The Bottle District

jmatthewmckee · PostSep 23, 2007#14262007-09-23T19:35+00:00

While I am sure the TBD project lives on in some form, given the real estate market combined with what is rumored to be a large residential neighborhood project proposed by Pinnacle adjacent to the Casino (read not divided by downtown by Cole and the Dome and not divided from the landing by I-70 and Broadway) and the competition from developments like Chouteau's Landing and the Ballpark Village, I am fine with the owners and developers sitting on this property for 5 or 7 years, refining their vision and increasing the possibilities that development on the site can take full advantage of the progress downtown had made.

That's right on. With the market being down, I'd much rather them wait it out and have the possibility of them actually doing that high-rise that tops the arch instead of doing a low-rise hot mess right now. I think if it happens soon, in a few years we'll be picking it apart like the dome right now wishing things had been done differerntly when we could do it right the first time!

PostOct 05, 2007#14272007-10-05T11:38+00:00

If all goes well, the long-awaited Bottle District north of the Edward Jones Dome in downtown may get off the ground by next summer, says the team behind the project. But it's unclear what the district will be.

Clayco, based in Overland, and Dan McGuire, president of St. Louis-based McGuire Moving & Storage Inc. have formed a 50-50 joint venture partnership called Bottle District Investors LLC. The new company is expected to close next week on an approximately $15 million deal to acquire 13 acres from BDP LLC, the previous development partnership that included McGuire and his two brothers.

His brothers no longer are part of the project, McGuire said.

Bob Clark, chairman and chief executive of Clayco, said construction could start by next summer. Advertisement

The Bottle District was first announced in 2004 as a $200 million, 900,000-square-foot development with 260 apartments and condominiums, a go-kart racetrack, a concert hall and a bowling alley. The latest plan had included three high-rise condos, the tallest at 630 feet.

"What we have had is three or four different master plans we thought were terrific, but we are improving on every one of those," McGuire said. "This next one will be the final, and it will be the best one."

Linkhttp://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/busine ... enDocument

Love the line about them throwing 50 ideas in a hat and picking the best one.

rbb · PostOct 05, 2007#14282007-10-05T11:52+00:00

There is a possibility the project will include some residential component — lofts or apartments — but for now, Clark said, "residential is dead, so we are not planning to build high-rise condo buildings."

Understandable, but disappointing.

"When you see how well Branson does, I think you could duplicate a mini version of that concept in downtown," Clark said. "It would be a really good fit with the convention business and what's going on with Pinnacle."

Please don't make the city I love into Branson....

Clark also would like to see an architectural icon of some sort, similar to what the Arch brings to the riverfront.

Now we're talking. I'm glad, at least, to see some movement on the project again. Hopefully it will integrate well into the urban fabric.

Wonder how long it'll take to get some updated renderings.

-RBB

jmatthewmckee · PostOct 05, 2007#14292007-10-05T12:48+00:00

Yah, I can't imagine a mini Branson. I can see why they're thinking this though...with BPV and MX, TBD can't take the classic "mixed-use" route anymore, so they're trying to find something unique. I just hope they don't go for an amusement park theme

I don't do the concert scene much, but I didn't think there was a shortage on music halls/concert venues. Could be wrong...

little egyptian · PostOct 05, 2007#14302007-10-05T13:21+00:00

A mini-Branson ... I thought that was also the proposal for a large tract of land near Pinckneyville on the Illinois side.

Why does everyone want to do a mini-Branson? Can't people come up with something else that is family-friendly without doing a mini-Branson or theme park? Geez. If they are going to go with the Music Theme, I would try to recreate something more like Beale Street (only cleaner without the buildings that may or may not fall down) and then put a few stories of lofts on top of it all. That would give the convention folks something to do. But, I don't particularly like that idea either. But, since we are throwing 50 into a hat, why not propose away!

