The Bottle District

bastiat · PostSep 28, 2005#2762005-09-28T00:25+00:00

Cochran is the housing project next door to Neighborhood Gardens. According to them it will be similar to what was done at Blumeyer and Darst-Wehby.

Please tell me you are kidding. Hopefully these ones won't be as bad as the usual, but still, if anything is going to kill the Bottle District, it will be because there are housing projects surrounding it (kinda like Larry Rice trying to build the homeless shelter next to Kiel). Even if the crime rate is low in this one, people from outside the city will view this as reason to believe the city will never regain its glory.

Does anyone have a link to the plan for this? It's too bad the gov't won't just step aside and let private initiative rebuild the city-just like it built the city to begin with.

soulardd · PostSep 28, 2005#2772005-09-28T12:40+00:00

I try to consider myself an urban-minded, progressive fellow, but I kind of agree because of a bad experience I recently had. I rode my bike down to look at the bottle district last week, and I approached it from the west, unfortunately riding down the street just to the south of the high-rise projects.

I realized I shouldn't linger around that area, so I began to speed up, which turned out to be a good idea. Nothing bad actually happened to me, but part of me is afraid that it's just because I was moving quickly. Let's just say that some of the things yelled at me made it clear that I was unwelcome as a light-skinned man to be there. The most depressing part is that I saw a 10-12 year old boy taunting me as well. I'm not trying to start a political debate here, I'm just relaying a personal experience that really kind of bummed me out.

southslider · PostSep 28, 2005#2782005-09-28T13:39+00:00

Since Hope VI, projects have come a long way since Pruitt-Igoe or Cabrini-Green. Indeed, the later is being redeveloped unlike the former demolished and most infamous of projects.

In St. Louis, like the near-southside redevelopment of Darst-Webby into King Louie, Cochran Gardens will likely become a low-rise, mixed-income development. And these redevelopments are being done by the private sector, like McCormack-Baron-Salazar.

The mixed-income aspect obviously changes the dynamic of projects warehousing poverty. As for density, believe it or not, low-rise redevelopment can actually provide denser activity near the street despite the lack of towers. Many past projects comprised a tower-in-the-park design, or tall residences surrounded by green space. As such, the lack of vital streetlife and hidden internal semi-public spaces created more opportunity for crime.

Also, Hope VI redevelopments often reintroduce the street grid into these former superblocks, line the streets with doors and windows, creating more street-level density than stacked housing units. Ironically, the older Neighborhood Gardens courtyard apartments is somewhat a model for Cochran's surrounding redevelopment for massing and scale, dividing up public spaces into more manageable pockets surrounded by windows and doors overlooking them.

The only irony then, is how the Bottle District is following a more tower-in-park design, while Cochran is moving away from it. Hopefully, the two developments could be better sited to lend life to each other, but from the latest site plans, it would appear the Bottle District will be turning its back on its closest residential neighbors by lining all its less desirable streetwalls on their shared 7th street border.

jmedwick · PostSep 28, 2005#2792005-09-28T13:55+00:00

SoulardD brings up an itnersting point about the areas around the Bottle District. One wonders how the residents will take too having all this development so close to there homes, particulary the very tall towers. In some ways it might be good, making it more of a mixed income area, making it harder for the youths to yell such things because there are more than just the lone white person riding there bike. But at the same time, the residents might be resentful and very angry about the development, making the area more contensious. Very intersting.

MattnSTL · PostSep 28, 2005#2802005-09-28T14:03+00:00

I've walked the area on foot around the bottle district and neighborhood gardens 3 times in the last 2 weeks, and I haven't had a problem. Actually, the few people I have passed on the street all said Hi to me. Maybe it's just because I have been there in the early afternoon. It will be interesting to see what happens.

debaliviere · PostSep 28, 2005#2812005-09-28T14:34+00:00

It's not as if the entire area is housing projects - the Neighborhood Gardens development will add some economic diversity, and the Columbus Square townhouses to the west are quite nice as well.

par · PostSep 28, 2005#2822005-09-28T14:45+00:00

jerks are jerks, if you're intimidated because someone is yelling at you, you're entitled. if you feel more intimidated because they are poor or black or because of where they live- that's your problem.

jcity · PostSep 28, 2005#2832005-09-28T15:39+00:00

To be quite honest. I wish this Cochran Development was happening several blocks farther away from the Bottle District. I'm sure I'll be castigated for saying this. But let's be honest, if a "project" is built next to the entertainment showplace in St. Louis, it might intimidate some people.

