The service was never good there. Never.DowntownNick wrote:That's sad to hear about the Dubliner spot. I totally buy people thinking WashAve is tired, but it's weird that very few are interested in the Dubliner because that place was busy until it was shut down suddenly when the buyer backed out. I think if someone went into that spot with a good menu and brought back live music it would be a hit. Dubliner, in my opinion, started going downhill when they stopped caring about the food and brought in DJs instead of bands. It lost what made it fun to go there and just became another beer bar.
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Hmmm...I wonder what 2 bars?
No doubt that if an operator opened in the Dubliner space with a good concept and cared, it would do very well.
Wash Ave is NOT crime ridden. While there are issues that need to be improved on, it's mostly perception.
Tired? Maybe. The street does need repairs.
Agree...we desperately need new and exciting venues. That will flip the switch.
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No doubt that if an operator opened in the Dubliner space with a good concept and cared, it would do very well.
Wash Ave is NOT crime ridden. While there are issues that need to be improved on, it's mostly perception.
Tired? Maybe. The street does need repairs.
Agree...we desperately need new and exciting venues. That will flip the switch.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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^ overall I think WashAve is fine... it does need to freshen up a bit and adapt to a more competitive market but the fundamentals are good. If all of a sudden the redevelopments in the works stopped in their tracks then it would be a different story. I'd also like to see some thoughtful, complimentary retail additions near Star Clipper to give a little bit of a shopping node.
Please not the way of the Landing where entrepreneurs attempt to revive every version of burlesque and failed throwback and/or niche concepts.downtown2007 wrote:Hmmm...I wonder what 2 bars?
No doubt that if an operator opened in the Dubliner space with a good concept and cared, it would do very well.
Wash Ave is NOT crime ridden. While there are issues that need to be improved on, it's mostly perception.
Tired? Maybe. The street does need repairs.
Agree...we desperately need new and exciting venues. That will flip the switch.
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God, how hard is it for a bar owner to just look to Chicago or NYC, etc. and just see that you don't need to overthink it. Have a really good bar program, and if you can, a great food program as well with a good happy hour from 4-6. Make the inside look cozy, but not too refined and an updated facade and street presence. The problem is that none of the bars on Washington Ave actually have any character. There's absolutely no incentive for people to trek to downtown, nor downtown residents to want to spend their money there.
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Hair of the Dog and MoBar has plenty of character.bwcrow1s wrote:Please not the way of the Landing where entrepreneurs attempt to revive every version of burlesque and failed throwback and/or niche concepts.downtown2007 wrote:Hmmm...I wonder what 2 bars?
No doubt that if an operator opened in the Dubliner space with a good concept and cared, it would do very well.
Wash Ave is NOT crime ridden. While there are issues that need to be improved on, it's mostly perception.
Tired? Maybe. The street does need repairs.
Agree...we desperately need new and exciting venues. That will flip the switch.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
God, how hard is it for a bar owner to just look to Chicago or NYC, etc. and just see that you don't need to overthink it. Have a really good bar program, and if you can, a great food program as well with a good happy hour from 4-6. Make the inside look cozy, but not too refined and an updated facade and street presence. The problem is that none of the bars on Washington Ave actually have any character. There's absolutely no incentive for people to trek to downtown, nor downtown residents to want to spend their money there.
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Did Seven Zero Eight close?bwcrow1s wrote: Please not the way of the Landing where entrepreneurs attempt to revive every version of burlesque and failed throwback and/or niche concepts.
Just bit of news on the downtown hotel front...
-- LaSalle Building got a permit for some interior demo issued this week so looks like the Hotel Indigo plans are indeed moving ahead.
-- Crowne Plaza sold last week to a new owner. Not sure if the plan to scale down and rebrand the hotel and convert 300 of the rooms to residential are still in the works or not.... personally, I think that sounds like the right way to go for downtown.
-- LaSalle Building got a permit for some interior demo issued this week so looks like the Hotel Indigo plans are indeed moving ahead.
-- Crowne Plaza sold last week to a new owner. Not sure if the plan to scale down and rebrand the hotel and convert 300 of the rooms to residential are still in the works or not.... personally, I think that sounds like the right way to go for downtown.
Yes, there are bars here and there that are worthwhile. Hair of the Dog is good but the inside has zero character. It's a dive bar. MoBar, sure, more than Hair. Crack Fox probably the most.downtown2007 wrote:Hair of the Dog and MoBar has plenty of character.bwcrow1s wrote:Please not the way of the Landing where entrepreneurs attempt to revive every version of burlesque and failed throwback and/or niche concepts.downtown2007 wrote:Hmmm...I wonder what 2 bars?
No doubt that if an operator opened in the Dubliner space with a good concept and cared, it would do very well.
Wash Ave is NOT crime ridden. While there are issues that need to be improved on, it's mostly perception.
Tired? Maybe. The street does need repairs.
