The State of Downtown

debaliviere · PostApr 08, 2022#40262022-04-08T18:18+00:00

A couple of things:

I don't think Twain is going anywhere while Emily Pulitzer is still alive.

A plan for the Gateway Mall was released back in 2009. https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... 091215.pdf

Looks like it was amended for the MLS stadium in 2020. https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... 3-2020.pdf

rbb · PostApr 08, 2022#40272022-04-08T18:55+00:00

debaliviere wrote: ↑
Apr 08, 2022
A couple of things:

I don't think Twain is going anywhere while Emily Pulitzer is still alive.

A plan for the Gateway Mall was released back in 2009. https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... 091215.pdf

Looks like it was amended for the MLS stadium in 2020. https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... 3-2020.pdf

Yeah, to be honest I don't think so either - just trying to think creatively.

The Master plan does show quite a bit more development of the grounds in Serra Sculpture Park. It's pretty low-res, but something like this appears as though it would provide much better engagement, especially for folks walking between Citygarden and the new Freedom Suits Memorial Sculpture art installation going in on the east lawn in front of the Civil Courts building:

It's a whole lot better than what's there now:

It looks like there are sidewalks, plazas, maybe a garden in the northeast corner, and even a water feature in the southwest corner? Any idea of whether any of that is likely to happen to the park?

-RBB

framer · PostApr 08, 2022#40282022-04-08T19:18+00:00

Laws protecting artistic integrity can be quite complex. You can't just cover the panels with a new material without the artist's permission. I don't see Serra granting it for this piece. Moving it would be easier, but if he and his gallery reps oppose it, it could get quite ugly ( see Tilted Arc in New York).

sc4mayor · PostApr 08, 2022#40292022-04-08T21:12+00:00

The Gateway Mall plan has different sport facilities proposed for the “neighborhood room,” which makes a bit more sense with Plaza Square right there. Beach volleyball, soccer, softball, football, etc.

chris fuller · PostApr 10, 2022#40302022-04-10T21:06+00:00

fence around this building at Jefferson at Market NE side Demo? Redo?
https://imgur.com/a/lUi8rcI

RockChalkSTL · PostApr 10, 2022#40312022-04-10T22:04+00:00

Maybe the hotel that was planned there a little while ago is about to start?

https://www.cityscene-stl.com/post/hote ... in-midtown

dbInSouthCity · PostApr 11, 2022#40322022-04-11T21:17+00:00

Greater STL Inc in partnership with Square, Cash App and Spire is having a giant block party in downtown on the 29th

https://www.citysocialstl.com/

Tim · PostApr 11, 2022#40332022-04-11T22:29+00:00

^ Very cool

Laife Fulk · PostApr 12, 2022#40342022-04-12T15:21+00:00

Suds wrote: ↑
Apr 08, 2022
Laife Fulk wrote:Contact your local alderperson, persistently but politely, and request your neighbors do the same. Funding will be a speedbump that has to be addressed at some point, but the first step is raising awareness through consistent, community wide input.

Aldermen and Alderwomen will listen and help, residents just have to make it less of a "wouldn't it be cool if..." and more of a "we want this specific thing".
Is there a template for this that you or others have used?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I personally don't like using templated material, but some non-profits or organizations might have suggested language depending on the issue. I'd say just don't overthink your messages and keep them brief, focused and respectful and they'll be well received.

pattimagee · PostApr 13, 2022#40352022-04-13T16:31+00:00

Saw this on one of STLRainbow's replies and thought it was interesting data point to share:

npav · PostApr 13, 2022#40362022-04-13T16:35+00:00

It's a prime location but damn, $3,300 for a 2 bdrm in downtown STL is a hell of a rent for a downtown that isn't as vibrant as your average large city.

da_GOAT · PostApr 13, 2022#40372022-04-13T17:50+00:00

it equates to around $2.50 psf. not a shocker given it's currently the best location in DTSTL.

dbInSouthCity · PostApr 13, 2022#40382022-04-13T19:36+00:00

npav wrote: ↑
Apr 13, 2022
It's a prime location but damn, $3,300 for a 2 bdrm in downtown STL is a hell of a rent for a downtown that isn't as vibrant as your average large city.

Of course 81 regular season + play off baseball games, 41 + playoff blues games, hundreds of events between enterprise/Stifel/ convention center, millions of visitors to the gateway arch national park, city museum, union station, 17,000 residents in 2 sq miles and 45,000-90,000 (covid and pre covid) workers is what I call a not vibrate downtown. Where do you guys get this stuff? Do any of you travel?

_nomad_ · PostApr 13, 2022#40392022-04-13T19:50+00:00

npav wrote: ↑
Apr 13, 2022
It's a prime location but damn, $3,300 for a 2 bdrm in downtown STL is a hell of a rent for a downtown that isn't as vibrant as your average large city.

It's not as vibrant as New York or Chicago, but if you can live by the things you want who cares? For a Cardinals and/or Blues fan who works downtown and wants to go out this is perfect. People keep wanting to evaluate downtown as a tourism or nightlife destination from the perspective of someone commuting in (and it has pros and cons like everywhere) while ignoring the fact that as a neighborhood to live in it has many times more amenities than about any other place in the city.

PeterXCV · PostApr 13, 2022#40402022-04-13T19:59+00:00

That is too much rent, obviously. But being across the street from the ballpark is no small thing. I remember learning years ago that when they began to convert some of the Cupples buildings into apartments they leased rapidly, which makes the incompetence of the Cardinals at developing BPV all the more clear.

