The Edge at Lafayette Square (Praxair Site)

urbanitas · PostNov 19, 2019#2762019-11-19T10:06+00:00

newstl2020 wrote: ↑
Nov 19, 2019
Your observation was "this wont happen" and your question was "what does this location have to offer?" I responded to both in detail.

No, you completely ignored my question. There is no shortage of available building sites within a 1-mile radius of this corner. There are dozens of sites that have everything you listed and a whole lot more, similar highway access, better views, nearby demand drivers, better site conditions, much more desirable surroundings, and which, unlike this site, have highway visibility. That doesn't even include dozens more available empty lots in downtown west along Olive, Locust, Washington. Anyone willing to sign a long-term market rate lease for 150k sf of Class A+ space could pretty much have their pick of any of those sites, with office space custom-built on it.

By the way, this is speculative Class A+ office space we are talking about here, not a new HQ for some widget sales and service company in a suburban industrial park in Overland. This kind of office development is rare even in the burbs.

PostNov 19, 2019#2772019-11-19T10:13+00:00

^^Also, Ameren is clearly not as much of a demand driver as you think it is. If there is so much demand for office space near Ameren, why has there been 250k sf of office space sitting empty for at least four years now, just a couple hundred feet north of their office campus? For that matter, why does Ameren still have 50+ empty acres around their HQ?

leeharveyawesome · PostNov 19, 2019#2782019-11-19T16:23+00:00

Even though it looks dangerous and impossible to exit sometimes, Ameren added a fairly nice looking brick entrance/exit on Chouteau along with a slew of electric charging stations. As far as parking lots go it's an upgrade. At least the whole corner is no longer on total shutdown. With the addition of places like the fantastic 21st Street Brewers, Hamilton's and Charleville alongside the longer term tenants as well as Planter's House, Chouteau is much better off now despite it still being an urban disaster. At least it's no longer the Cremation District (look at a map).

Which leads to the question of the day. If a parking lot is filled with electric car charging stations do we like parking lots now because saving the planet?

mjbais1489 · PostNov 19, 2019#2792019-11-19T16:55+00:00

leeharveyawesome wrote: ↑
Nov 19, 2019
Even though it looks dangerous and impossible to exit sometimes, Ameren added a fairly nice looking brick entrance/exit on Chouteau along with a slew of electric charging stations. As far as parking lots go it's an upgrade. At least the whole corner is no longer on total shutdown. With the addition of places like the fantastic 21st Street Brewers, Hamilton's and Charleville alongside the longer term tenants as well as Planter's House, Chouteau is much better off now despite it still being an urban disaster. At least it's no longer the Cremation District (look at a map).

Which leads to the question of the day. If a parking lot is filled with electric car charging stations do we like parking lots now because saving the planet?

Building/Working/living in dense neighborhoods that are walkable/bikable and have highly used & efficient transit is a far superior way to save the planet as compared to electric cars.
But yes, from the current status quo, electric cars are an improvement and should be encouraged.

newstl2020 · PostNov 20, 2019#2802019-11-20T01:20+00:00

urbanitas wrote: ↑
Nov 19, 2019
newstl2020 wrote: ↑
Nov 19, 2019
Your observation was "this wont happen" and your question was "what does this location have to offer?" I responded to both in detail.
No, you completely ignored my question. There is no shortage of available building sites within a 1-mile radius of this corner. There are dozens of sites that have everything you listed and a whole lot more, similar highway access, better views, nearby demand drivers, better site conditions, much more desirable surroundings, and which, unlike this site, have highway visibility. That doesn't even include dozens more available empty lots in downtown west along Olive, Locust, Washington. Anyone willing to sign a long-term market rate lease for 150k sf of Class A+ space could pretty much have their pick of any of those sites, with office space custom-built on it.

By the way, this is speculative Class A+ office space we are talking about here, not a new HQ for some widget sales and service company in a suburban industrial park in Overland. This kind of office development is rare even in the burbs.

"What does this location have to offer?"
"Are there better locations for this type of development?"
Not the same question. But, I think we have sufficiently beat this to death, so for the sake of this thread we can probably move this along.

urbanitas · PostNov 20, 2019#2812019-11-20T09:06+00:00

newstl2020 wrote: ↑
Nov 20, 2019
"Are there better locations for this type of development?"
Not the same question. But, I think we have sufficiently beat this to death, so for the sake of this thread we can probably move this along.

You missed this part of my question: "What is the rationale for proposing that much office space here? At least at Iron Hill there is potential demand..."