MattnSTL · PostSep 28, 2005#2842005-09-28T15:44+00:00

As long as it is not highrise projects, I think it will be OK. I know it won't be, so I think the biggest issue is making sure there is a really good design of the buildings, and getting the street grid put back in place through the Cochracn Gardens area. To be honest, I'm not sure how many people will see the area from the Bottle District. There will be buildings in the way from street level, and Neighborhood Gardens is starting to look good since windows have been started to be installed.

xing · PostSep 28, 2005#2852005-09-28T19:11+00:00

This situation is like Cabrini Green in Chicago. It's a major housing project and fancy high rises are going up all around it.

southcitygent · PostSep 28, 2005#2862005-09-28T19:22+00:00

Cochran is already there, its redo will only improve the area. It is a shame to have a concentration of poverty so close to the city center, it is probably the main reason the near north side has taken so long to improve.

soulardd · PostSep 28, 2005#2872005-09-28T19:23+00:00

jerks are jerks, if you're intimidated because someone is yelling at you, you're entitled. if you feel more intimidated because they are poor or black or because of where they live- that's your problem.

If I were intimidated by people because they are poor, black, or where they live I wouldn't live where I do, and I wouldn't have ridden down there.

arch city · PostSep 28, 2005#2882005-09-28T19:35+00:00

Xing wrote:This situation is like Cabrini Green in Chicago. It's a major housing project and fancy high rises are going up all around it.

^Exactly, Xing. Visit 4th Ward in Houston. Shotgun shacks next to multi-million dollar condo "projects" and office towers looming in the background.

Generally speaking though, "projects" don't equal bad people or crime. I think some people na?vely get into the habit of blanketing a whole community because of the actions of a few. Suburbanesque communities, for example, are chock full of pedophiles, bank robbers, thieves, embezzlers, batterers, cross burners, drug dealers, murderers, and the like yet they don't stigmatized like certain urban communities and neighborhoods. Nonetheless, it is the BEHAVIOR a few people who happen to live anywhere that cause problems for any community.

St. Louis City is URBANITY in America. Go to any REAL urban city in the United States and you will see "projects" or low-income areas in the shadows of downtown and near "coveted projects". Chicago, Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Manhattan all have projects a stone's throw from coveted urban projects. Typically, if you live in a central city in the United States of America, you can expect there to be people of all socio-economic, races, cultures, and educational backgrounds living in the vicinity or two or three blocks away. If people want the illusions of a sterile environment let them stay where they are. Don't come. Let them continue building mega subdivisions in Lincoln County.

SoulardD's experience reminds me of a few of my own in South City back in the day. One even happened outside of a city police station of all places. It really made me feel good about the cops in St. Louis (sarcasm). Unfortunately, ignorant people are everywhere, and fortunately I know all cops aren't bad.

In conclusion, if people don't want to live nor visit the Bottle District because it is next to a "project" - screw 'em. In essence, 99.9% of the people living in the Cochran Gardens are going to care less about the Bottle District, its tenants and visitors.

marmar · PostSep 29, 2005#2892005-09-29T02:29+00:00

Public Housing in big cities in the past (Pruitt Igoe, Darste-Webbe, etc.) were hell holes where people were stacked up floor upon floor and left to themselves with no management. But the thing is, they had no choice when it came to public housing. If people had had a choice to move from these projects, I'd think they certainly would have.

I think public housing seems to have gotten it's act together (maybe Bertha Gilkey woke some people up). Today, with projects like King Louis Apartments there is a mix of income. (Hopefully within the complex is a mixture of ethnicity, too) I support this. Okay, architecturally its butt ugly, but I think the people who live there WANT to be there, whereas before it wasn't a matter of choice, but a matter of being on welfare and being black.

I drive by King Louis Apartments frequently and it looks peaceful and quiet, the way a neighborhood of families with children should be. If I'm wrong, someone enlighten me.

