urbanSTL

trent wrote:I would be surprised, based upon current information, if they were able to start actual construction by the end of the football season. That doesn't mean they can't start excavating in parts...but I think the northern end of the property is safe.



Also, I'd like to say that nowhere has it been stated that the BPV is getting an ESPNZone. There have been rumors that there will be one, but the only official word we've gotten is that there will be a sports grill restaurant similar to ESPNZone in BPV. But I do agree that Rawlings would be better for BPV over BD.



If we do get an ESPNZone, I think it should be Boston or New York themed instead of St. Louis, it would make it more authentic for ESPN.

But hasn't the developer of the BPV been responsible for a couple of the ESPNZones?



Based upon their website all ESPNZones are company owned and are not franchises.

DeBaliviere wrote:And it will have to have huge murals of Terrell Owens and Danica Patrick.

OMG... I'd like a Danica Patrick mural in my room...HOT!

dweebe wrote:


But hasn't the developer of the BPV been responsible for a couple of the ESPNZones?



Based upon their website all ESPNZones are company owned and are not franchises.

That doesn't matter. You're missing the point. We haven't been told a list of ANY retailers for BPV. What we have is an idea of what will be there from the Cardinals, and the past history of Cordish. The Cardinals have stated their desire for an ESPNZone-like sports bar and grille, but with a Cardinal theme (obviously). Cordish has not announced any actual retailers that have signed up to be apart of the Village.



So, saying we're getting an ESPNZone is false.



Every retailer involved in BPV at this point is pure speculation. And for that matter, every retailer other than Rawlings and Cabo Wabo in BD is speculation as well.

trent wrote:

dweebe wrote:


But hasn't the developer of the BPV been responsible for a couple of the ESPNZones?



Based upon their website all ESPNZones are company owned and are not franchises.

That doesn't matter. You're missing the point. We haven't been told a list of ANY retailers for BPV. What we have is an idea of what will be there from the Cardinals, and the past history of Cordish. The Cardinals have stated their desire for an ESPNZone-like sports bar and grille, but with a Cardinal theme (obviously). Cordish has not announced any actual retailers that have signed up to be apart of the Village.



So, saying we're getting an ESPNZone is false.



Every retailer involved in BPV at this point is pure speculation. And for that matter, every retailer other than Rawlings and Cabo Wabo in BD is speculation as well.

Do you get your kicks off pointing out how stupid other people are?

trent wrote:

dweebe wrote:


But hasn't the developer of the BPV been responsible for a couple of the ESPNZones?



Based upon their website all ESPNZones are company owned and are not franchises.

That doesn't matter. You're missing the point. We haven't been told a list of ANY retailers for BPV. What we have is an idea of what will be there from the Cardinals, and the past history of Cordish. The Cardinals have stated their desire for an ESPNZone-like sports bar and grille, but with a Cardinal theme (obviously). Cordish has not announced any actual retailers that have signed up to be apart of the Village.



So, saying we're getting an ESPNZone is false.



Every retailer involved in BPV at this point is pure speculation. And for that matter, every retailer other than Rawlings and Cabo Wabo in BD is speculation as well.

Thank you for posting well researched and correct information all of the time trent, I as well as many other appreciate it. =D> =D> =D>

It was simply a guess that an ESPNZone might be a possibility for the BPV. I don’t think anyone ever stated that an ESPNZone is a 100% guaranteed lock for the BPV.



I simply thought an ESPNZone might be built in the BPV because the developer and ESPNZone have a previous relationship.



For example some of the Mills malls have NASCAR stores in them (including here in St. Louis). If they built a new Mills in say the Twin Cities: I wouldn’t say there’s anything wrong with guessing a NASCAR store might be a possible tenant.



Another example: a fair amount of the Westfield malls have Borders Bookstores. (South County and Mid Rivers included). Let’s say Westfield decides to build a new enclosed mall in Edwardsville Illinois. Is there anything wrong is guessing that a Borders might be a tenant?

dweebe,



Don't get offended. I wasn't trying to point out anyone being stupid. My point is that the way this site operates, it's easy for rumors to become fact. And when we're dealing with rumors, we need to make sure they stay rumors. It's just a personal opinion that we should be careful about stating what will and won't be apart of these projects when we have no official word.