Agree...we desperately need new and exciting venues. That will flip the switch.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
God, how hard is it for a bar owner to just look to Chicago or NYC, etc. and just see that you don't need to overthink it. Have a really good bar program, and if you can, a great food program as well with a good happy hour from 4-6. Make the inside look cozy, but not too refined and an updated facade and street presence. The problem is that none of the bars on Washington Ave actually have any character. There's absolutely no incentive for people to trek to downtown, nor downtown residents to want to spend their money there.
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There's just nothing inviting about going all the way downtown to visit one single bar that stands out as inviting, at least for me.
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^ what this guy says
If I worked downtown I would stick around for happy hour once a while but unless I'm going to the cards or blues game there is nothing to draw me downtown
So many options closer to home
If I worked downtown I would stick around for happy hour once a while but unless I'm going to the cards or blues game there is nothing to draw me downtown
So many options closer to home
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No lie: someone stole the Eddie Gaedel bobblehead from Tiny Bar earlier this week!
Interesting opportunity for downtown with the possible use of eminent domain to acquire the condemned parking lot on Tucker and Locust
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... a5a0c.html
Seems like the owner is cooperative as it would free it of litigation woes and if the city can obtain it at a distressed price perhaps the financials for a solid mixed-use project could come together.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... a5a0c.html
Seems like the owner is cooperative as it would free it of litigation woes and if the city can obtain it at a distressed price perhaps the financials for a solid mixed-use project could come together.
Maybe. Looks to me like just another vacant/distressed property/building in a downtown core that is full of them. Is there a solution that is cheaper to the public coffers? Show me the "interest" in downtown properties that is turning into developments/redevelopments. I don't buy the story.
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^ Seems pretty clear there has been growing interest - and sales -- on downtown properties recently. Slightly different question on what city-owned properties SLDC may have issued RFPs for that have been having interest; I really don't know what they have. Obviously Arcade-Wright was a success but that was a few years ago. I'll try to look up more recent activity.
Anyway, it appears the garage owner is trying to get out of that liability and may be willing to essentially hand it over to the city... a structurally deficient property with a multi-million $$ judgments against it would seem to have little market-rate value. If that's the case, then this could be a solid acquisition in a prime location for future redevelopment.
Anyway, it appears the garage owner is trying to get out of that liability and may be willing to essentially hand it over to the city... a structurally deficient property with a multi-million $$ judgments against it would seem to have little market-rate value. If that's the case, then this could be a solid acquisition in a prime location for future redevelopment.
The street-scaping for lower WashAve from 7th to Memorial may finally start later this month and take about a year...
Gateway Arch grounds construction on schedule
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... cbcb0.html
The north Arch grounds and WashAve access should be open later this month. Finally this long nightmare is coming to an end. Hopefully we'll see some tangible gains starting next Spring.
Gateway Arch grounds construction on schedule
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... cbcb0.html
The north Arch grounds and WashAve access should be open later this month. Finally this long nightmare is coming to an end. Hopefully we'll see some tangible gains starting next Spring.
How's the Landing been doing over the last few years since Washington Avenue was allowed to be removed, essentially cutting off the main entrance to the river and the Landing? Not many people have figured out how to navigate down there without it.
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In short, not good.jcity wrote:How's the Landing been doing over the last few years since Washington Avenue was allowed to be removed, essentially cutting off the main entrance to the river and the Landing? Not many people have figured out how to navigate down there without it.
Business Journal reports Matthew Waldrop (Brad's brother) acquired the parking lots bounded by Lucas, 15th, Delmar, and 14th. In the article, it was mentioned that they "hope to take advantage of an area of St. Louis that is poised for development". In the mean time, it appears they will upgrade the lighting on the lots and keep them as is. This could be interesting. Hopefully it works out.
KBS is right. I lived on Wash Ave last year and didn't like it. I don't mind seedy areas, because they allow me to live in nicer places and save on rent (rent is always a poor place to put your money). But there were a lot of fights, there was crime, aggressive panhandling, and of course the city illegally towed my car once which was the final nail in the coffin. Also, the corporate out-of-state landlord of my loft was a con artist and slumlord, charging people unreasonable fines, taking poor care of the building, bad security, rampant drug use, etc. The other problem about living down there was that everything closes early except the bars. Lots of restaurants are closed at 9 or 10, the Schnucks closes at 9, and there's no drug store, let alone a 24-hour one.
I'm 100 times happier back in the Central West End. No parking checker problems, 24-hour Schnucks and Walgreens, not as much vagrancy. Higher standards for landlords. The bars don't attract the aggressive types that the Wash Ave ones do.
I've probably rented something like 15 different places in my lifetime in 5 different cities--my Wash Ave experience was by far the worst. I thought it would be cool because I was working downtown, but it didn't work.
I'm 100 times happier back in the Central West End. No parking checker problems, 24-hour Schnucks and Walgreens, not as much vagrancy. Higher standards for landlords. The bars don't attract the aggressive types that the Wash Ave ones do.
I've probably rented something like 15 different places in my lifetime in 5 different cities--my Wash Ave experience was by far the worst. I thought it would be cool because I was working downtown, but it didn't work.