My point wasn't just that there are better building sites in the area. They must believe that there is some need or untapped demand for office space in this area, or that there is something unique about the corner of Jefferson and Chouteau that makes it more appealing than all of those other, better building sites nearby. If not, then they must believe that they can create demand for office space by building office space...

STLEnginerd · PostNov 21, 2019#2822019-11-21T14:28+00:00

There are lots of building sites in the city. Most of the best ones are already controlled by other development entities. Some reasons why this site is a nice choice for a development such as this were mentioned. Here are some other reasons.

This site is fairly low cost to develop (consolidated ownership, and no buildings to pay for and subsequently demolish + demo costs)
A Lafayette Square address has some cache as opposed to say a Gate District address. Its just a marketing thing.
When fully built out the site will be integrated into an established and fairly healthy neighborhood as opposed to being on island.
There is superior highway access compared to many other site in or near downtown. The Jefferson ramp is fairly new and well designed as these things go.

I like this project overall. I am surprised there is any garage parking and i think the height is about as good as i would have imagined. Speculatively I really think the site is better for apartments, than office, but if they can secure tenants, which i am sure they wouldn't break ground without, then its a huge win. The fact that its not all surface parking is a huge win. Most street level retail uses would really struggle here. Some might work but I don't see them as a slam dunk.

Personally i would like to see a long garage on the Southeast end of the block and the building wrapping the corner. I also think it make good business sense since the best views are going to be out of the North and East facing Windows. That said I think this project gets at least a solid B which is not bad at all. We don't have stay at home if we aren't going to Ace every test.

Mark Groth · PostNov 21, 2019#2832019-11-21T22:19+00:00

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑
Nov 21, 2019
[li]When fully built out the site will be integrated into an established and fairly healthy neighborhood as opposed to being on island.[/li]

I wish I could agree with this, but I can't. LS will always be an island due to I-44, Chouteau, Jefferson and Truman being full on barriers. It is truly our island neighborhood disconnected physically and architecturally from PDW, Gate District, Industrial area/Ameren and to a lesser extent McKinley Heights. I would not be surprised if the island vibe is also a draw to some who live there.

dylank · PostNov 22, 2019#2842019-11-22T02:23+00:00

^^ What Mark said. Also notice that the new Mackay Street won't open south to the n'hood. (Neither will Missouri Avenue).

urbanitas · PostNov 22, 2019#2852019-11-22T02:26+00:00

Mark Groth wrote: ↑
Nov 21, 2019
STLEnginerd wrote: ↑
Nov 21, 2019
[li]When fully built out the site will be integrated into an established and fairly healthy neighborhood as opposed to being on island.[/li]
I wish I could agree with this, but I can't. LS will always be an island due to I-44, Chouteau, Jefferson and Truman being full on barriers. It is truly our island neighborhood disconnected physically and architecturally from PDW, Gate District, Industrial area/Ameren and to a lesser extent McKinley Heights. I would not be surprised if the island vibe is also a draw to some who live there.

Not only that, but I don't see any indication that this development will be integrated or tied into the Lafayette Square neighborhood. In fact, it shows all the indications of being an island itself, so it will be more like an island upon an island. If anything, the parts of this development currently nearing construction create a barrier between the Lafayette Square residential area and the new mixed-use buildings, with dead-end streets and a block-long row of residential garages and surface parking between them. And there doesn't seem to be any intent to use the new buildings and retail space to help create a streetscape and pedestrian corridor south to Lafayette Square.

PostNov 23, 2019#2862019-11-23T01:00+00:00

As a reminder, there was a lot of concern over the 140k sf of subsidized office space at Ballpark Village. And yet this highly-subsidized Chouteau office building proposal represents 150k sf of brand new Class A+ space, and hundreds of workers, just a quarter mile or less outside of a downtown area in which the city desperately wants and needs to attract more of both. At this location, it will do little to nothing to generate activity downtown, and is much more likely just to pull an existing tenant(s) and activity away from downtown.

And even if it generates some activity for Lafayette Square ( a big if ), is that really where we need it? Lafayette Square seems to be doing fine as it is; as a predominantly residential neighborhood with some restaurant and boutique retail space to serve it...

quincunx · PostJun 27, 2020#2872020-06-27T02:31+00:00

Miracle of Miracles! Adding to the street grid?!

sc4mayor · PostJun 30, 2020#2882020-06-30T16:03+00:00

Hadn't seen this site plan posted here (at least not in the last 4 or 5 pages I looked through):

Absolutely love seeing Lasalle Street come back...but I would love it even more if they reconnected MacKay Place too.