Is this new project fueling adverse feelings simply because of color and/or social standing? Maybe, after they're built, there could be a neighborhood association that works to keep EVERYONE safe and secure.

ucityman · PostSep 29, 2005#2902005-09-29T03:27+00:00

Arch City wrote:St. Louis City is URBANITY in America. Go to any REAL urban city in the United States and you will see "projects" or low-income areas in the shadows of downtown and near "coveted projects". Chicago, Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Manhattan all have projects a stone's throw from coveted urban projects. Typically, if you live in a central city in the United States of America, you can expect there to be people of all socio-economic, races, cultures, and educational backgrounds living in the vicinity or two or three blocks away. If people want the illusions of a sterile environment let them stay where they are. Don't come. Let them continue building mega subdivisions in Lincoln County.

good points arch. To my best knowledge from personal studies, the biggest problem with poverty in america is exactly this kind of attitude, where everybody wants to hide from the reality of it and make it invisible. If you can make poverty invisible, then it gives you no reason to feel guilty or worry about it. Thus it becomes non-existent

On top of this, i think they're a good group with a good development

comandantecero · PostSep 29, 2005#2912005-09-29T18:27+00:00

i don't think it's a good idea to wharehouse poor people in projects. It's much better to distribute them all around the city across many neighborhoods so they can mix with various incomes and types of people.

Cabrini-Green is something of a dated example... my understanding is that they are undergoing a 10 year process of demolition and redevelopment. Basically knocking down the old project buildings, and letting developers build upscale apartments and townhomes with a certain proportion reserved for former Cabrini families. They're still seeing if it will work out...... lots of people are skeptical, since they are running some crazy subsidies to keep low income people in what amounts to a luxury community. Not to mention, most of the project families aren't going to be housed in the area after redevelopment, only a certain amount who are able to get in on the waiting list. Most others are being redistributed to other housing projects or programs in the city.

I agree great urbanism brings you into contact with all kinds of people, regardless of race and income. I think both the rich and poor would be better off by having that. Neither people in the exurbs, nor people in the projects get to experience this.

loulou · PostSep 29, 2005#2922005-09-29T19:23+00:00

anybody know whether there's been a consultation process or any dialogue between the bottle district developers and the cochran residents?

MattnSTL · PostSep 29, 2005#2932005-09-29T19:24+00:00

I doubt it, but it's possible.

Expat · PostSep 29, 2005#2942005-09-29T19:31+00:00

This thing will be great for Cochran residents. The BD will be loaded with entry level jobs within walking distance. I am wondering how this will effect the houses around St. Joseph Shrine. Does anyone understand the connection? I can't put my mind around it. If it is a block or two away, I think they would see an increase in property value. I kind of like those townhouses. Especially the little castle-like ones.

MattnSTL · PostSep 29, 2005#2952005-09-29T19:33+00:00

I never thought of it like that, Expat. But that is a good point, there will be a lot of good jobs in here that could help to get people around there on there feet.

debaliviere · PostSep 29, 2005#2962005-09-29T19:41+00:00

I think you're right about the property values of the Columbus Square townhouses going up when the BD is done. That's kind of a cool little neighborhood - the townhouses are really tucked away. They just need a little more development around them to the north to be really cool.

loulou · PostSep 29, 2005#2972005-09-29T19:43+00:00

sorry, guys, but i have to jump in here again. of course it will be great if there are plenty of jobs at the bottle district, especially if they go to people who live close by.

BUT...

the residents of cochran aren't just prospective employees, they're prospective neighbors, too. if the BD developers aren't talking to them during the building process, they're missing a golden opportunity to help create the kind of urban community that we're all so fond of.

Expat · PostSep 29, 2005#2982005-09-29T19:49+00:00

Loulou, I wish it were so, but I doubt if that will happen. I am not disagreeing with you, but just saying it won't happen. I hope I am wrong. It would be really great if they showed that kind of concern.

It would be cool if they had a job training program to help people move into some of the jobs that are likely to become available.

MattnSTL · PostSep 30, 2005#2992005-09-30T03:49+00:00

I went down to the Bottle District site on Tuesday after class to take a couple of pics. Unforunately, the ground breaking ceremonies were already over, but I expected that. Work hasn't really started on a large scale yet, just some demo, utility work, and a bit of digging.

soulardd · PostSep 30, 2005#3002005-09-30T11:43+00:00

Well, it's really happening. I gotta say I'm pretty pumped, I just hope it turns out to be what it has the potential to be. Now that those saying it would never happen have been proven wrong, they'll surely start saying all 4 phases will never happen. Any thoughts on whether all 4 will be successful... and by 2008?!

The Bottle District

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