL.

Is it really the best location? It’s a bit isolated.

^Practically, no. But for devoted Cardinals' fans, which there are a lot of, it most definitely is. 

its 2 blocks from a national park, across the street from a stadium, ballpark village with multiple resturants, a hotel, co working space, a gym, 2 blocks from Kiener Plaza, 2 blocks from Broadway Oyster Bar- this is all a 5-10 minute walk.  Schnucks at 9th is .5 of a mile   

I've spent the last few days in Milwaukee. Their downtown seems safe, clean and healthy, with a beautiful waterfront and several newish towers and few vacant buildings. Still, there's an eerie lack of people. As others have said, downtowns across the country seem to be going through a period of low energy. I think St. Louis is doing just fine in comparison.

framer wrote: ↑

Apr 14, 2022

I've spent the last few days in Milwaukee. Their downtown seems safe, clean and healthy, with a beautiful waterfront and several newish towers and few vacant buildings. Still, there's an eerie lack of people. As others have said, downtowns across the country seem to be going through a period of low energy. I think St. Louis is doing just fine in comparison.

Completely agree about Milwaukee. In KC right now and it's the same here. I will say their downtown's feel more full and safe than STL, but the number of people out and about is roughly the same.

Downtown Milwaukee is about 2 Sq miles (like downtown +west stl)  it has about 9,200 residents and back in 2019 it had 90,000 workers pre covid 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 14, 2022

Downtown Milwaukee is about 2 Sq miles (like downtown +west stl)  it has about 9,200 residents and back in 2019 it had 90,000 workers pre covid 

I think the river (which is usable for boats, kayaks, etc.) is a huge positive for Milwaukee.  They also have multiple bar districts downtown that are stronger than Wash Ave.  Most importantly, their downtown quite seamlessly transitions to other neighborhoods compared to STL.  Thats really the largest difference we can fix IMO.

mjbais1489 wrote:

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 14, 2022

Downtown Milwaukee is about 2 Sq miles (like downtown +west stl)  it has about 9,200 residents and back in 2019 it had 90,000 workers pre covid 

I think the river (which is usable for boats, kayaks, etc.) is a huge positive for Milwaukee.  They also have multiple bar districts downtown that are stronger than Wash Ave.  Most importantly, their downtown quite seamlessly transitions to other neighborhoods compared to STL.  Thats really the largest difference we can fix IMO.

Only thing is the surrounding neighborhoods are all pretty homogeneous. Hope that's not something STL loses moving forward

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all the major activity nodes are isolated in DTSTL it's arguably it's biggest problem besides shootings, reckless driving, disgusting brutalist architecture, and an insane amount of dedication to parking. I would say Washington Av is the best location, but the # of homicides are a concern, especially from a real estate standpoint. personally, I expect Downtown West to become the best location; the MLS Stadium paired w/ Union Station and plenty of human scale density next to a growing Midtown is cementing a good fate.

# of homicides? 1? husband shooting a his wife in the car after an argument at Washington and 4th? 

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 14, 2022

# of homicides? 1? husband shooting a his wife in the car after an argument at Washington and 4th? 

lol is that seriously what you gathered from my post? maybe it was the teen in an Air BnB or maybe it was one of a handful at the Shell. maybe theres a conspiracy against St. Louis... Lord knows someone did not get robbed at the arch and Lord knows there wasn't a tragic murder-suicide down the street from what barely scrapes by as the best location in downtown; where he building prompting the convo discovered a corpse on the sidewalk. God knows that doesn't hold Washington and downtown as a whole back. I'm really thankful for your wisdom.

I think STL is missing a HUGE opportunity not placing value (from an entertainment standpoint) on one of our truly unique areas Downtown; Laclede's Landing. (I know this may not be the right thread). Back in the day, people traveled to STL for bachelor parties, birthday parties, party weekends, etc. STL was a destination. There was a great cluster of bars, music venues and restaurants in a uniquely St. Louis location. I know other factors came into play like road closures and what-not, but this should be a focus. Bring back music clubs and the rest will come. We need a music district where a cluster of smaller venues can host local and regional bands. The focus there has shifted, but we need a uniquely STL entertainment district, not  cookie-cutter like BPV. 