On another note, I'm glad that there are at least plans do do something about that parking garage on Tucker and Olive. That is a highly-visible intersection, and getting something useful and aesthetically attractive along the Tucker corridor (with the Jeff Arms renovated as well) would do wonders for the image of Downtown.
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I hate to break it to you but there is just as much crime in the CWE. They have had 5 homicides while downtown has had 2. Not to mention other violent acts. Sounds like your car and rent experience formed your opinion. Sorry to hear that.jsbru wrote:KBS is right. I lived on Wash Ave last year and didn't like it. I don't mind seedy areas, because they allow me to live in nicer places and save on rent (rent is always a poor place to put your money). But there were a lot of fights, there was crime, aggressive panhandling, and of course the city illegally towed my car once which was the final nail in the coffin. Also, the corporate out-of-state landlord of my loft was a con artist and slumlord, charging people unreasonable fines, taking poor care of the building, bad security, rampant drug use, etc. The other problem about living down there was that everything closes early except the bars. Lots of restaurants are closed at 9 or 10, the Schnucks closes at 9, and there's no drug store, let alone a 24-hour one.
I'm 100 times happier back in the Central West End. No parking checker problems, 24-hour Schnucks and Walgreens, not as much vagrancy. Higher standards for landlords. The bars don't attract the aggressive types that the Wash Ave ones do.
I've probably rented something like 15 different places in my lifetime in 5 different cities--my Wash Ave experience was by far the worst. I thought it would be cool because I was working downtown, but it didn't work.
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^ Let me fact check that claim about crime....
there have been 6 homicides in the CWE so far this year.
there have been 6 homicides in the CWE so far this year.
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Murder is only one sort of crime, and it's pretty rare; even here. It doesn't look like a good proxy for crime as a whole. Glancing at the Post Dispatch numbers in August it appears as though there were 267 reportable crimes approximately Downtown and about 203 in the Central West End.
For our purposes I'm using a more colloquial understanding and including several official neighborhoods in both. I'd say the vernacular definition, which is more relevant for perceptions, encompasses both "Downtown" and "Downtown West." My Central West End figures include the official neighborhood, "Debaliviere Place," "Skinker Debaliviere," "Wydown Skinker." and Forest Park. This is, I would say, a rather conservative definition of Downtown and a rather more liberal one of the West End, since it includes everything west of Vandeventer, and I for one would think of things east of Sarah as Midtown, and possibly everything up to Boyle. (Who on earth thinks the Ikea and its sea of parking is in the West End? That's just silly.) One month is a rather small sample, but I'd say the perception is probably not unfair. In both cases most of it is property crime. You're not too terribly likely to be the victim of a serious violent crime in either location. (More likely than you should be, maybe, but still quite unlikely.) But car break ins . . . those happen.
One can dig and massage things a bit, and this is small sample statistics. And to be fair it does appear that crime is up and bit in the West End somewhat the reverse Downtown. But the real likelihood of experiencing something unpleasant personally still looks a good bit higher Downtown, and folks don't necessarily consider trends in their every day emotional thinking. Keep in mind, the Downtown number of crimes is concentrated in a much smaller area. If you look at per-capita rates it's even more telling. Likely, most of the trouble in both places is concentrated on the fringes, but smaller volume always puts you closer to that edge, wherever it may be.
For our purposes I'm using a more colloquial understanding and including several official neighborhoods in both. I'd say the vernacular definition, which is more relevant for perceptions, encompasses both "Downtown" and "Downtown West." My Central West End figures include the official neighborhood, "Debaliviere Place," "Skinker Debaliviere," "Wydown Skinker." and Forest Park. This is, I would say, a rather conservative definition of Downtown and a rather more liberal one of the West End, since it includes everything west of Vandeventer, and I for one would think of things east of Sarah as Midtown, and possibly everything up to Boyle. (Who on earth thinks the Ikea and its sea of parking is in the West End? That's just silly.) One month is a rather small sample, but I'd say the perception is probably not unfair. In both cases most of it is property crime. You're not too terribly likely to be the victim of a serious violent crime in either location. (More likely than you should be, maybe, but still quite unlikely.) But car break ins . . . those happen.
One can dig and massage things a bit, and this is small sample statistics. And to be fair it does appear that crime is up and bit in the West End somewhat the reverse Downtown. But the real likelihood of experiencing something unpleasant personally still looks a good bit higher Downtown, and folks don't necessarily consider trends in their every day emotional thinking. Keep in mind, the Downtown number of crimes is concentrated in a much smaller area. If you look at per-capita rates it's even more telling. Likely, most of the trouble in both places is concentrated on the fringes, but smaller volume always puts you closer to that edge, wherever it may be.
For the cost of the downtown St. Louis Partnerships budget, say you even cut it in half, you could add 30 police officers to the heart of downtown, constantly walking the "beat". Why don't police do that anymore? Downtown STL is the city's golden egg, it should really start acting like it. Imagine 30 more police on every few blocks downtown or at least the heart around wash ave, or wherever the major problems are.