I just think, since I feel this site is the premier location to find out about St. Louis development, that we need to make sure the facts about the project are clear.



I also think that making a judgement based upon Cordish history with ESPNZone, that it's a pretty fair guess that one will be put into BPV. But we need to be careful because Bill DeWit might have wanted his own sports bar similar to ESPNZone, but with a Cardinal theme. Or Albert Pujols, or another Ozzie's...who knows.



So if you felt slighted, my apologies. It wasn't aimed at you, just a general comment regarding the difference between rumors, educated guesses, and fact.

Everyone around here seems pretty smart. I suppose it's all relative though. Perhaps that makes me stupid. Hmm, something to ponder.....

dweebe wrote:Do you get your kicks off pointing out how stupid other people are?

The project is no longer on forum studio

A freind of mine is a small time developer and I know for a fact that the BD people have approached him about opening something up in the development. ... they gave him a little brochure about the project and it contains the very same renderings you see on Ghazi's site. So I would assume that those designs are pretty much final ...

^Yeah, the whole Libeskind thing was too good to be true, I fear. I just can't picture St. Louis being progressive enough for that.

please ask your friend if there is a date on the brochure please.

i'll ask him ... i know he's kind of skeptical about the whole thing. Wouldn't read that much into his opinion though

It has been a while since I followed this link, but can anyone tell me why Ghazi has been removed from TBD website? Just curious. Thanks.

^ No idea, but the project is still on Ghazi's site for whatever that is worth.

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:^Yeah, the whole Libeskind thing was too good to be true, I fear. I just can't picture St. Louis being progressive enough for that.

Well, we were once progressive enough for the work of Eero Saarinen.

ThreeOneFour wrote:

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:^Yeah, the whole Libeskind thing was too good to be true, I fear. I just can't picture St. Louis being progressive enough for that.

Well, we were once progressive enough for the work of Eero Saarinen.

Over much public outcry.

I think we need to correctly define progressive. I never thought the Libeskind design was "progressive" - it was a re-tread of the Freedom Tower design. Once Libeskind was awarded the Freedom Tower project he turned into a design broker, so they removed him from the project. Libeskind was only on TBD project to attempt CPR on a project that has flat-lined.



That being said, I would love to see something truly progressive downtown in the spirit of Saarinen's Gateway Arch and not some re-hashed idea from a flavor-of-the-month architect.

I loved his original design ... assuming that they could modify it slightly to open up the streets and surround the footprints with street level retail

^^I would agree that the first designs put out by Libeskind were a rehash of FT in NY, but the final presentation by him had a lot more thought in regards to the Arch with elements of our wonderful Arch incorporated very respectfully and successfully, without being too obvious, IMO.

Defining progressive is largely a matter of taste. One mans progressive is another mans blah. IMO they were more progressive then anything else shown so far, but that's not saying much at this point.

jambalaya wrote:I think we need to correctly define progressive. I never thought the Libeskind design was "progressive" - it was a re-tread of the Freedom Tower design. Once Libeskind was awarded the Freedom Tower project he turned into a design broker, so they removed him from the project. Libeskind was only on TBD project to attempt CPR on a project that has flat-lined.

Yes, but Libeskind's design for the Freedom Tower isn't really being used, so if his design was used here, then it would not be a "re-tread", it would be original. So, would it then be "progressive"?

That is such lame circular logic. It was originally designed for NY and since they relieved him of the project he was originally awarded through competition, he picks up his design and tries to make it fit here. Call it what you wish, but "original" it is not. And by the way, Libeskind has not worked on this project since his first release (or re-release as it were). The design modifications were provided by Forum Studio - Libeskind has not touched this project in almost a year. Please remeber what he was called in to provide - he was a hired gun to attempt to provide some national attention for a project that missed its development window of opportunity. The "you snooze - you lose" saying is very appropriate for this development. And while I would admit that the Freedom Tower knock-off was more interesting (in a sculptural sense) than the most recent renderings provided by Ghazi - it still needs to be financially feasible and have a realistic market/end users. The best thing for TBD would be to package up all 16-acres and sell it to a developer who knows the region and knows what they are doing (I am tired of watching this current ownership group continue to shoot themselves in the foot). Fish or cut bait.

Libeskind's got several high-rises going up around the world now. They all pretty much look the same.