Downtown needs to end the crime narrative and lock it down. Even if exaggerated, when a preventable shooting/murder occurs down by the Arch, the narrative only continues. Do not allow these large groups to party in areas like Lenore K. Sullivan and Kiener Plaza.  Serves no purpose. I'm not sure what the Jones administration is doing to bring back businesses and solve the vacant property issue, but that will help. I get that covid has created huge challenges, but not many downtowns have all of the sports venues close by, a National Park/Gateway Arch, a high potential, under-utilized riverfront and overall tons of untapped potential. 

I'm not overly familiar with what is being done to bring Downtown back, but I would love to know what is going on behind the scenes. 

da_GOAT wrote: ↑

Apr 14, 2022

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Apr 14, 2022

# of homicides? 1? husband shooting a his wife in the car after an argument at Washington and 4th? 

lol is that seriously what you gathered from my post? maybe it was the teen in an Air BnB or maybe it was one of a handful at the Shell. maybe theres a conspiracy against St. Louis... Lord knows someone did not get robbed at the arch and Lord knows there wasn't a tragic murder-suicide down the street from what barely scrapes by as the best location in downtown; where he building prompting the convo discovered a corpse on the sidewalk. God knows that doesn't hold Washington and downtown as a whole back. I'm really thankful for your wisdom.

Airbnb was downtown west.  Which is reflected above.  There was no murder-suicide. There was a 12 year old accidentally shooting her cousin and then self. Contextualizing shootings matters. You or me or anyone has a much higher chance of a fatal car crash then ever being a shooting victim.

which is also happening on a monthly basis.

It always kind of makes me laugh when KC people get self-righteous about crime in other cities, as if they didn't just have four murders in less than 24 hours just the other day.

I'm Kansas City born & raised. The people there that do stuff like this, like promoting St. Louis crime but hushing Kansas City crime, ultimately drove me nuts and drove me away.

There's a significant faction of KC people who think KC's sh*t doesn't stink.



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Lol are u kidding? I've lost more friends to homicides in KC then I like to think about. When I found out I was having my first kid I became increasingly paranoid which is a huge part of why I moved. I gotta feeling you both are weak minded and quite possibly physically no better so I don't got nothing to prove. Hell, believe it or not I'm probably en route to doing more for St. Louis than either of you while simultaneously doing twice as much in Kansas City, where similar problems happen but not typically downtown . Find somewhere else to direct how lame you are and God bless lol.

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

Apr 15, 2022

What exactly does any of this bullsh*t have to do with downtown St. Louis?  Just go back and b*tch on The Rag.  No one here cares.

When I found out I was having my first kid I became increasingly paranoid which is a huge part of why I moved. I gotta feeling you both are weak minded and quite possibly physically no better so I don't got nothing to prove.

This quote speaks volumes.  Paranoid and utterly ignorant.

Please keep on topic and refrain from disrespectful comments that would only comfortably be said behind a computer. You are an inept conversationalist at best. It's quite literally people with your mentality who slow St. Louis down. It's like a child who got ass whoopings like every other kid in his class, lying to themselves like some kind of abused victim, burning bridges, denying the help it actually desperately needs. Lol s'all good doe.

dweebe wrote: ↑

Apr 15, 2022

DogtownBnR wrote: ↑

Apr 14, 2022

I think STL is missing a HUGE opportunity not placing value (from an entertainment standpoint) on one of our truly unique areas Downtown; Laclede's Landing. (I know this may not be the right thread). Back in the day, people traveled to STL for bachelor parties, birthday parties, party weekends, etc. STL was a destination. There was a great cluster of bars, music venues and restaurants in a uniquely St. Louis location. I know other factors came into play like road closures and what-not, but this should be a focus. Bring back music clubs and the rest will come. We need a music district where a cluster of smaller venues can host local and regional bands. The focus there has shifted, but we need a uniquely STL entertainment district, not  cookie-cutter like BPV. 

