urbanSTL

I think it started when east St. Louis bars started closing earlier and that crowd came west to wash ave. often many of this crowd didn't actually go into the bars but would just hang out on the street. I was last out down there a few years ago and decided it seemed to rough and haven't been back. This is the harsh reality of wash ave late at night. Like another poster said, I think more retail and restaurants and less "late night" will help bring crowds back for dinner. The new Last Hotel will help and perhaps the fashion incubator can help turn this area the "go to" for shopping etc. Removing that cruising crowd will help.

It's painfully obvious that people have been scared away from Wash. Ave. by the perception of crime. Whether this perception is deserved or not is irrelevant; if people feel unsafe, they're gonna find other places to go. Until the vibe changes down there, the crowds won't be back.

The perception of crime and a lack of adequate response to it seems to be leading to some dangerous behaviors as well. A friend who lives on Wash Ave is looking to relocate primarily because she witnessed a (drunk?) bar manager waving a gun at people on the sidewalk after closing time. I get why folks downtown might feel more comfortable armed, but if you're taking shots with customers one minute and pulling a gun the next, something bad is going to happen eventually.

To be honest I don't think crime is what drove everyone away. Was have is safer when more people are there and it has become more apparent that it is more dangerous now that fewer people are there to deter crime, but I don't think a perception of crime drove everyone away. Was have just isn't the it place anymore: the only places with a nightlife anymore are Lucas park and bobbys place and the clientele are driving the normal crowds away (Lucas park is full of low class people like those openly doing lines in the bathroom without having any discretion and bobbys place has become pretty much a bar for thuggish black men and other men who act overly aggressive driving away most other people). The it places are Mcgurks and Molly's, wheels house and the grove. I have a feeling wheelhouse will follow suit with bobbys place, and Bpv is a ghost town if there isn't a game. Sorry if I'm blunt but that's why most people won't go anymore. I can't even drag my friends there anymore unless it's hair of the dog for a couple arcade games and then dash


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

New music club and vapor shop to open on the Landing. I still think The Landing has great unrealized potential. I think the Landing needs to focus on live music. This is a start!

http://www.riverfronttimes.com/musicblo ... es-landing

Wash Ave and downtown's struggles should be no surprise given the veiled and not-so-veiled racist comments by a few people on this thread. If members of the UrbanSTL community are saying things like this, I can't even imagine what people that aren't invested or knowledgeable about our urban core are saying.

FirSTLove wrote:Wash Ave and downtown's struggles should be no surprise given the veiled and not-so-veiled racist comments by a few people on this thread. If members of the UrbanSTL community are saying things like this, I can't even imagine what people that aren't invested or knowledgeable about our urban core are saying.

I agree, St. Louis can be very a racist and tribal place. I remember going to the Dubliner with a college friend who was not from St. Louis and we were essentially ignored and denied service. We don't dress ghetto or have any face tattoos or anything that would scare anybody that wasn't just scared of black people.

This is much different than when we go out in Tampa. Florida is such a diverse and vibrant place that whites are usually not uncomfortable when they are not the clear majority, which is usually the norm. Keep in mind, FL is still the deep South, but I have always found the people more accepting. Again, not saying that FL doesn't have racism. It's just much more diverse and with the large and diverse Latino community you often don't know where anybody is from. You may see a black man with a white man and guess what? They are both Cuban.

I realize what I said might have come across racist I only meant it as an observation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

user28 wrote:bobbys place has become pretty much a bar for thuggish black men


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What's a "thuggish" black man?

poor choice of words, i addressed more than that as well. how about aggressive men, is that reasonable

I beg to differ on how Saint.Louis can be racist in fact this entire country can be racist just because of a few choice words by people doesn't speak for everyone including myself as we all know the saying treat people the way you want to be treated..
Being mixed race and openly gay I've had my fair share of being discriminated by all races..
But do i carry on being a victim no I'm all about making life happen and living my life the way i want.
Heck i was in Tampa a few years ago to visit a friend and we were both ridiculed for being gay by 3 black men at a gas station but did we go out of our way to be just as ignorant as they were to us for no reason, NO
I think we could all learn how to be respectful towards everyone whether its your ethnicity your age your gender your disability and even still being HIV pos.
Life is to precious for low blows and hatred towards each other and adults are the main reason for this.
I'm not much of a nightlife person but a dear friend of mine a few years ago owned a loft just atop the jive and wale if I'm spelling that incorrect anyone can correct me but there were more than a numerous times where the crowd was overly way too rowdy for my desire however many unfortunate mishaps have really taken its toll on the BLVD.
I think the time is now to turn Washington Ave into a more family oriented BLVD making it a focal point where people can enjoy a nice morning breakfast brunch lunch and dinner even a stroll without the rowdiness of the bars..
Id be open to festivals being hosted on the BLVD but Washington Ave should be Saint.Louis's Main St and thats what i feel is missing here.