And ... while we are throwing 50 ideas into a hat ... here's one. Since you got a big chuck of land, why not try to lure another large company downtown. There is plenty of room for a campus there and all the infill needed to supply it. Now that we got one coming back downtown, let's go for another. Slay and Co. seem happy enough to provide rock bottom incentives. Then you would actually have a reason to develop this land instead of trying to "think of something" that will be a reason in and of itself.

I wish they would just stop with this. I know it is expensive to be sitting on vacant land so close to the action downtown when that land could be making some money, but I really do think they stand to make much more money on this property if they just sit on it for 5-10 years. When all the retail and housing in BPV and the MX is full and Lumire is squarely in their second phase, I think the Bottle District could do a lot better.

Alex Ihnen · PostOct 05, 2007#14312007-10-05T14:06+00:00

The article isn't exactly inspiring! I suppose entertainment downtown isn't a bad idea by itself, but again, why isn't the city pushing for a performing arts districts, whether it be Grand Center, built around a renovated Keil - whatever. I guess I think that Newport on the Levee (the south side of the Ohio River from Cincinnati) could work here - though their retial has suffered greatly. They have an aquarium, movie theatre, some restaurants . . .

shadrach · PostOct 05, 2007#14322007-10-05T14:15+00:00

I was originally excited about this three years ago and now I'm not.

I think this is effort in the wrong location. Personally, I'd like to see the city focus and push for big developments like this in a narrow Riverfront/I-64/Kingshighway/Delmar corridor.

This is the biggest potential for urban vibrancy and density. Fill in the gaps there and then worry about areas.

(the opinions on an armchair planner)

matt drops the h · PostOct 05, 2007#14332007-10-05T14:16+00:00

I guess mixed-use development is impossible in downtown St. Louis (?). I hate to play devil's advocate, but how can we possibly say our downtown is "back" when we cannot secure residential? How did the BD go from multiple condo towers, one as tall as the arch, to a minute "maybe"?

To me, the diffidence communicated by Clayco/McGuire should serve as a warning to the Pyramid/General Growth Mercantile Exchange effort. Ideas and dollars may be flowing into downtown, but why won't the would-be residents?

Alex Ihnen · PostOct 05, 2007#14342007-10-05T14:30+00:00

^ I think the thing to remember is that residential downtown is booming. The increase in downtown residents is very substantial with all the completed and soon-to-be-completed projects. If no additional residental is added to what we know to be in progress, there will still have been a huge percentage increase in residential in downtown. I don't think we can expect to go from 5,000 residents to 25,000 in five years. I think the current expansion will continue, but it will have its ebbs and flows.

matt drops the h · PostOct 05, 2007#14352007-10-05T14:41+00:00

Skyhouse is a ways off, and Ballpark Village will add a few residents. What else is there, now that the loft market is nearly completely saturated?

I'm not being critical or negative. I honestly do wonder where the DTSTL partnership residential numbers come from.

I think to myself, if an area such as downtown had even 15,000 residents, given the relatively small space allotted for residential downtown, wouldn't that be a significant level of density that would show itself more on the streets on week nights?

I'm not sure though. 25,000 would be spectacular (the most populous St. Louis neighborhood by far!).

roy314 · PostOct 05, 2007#14362007-10-05T15:03+00:00

The location is a bit awkward. But it will be adjacent to Rams/Convention Center and the Casino. The question is whether the BD will duplicate the offerings of Laclede's Landing. I think the Casino will be oriented towards Laclede's Landing (physically and financially).

brickandmortar · PostOct 05, 2007#14372007-10-05T15:11+00:00

I think it's time to go back to the drawing board with this project(for the tenth time). While entertainment districts are all the rage, the location coupled with other developments actually moving forward is taking what momentum is left away from this project. What if a neighborhood was built the land instead of TBD? Given the area's demographics already this would be a better fit. I'm not talking about McCree town crap, rather build structures similar to ONSL.

shadrach · PostOct 05, 2007#14382007-10-05T15:34+00:00

Roy314 wrote:The location is a bit awkward. But it will be adjacent to Rams/Convention Center and the Casino. The question is whether the BD will duplicate the offerings of Laclede's Landing. I think the Casino will be oriented towards Laclede's Landing (physically and financially).