Suds · PostApr 13, 2022#40412022-04-13T20:04+00:00

They're probably hoping high-cost/luxury rentals like this make downtown more vibrant by bringing in more wealth. It's working in Debaliviere Place more or less.

JJ Taino · PostApr 13, 2022#40422022-04-13T20:06+00:00

I bought Downtown for the same reasons close to baseball, hockey, events and festivals. Sometimes I give a rant because I want things to get done quicker but can’t beat the location and walkability to all thing mentioned before. Now add the MLS and Union Station plus all the new restaurants and is worth the investment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RockChalkSTL · PostApr 13, 2022#40432022-04-13T20:21+00:00

I think we're going to see a major wave of development in Downtown West in the next five years.

I think even a ton of the downtown naysayers will be singing a totally different tune in 2028 or so.

pattimagee · PostApr 13, 2022#40442022-04-13T20:42+00:00

I've heard from a handful of people associated with Downtown West properties there's something coming in midtown... which reminds me of this:

ST. LOUIS SET TO BLIGHT 395 ACRES IN CITY’S FAST DEVELOPING CENTRAL CORRIDOR
https://nextstl.com/2016/09/st-louis-se ... -corridor/

JJ Taino · PostApr 13, 2022#40452022-04-13T21:14+00:00

pattimagee wrote:I've heard from a handful of people associated with Downtown West properties there's something coming in midtown... which reminds me of this:

ST. LOUIS SET TO BLIGHT 395 ACRES IN CITY’S FAST DEVELOPING CENTRAL CORRIDOR
https://nextstl.com/2016/09/st-louis-se ... -corridor/

Midtown or Downtown West? Midtown is booming right now. But I can see taller buildings in certain spots.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

npav · PostApr 13, 2022#40462022-04-13T21:58+00:00

_nomad_ wrote: ↑
Apr 13, 2022
npav wrote: ↑
Apr 13, 2022
It's a prime location but damn, $3,300 for a 2 bdrm in downtown STL is a hell of a rent for a downtown that isn't as vibrant as your average large city.
It's not as vibrant as New York or Chicago, but if you can live by the things you want who cares? For a Cardinals and/or Blues fan who works downtown and wants to go out this is perfect. People keep wanting to evaluate downtown as a tourism or nightlife destination from the perspective of someone commuting in (and it has pros and cons like everywhere) while ignoring the fact that as a neighborhood to live in it has many times more amenities than about any other place in the city.

I'll rephrase this because I'm not trying to beat downtown, it does have a lot of great amenities but it's still a midwest city that's market doesn't usually go this high for rentals, and these are typically prices you'll see reserved for major East/West coast cities.

Downtown is a great place and I'd love to live there, just not for $3,300.

STLrainbow · PostApr 13, 2022#40472022-04-13T22:15+00:00

^ fwiw, the Ballpark Heights pricing is considerably lower than at One Cardinal Way. But it appears to be a higher than most of the newer renovations downtown, -- per sq. ft. looks like a bit higher than Peper Lofts and considerably higher than Front Page Lofts, e.g.

dredger · PostApr 13, 2022#40482022-04-13T22:27+00:00

PeterXCV wrote: ↑
Apr 13, 2022
That is too much rent, obviously. But being across the street from the ballpark is no small thing. I remember learning years ago that when they began to convert some of the Cupples buildings into apartments they leased rapidly, which makes the incompetence of the Cardinals at developing BPV all the more clear.

In all fairness, I really don't attribute to BPV pace to incompetence of DeWitt/Cordish for which they have done well on other things and over multiple years. I do attribute the slow place of BPV to setting a price point and value above the going market in a slow growth region. The result, for which I'm speculating on, is that they probably have kept their expected margins and returns above others for which it would take high end, high rent in a very desirable area but a longer time to make happen. Now, the question of being too greedy is a fair one in my books and I think in part why Centene deal fell through once upon a time.

PostApr 13, 2022#40492022-04-13T22:37+00:00

RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑
Apr 13, 2022
I think we're going to see a major wave of development in Downtown West in the next five years.

I think even a ton of the downtown naysayers will be singing a totally different tune in 2028 or so.

Plenty of big developable space to rehab from Chemical (which looks like it finally going to happen) to Jeff Arms & Railway Exchange to 909 Chestnut Ave.
..
Of course, I also think some of downtown's space would be well suited for vertical data farms for the work from home, virtual, meta world in order to get some of the square footage under lease...need the tech world to get behind next generation of data farms instead of these massive sprawling on story warehouses built on farm fields that Amazon, Facebook, Google keep building under huge tax breaks & incentives (think Kansas in its latest handout outside of KC).

sc4mayor · PostApr 13, 2022#40502022-04-13T22:48+00:00

^^ I believe Centene fell through because they wanted to build an enormous amount of parking (just look how much they’ve built in Clayton) and Cordish balked. Probably did BPV a favor, honestly. Even if it tacked on a number of years to the development moving forward.

I would think they could easily move on another apartment tower now…my opinion is that DeWitt wants to wait and do a larger 3rd phase that would fill in the rest of the open blocks. If I were him, I’d be putting shovels in the ground and getting more people and activity downtown in the near term. He’s got a product people clearly like and will pay for. I don’t see any problem with doing a building at a time at this point. I’d also move past any additional office space and fill the remaining blocks with residential.

The State of Downtown

Choose Display Mode