I'm hopeful at some point the restaurants/bars can be supported more by the new residential moving in/people in hotels and less by the support of people going downtown from other places. I lived on Wash Ave for awhile and enjoyed it but eventually got tired of some of the hassles that go with living there. I now rarely go downtown except for sporting events and then I usually go to the wheelhouse or flying saucer, not Wash Ave. Parking on Wash Ave isn't the easiest so it doesn't lend itself well to outsiders, in my opinion. I'm fine with it being like that, I just think it means it needs more people living there to support it. It also could be none of the places on Wash Ave are so great that I feel I need to go there, when I can have a better experience somewhere else.

arch city wrote:

goat314 wrote:

FirSTLove wrote:We don't dress ghetto or have any face tattoos or anything that would scare anybody that wasn't just scared of black people.

Not picking a fight......I promise. But what's dressing "ghetto"?

ghetto = an isolated or segregated group or area

So basically I was implying that we were not dressed as if we came from a segregated group or area. Change our skin tone and we probably would have got served in our Dockers, because we just came from a meeting.

Cross posting this from the Downtown West thread...

Great stuff happening on the 1500 block of Washington.... The Sliced Pint should open up later this month in the old Ozzie's spot (I believe the Gills are behind this venture, btw) and the Fashion Incubator should open up in January. Hopefully work on the boutique hotel will begin by the end of the year as well.

My comment about east side bars refers to a conversation I had with a bartender at sidebar before it closed. So, I'm just repeating what a bartender that would know more than anyone the fate of the street. This is a social-economic gap of various crowds, not necessarily about skin color. I remember seeing white guys getting in fights at dubliner too. I agree though that this area just stopped being the "it" place to be, but the cruising crowds and loitering of people not actually going into the bars didn't help it either.
I think a solution is to close the bars earlier and clean up the broken streets, lighting etc. millennials also apparently don't go out like people did ten or twenty years ago. Sad to see so many retail vacancies along the street this week...

St. Louis needs to identify a nightlife district and commit to it, certainly there's room for it, just where's the vision. Why can't we find the success Bourbon Street has? Does St. Louis even want a nightlife scene?

Personally it's not my thing, my days of revelry ended sometime ago, I'd rather have a Chelsea Piers equivalent right on the river.

What ever happened with the plan last year to turn wash ave into a live music district?

I've never understood why Wash Ave couldn't become a destination place for the entire region like a Bourbon Street or Broadway in Nashville. Right now they are losing because the majority of people who go there are from here. I'm not sure how it would be done, but I think the best thing for the strip and downtown as a whole would be to turn it into a true tourist nightlife destination. The new hotels will certainly help, but a cohesive plan for the entire strip should be embraced by the city.

Another promising option is to guide it towards becoming a retail corridor. The entrepreneurial spirit is already there, and god knows downtown needs some shopping options.

We really need to find a district, 'Washington Ave.' , 'The Landing' , wherever and start promoting it as a live music area. I know we have great venues scattered all over town, but we need a concentration of live music venues. Between Mississippi Nights, Kennedy's & other venues, the Landing used to be that, along with Wash. Ave's warehouses. I think one of these districts needs to step and commit to live music. Not only will it make the district vibrant, but it will improve our music scene, create more local music, promote kids to get into music and hopefully take us back to the heyday of the 90s alternative scene. (Urge, Gravity Kills, Stir, SonVolt, MU330, etc). There was a time when STL was voted one of the best music scenes in the country. Washington Avenue's gritty warehouse music club district was a part of that, as was The Landing.

I think the challenge in turning Wash Ave into a nightlife district is that housing is a big component of Wash Ave and many people don't want to live in a nightlife district.

It seems the nightlife district idea runs counter to the trend in recent years of the nightlife going into the neighborhoods. Also isn't one challenge for trying to attract retail is also going up against online retail?

That is what I can never understand. If I move to Wash. Ave, I know I am moving into an entertainment district, same with Soulard. There will be bars and music clubs by me, if I move there. While I can understand people not wanting it to be excessive, it is part of the gig if you move to those places. A prime example of this, is people in Clayton trying to shoot down a large office development, when they live in or near a major business and government hub of the region. There are endless places to live in the STL region, if you want peace and quiet.