Probably. I think the immediate needs of Rams/Convention Center peoples needs could be addressed with the available space next to the dome (the old Union Market/Drury and 555 Washington. Most of the is empty. Put a Chi-Chis, Numero Uno and/or a mini footprint Dave & Busters and the suburban post game/post Home Show crowd is happy.

mattonarsenal · PostOct 05, 2007#14392007-10-05T19:16+00:00

This is just sad. You can feel the desperation in the story. Branson?

That site is about the most inaccessible piece of land in downtown. Have you ever tried to get there by car or on foot. Driving from downtown, you can pass it, but because of one-ways and street layouts, it is very difficult to actually get to.

And as a pedestrian almost everything in the convention complex is focused back toward downtown. You can't avoid the fact that this site is at the ass end of the biggest superblock in the region.

From Broadway to Tucker there is not one public access point to buildings south side of Cole, with the exception of the Cole Street entrance to the dome at Broadway. Most of it is loading and service entrances for the dome and convention center, but even the parking garages and one office building in this stretch don't have entrances on Cole Street.

Here's my contribution to the 50 ideas in a hat. Turn it into a kick-ass skate park and wait for better days.

metzgda · PostOct 05, 2007#14402007-10-05T20:32+00:00

Yeah, I don't like the direction this project is headed. They're going to have a tough time signing on retail with all that is going forward downtown right now. IMO, it would be best to sit on it for a few years and see how everything else plays out. That land will become very valuable if MX works as planned and the casino is a big hit.

Bottom line is that this area needs to return the street grid and mix retail, residential and office to be a success. This "branson" idea is just another STL Centre waiting to bust. I hope the city retracts it's public money unless they change to a plan that makes sense.

Alex Ihnen · PostOct 05, 2007#14412007-10-05T21:11+00:00

Should it be considered a positive that Clayco jumped on this and left the BPV development? Does their seeming faith in this development mean anything? I wonder if they got a bigger piece of the pie at TBD. Even with the delays etc at BPV, that project is years ahead of TBD.

timeforguinness · PostOct 05, 2007#14422007-10-05T21:43+00:00

You know what would look good there? Another brewery.

newstl2020 · PostOct 05, 2007#14432007-10-05T22:51+00:00

Possibly the U.S. branch of Guinness? The Branson idea is one of the worst things I've heard in a long time. The best thing they could possibly do here is return the land to the downtown street-grid (as stated above) and wait out development options. Another thing that would be very key to developing this project would be if they could work out an overhaul of the North side of the Dome/Convention center. Something as simple as a different facade could make a world of difference, as it looks industrial now and is most certainly lowering all the neighboring property values. Going back to fantasy land, it would be very cool if we could extend the streets into tunnels running under the convention center and re-emeriging on the North side. Would improve the access to these blocks, and make downtown traffic much more fluid in that area. Out of fantasy land, I would actually prefer for them to sit on the land and do nothing (as much as that goes against my instincts) for at least a few more years. Who knows, maybe stl hits a tipping point in terms of development within the next 2-3 years and there is good, useful need for the land, as opposed to a half-ass development put in place there because everything else that could be thought of right now is allready taken.

jmatthewmckee · PostOct 06, 2007#14442007-10-06T01:14+00:00

I'm glad the housing authority is restoring 8th street and and O'fallon. I've got the site plan for phase 2 and they will have a breeze way where Biddle should go between 8th and 9th. Per Kennedy & Assoc, the funding wasn't there to restore Biddle but the right-of-way will at least be there for the possibility of restoring the street in the future. Beyond the dome being a superblock that disconnects the north, I think the Courtyards at Cityside was the wrong scale of development for that side of Cole. The contrast is just too sharp. On one side of Cole you have structures that are 3, 4 and 5 stories tall and then across the street everything is strictly 2 and 3 stories now. It just doesn't seem to flow right. Just my opinion.