Number 2 is the Lafayette Reserve townhomes, correct?

dylank · PostJun 30, 2020#2892020-06-30T16:10+00:00

^^Yes.

Rearranging how building massing interacts with the ground would be a game-changer for this development. The only four-way intersection in the development is met by a parking garage on the north west and private pool to the north east. Would be great if LaSalle wasn't the "backyard" or alley of all this.

urbanitas · PostJul 01, 2020#2902020-07-01T00:07+00:00

^^Hamilton Place??

What an ego stroke...

And erm, "Romantic Ruin Parklet"?

quincunx · PostJul 01, 2020#2912020-07-01T00:11+00:00

There's a Hamilton Ave elsewhere. We shouldn't have two Hamiltons.

EssTeeEll · PostJul 01, 2020#2922020-07-01T00:18+00:00

quincunx wrote: ↑
Jul 01, 2020
We shouldn't have two Hamiltons.

Who gets to live? Paul or Wendy?

urbanitas · PostJul 01, 2020#2932020-07-01T00:25+00:00

EssTeeEll wrote: ↑
Jul 01, 2020
quincunx wrote: ↑
Jul 01, 2020
We shouldn't have two Hamiltons.
Who gets to live? Paul or Wendy?

Cage match!

symphonicpoet · PostJul 01, 2020#2942020-07-01T07:25+00:00

^^^^Urbanitas,

You figure someone want's to go all Victorian Romantic? It's been a long time since "romantic ruins" were a thing, but they do seem to be coming back. The burned church on Spring is a fairly decent example.

bwcrow1s · PostJul 01, 2020#2952020-07-01T11:38+00:00

urbanitas wrote: ↑
Jul 01, 2020
^^Hamilton Place?? What an ego stroke...

And erm, "Romantic Ruin Parklet"?

Wow. Nice spot.

Yeah, that is a bit shameless. I know they've done a lot for the surrounding area, but.. yeah..

urbanitas · PostJul 02, 2020#2962020-07-02T06:06+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Jul 01, 2020
^^^^Urbanitas,

You figure someone want's to go all Victorian Romantic? It's been a long time since "romantic ruins" were a thing, but they do seem to be coming back. The burned church on Spring is a fairly decent example.

Apparently. It finally dawned on me what the ruins in their "Romantic Ruin Parklet" are. I'm dubious, but I suppose there will be enough room in here for "romance"...

EssTeeEll · PostJul 02, 2020#2972020-07-02T12:57+00:00

dylank wrote: ↑
Jun 30, 2020
Rearranging how building massing interacts with the ground would be a game-changer for this development.

Agreed. If they insist on the garage, I wish it was more buried inside of this whole thing instead of prominently along Chouteau . I'm assuming it's just a garage and no street level space for retail? Not that I'm sure how those would do here. The #4 building along Jefferson & Chouteau should probably have the "L" shape of a couple of the other buildings so that it wraps around that corner. Also...why a parking lot 10 feet from a parking garage? Lol.

But it's hard to deny it's not a win overall. Have they started yet?

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostJul 02, 2020#2982020-07-02T14:43+00:00

This whole plan is a missed opportunity to extend the LaSalle corridor east of Jefferson. Granted it's not very polished west of Jefferson either (Quicktrip didn't help), but I've always thought there was potential for more.

Also is the office building (4) going to have a retail component now that they are calling it mixed use? That would be nice.

shadrach · PostJul 02, 2020#2992020-07-02T15:05+00:00

My guess with the surface lot next to the garage—

The garage probably requires an employee badge to enter/park. The surface lot is probably for visitors, vendors, building maintenance, contractors, etc.

bwcrow1s · PostJul 02, 2020#3002020-07-02T15:12+00:00

Yeah. Combining 6 and 8 (surface lot) together into just one slim garage and leave the Chouteau frontage for a building is a no-brainer. Or pull the pocket park. These are different developers though, correct?

That will be depressing. I mean, if N/S comes to fruition (hold breath here), we have yet another massive garage along a route. This is Ingrassia's ward yes?

I'm not going to argue that this isn't still a win, and a huge improvement over blight, but, can't they try just a little bit harder? Why would you want one of the main faces of your development to be a garage? So folks don't drive over, and immediately panic that they won't have an easy parking spot?

The Edge at Lafayette Square (Praxair Site)

Choose Display Mode