I know what you're saying, but I don't know how you bring the Landing back to the glory days (which I was there for). The Landing was the only draw in the city back then. There was no Ballpark Village, no bars around Cupples, Washington Ave was just getting traction, there was no Grove, there were no microbreweries except for Schlafly just getting going. The only 3am bars were on the Landing, Clarks and Humphries: that was it.

Plus as much as us Gen X'ers pine away for live music and remember bands like Urge, Pale Devine, The Eyes etc, the "kids" have little interest in club level local music. These days there's no going to places like Mississippi Nights or Kennedy's and knowing you'll get a good (or better) performance. Now it's all 100% cover bands.

I've still said though I'd like to see someone give it a try and in my opinion the way is to make the Landing open carry for drinks: like Beale Street in Memphis and all of New Orleans. Allow street sales and to-go cups. Plus close off streets.

ohh.... The Unconscious, Sun Sawed in Half, The Finns, The Stranded Lads, there was a great live music scene in the early 90s' - Wash Ave was for the dance club set (are there even dance clubs anymore?) - though Sky Bop Fly was basically the house band at... Velvet? or Evolution? one of those 

of course Wash ave during the day looked like a boarded up wasteland - at night it was crawling with people - it was weird 

As for the Landing I don't think you will ever see a concentration of night clubs, bars, music venues and dance clubs like that again - One of the products of resurgent neighborhood districts and I guess the demise of "going out" for young people? (just guessing on that one) - The Landing could emerge as a "village in city" it still has the best chance for actual riverfront development, needs a good masterplan and someone with deep pockets and desire to see it through.

Regarding the Landing I get it. Gen-x‘ers long for the glory days of the Landing. I travel a lot & most fun IT cities have a unique entertainment district. We have a bunch of separate districts. I think the Landing is the best location because it’s so unique. I love the Beale St. idea. Even cover band venues would be fine as long as there are lots of bar and restaurant options. I’m not sure what the residential population is there but it doesn’t seem like it will take off fully, due to lack of neighborhood amenities. While I prefer an entertainment district, I’ll take whatever it takes to save it. There are so many great buildings & it’s on the Mighty Mississippi… what makes St. Louis. All goes back to the fact our Riverfront is SO underutilized from the north Riverfront to the south, outside of Gateway Arch NP. The Landing should be so much better… inexcusable how lame our riverfront is.

^Even the arch doesn't really "utilize" the riverfront. It stands monumentally above it, but doesn't itself really invite you to walk down to it. Even the connection to the bridge isn't really great, since it's on a narrow sidewalk next to what amounts to a freeway off ramp. Maybe it's not Lenore Sullivan that needs closing, but the depressed section. (Much as I hate to admit it, seeing as it's my convenient airport connection.) Yeah, there's a set of stairs, but there's not really much that gives you the impression that it's worth going down them. It looks like a parking lot and a few barges. There's not anything that screams life from the block away and three stories up the view gives you. But the Landing invites you to walk around its corridors and, yes, down to the river. And Lenore Sullivan is one of the last ways to get to it. The landbridge gave us city arch. But maybe Laclede's Landing is necessary to make it to the river. (That and get some interesting boats back on the river there. Somehow. Anyhow.)

The center of gravity for live music has shifted to the area around Grand Center. Kranzberg is doing a great job fostering the local music scene up there. With that being said I would love to see them put a similar effort into the Landing. It's a small area geographically, it really just needs to get the ball rolling again. 

My pipe dream is an open container brewery district with a focus on live music. You don't even need to set up whole brewing systems, just taprooms with a restaurant partner would be sufficient. Could probably attract some breweries that aren't from around here too. Also throw in a distillery or two and bam, the Landing is a destination again. The coffee shops, gift stores, and ice cream parlors will follow.

PS. bring back Mississippi Nights