As for Cole...I did a post a couple of weeks ago seeking ideas on how to improve that street. I would like to see the hanging planters that are on Washington...that would be the least they can do. Having the shipping/receiving doors is one thing, but every other space along Cole that isn't a shipping/receiving dock has been turned into a parking space. If they could at least remove those parking spaces and plant some trees there like they did along the Broadway side, that would help immensely.

dredger · PostOct 06, 2007#14452007-10-06T02:11+00:00

Clayco certainly has the resources to sit on this property in my mind. Even the ability to build a few mind numbing box stores to kill time and recover part of that 15 mil. My thought is that they are betting on a new Mississippi River bridge with a parkway access coming off the bridge into downtown from the north. The area would become very accessible from Metro East.

My combined throw in the hat plus pie in the sky suggestion. Open air football stadium with built in snowmakers on this property and replace the Edwards Dome with an expanded convention center and mixed used anchored by the Edward Jones Tower (Centene gets views of the Cards, Edwards gets views of the Rams, both get views of the Arch and River). The bonus, in my mind, is that this would tie in better with Washington Street, Mercantile Exchange, Convention Center, Casino and Laclede Landing.

Alex Ihnen · PostOct 06, 2007#14462007-10-06T02:17+00:00

Dredger wrote:
My combined throw in the hat plus pie in the sky suggestion. Open air football stadium with built in snowmakers on this property and replace the Edwards Dome with an expanded convention center and mixed used anchored by the Edward Jones Tower (Centene gets views of the Cards, Edwards gets views of the Rams, both get views of the Arch and River). The bonus, in my mind, is that this would tie in better with Washington Street, Mercantile Exchange, Convention Center, Casino and Laclede Landing.

IMO - this all makes a lot of sense. In 10 years the bridge issue will likely be settled, the Rams might be asking for a new stadium and the convention center may be looking at expanding, ONSL will be further redeveloped, the North loft district may have residents - there's a lot of potential. If nothing else, I think this is a great piece of land to own. Who knows what's going to go there, but it's near a lot of development.

jlblues · PostOct 06, 2007#14472007-10-06T02:38+00:00

One more idea for the hat:

I kind of liked the original proposal for the Bottle District, the idea of using that area as some sort of amusement park along with a new hotel/conference center/travelling exhibit showroom type of development. This would tie very well into, and augment, the convention facilities and the casino, and it would give tourists something else to do downtown besides visiting the Arch. Conventioneers could drop the family off at the amusement park and then walk over to the convention center. Gamblers could go gamble while the (older) kids go to the amusement park.

What kind of amusement park? Ideally, something that wouldn't compete directly with Six Flags. No roller coasters or anything, but how about an indoor/outdoor water park and aquarium? The outdoor part could have an olympic-sized swimming pool, maybe with a small beach and beach volleyball. Indoor water parks are very popular outside the U.S., even in warm climates, and this would ensure year-round activity. You could also add a Dave & Buster's or something similar, go-kart racing, bungee-rides, an indoor skydiving facility, etc.

debaliviere · PostOct 06, 2007#14482007-10-06T04:33+00:00

McGuire calls the new Bottle District team "terrific."

"I have never done a project like this, and there are a lot of naysayers out there who said I couldn't pull it off," he said. "But I think we have the best team in the area for this project."

Ummm...you still haven't pulled it off.

This whole project seems so forced to me. Why not sit on the land, use it for parking/tailgating and wait to see how all of the other major projects pan out?

matguy70 · PostOct 06, 2007#14492007-10-06T04:55+00:00

Wow - there are so many naysayers here. I would have loved to see an internet thread about the Gateway Arch Concept in 1947 online through the 1960's.

I, for one, am just happy to hear some news on the district and that it is still "in the works" and they wanted the media to release the information that the district is not "dead" as so many excused it to be here.

Let's just all sit back, relax and chill out for awhile and see what the plans will be when they are released.

timeforguinness · PostOct 06, 2007#14502007-10-06T05:10+00:00

Brewery

/sorry too many Guinness tonight

The Bottle District

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