^Ed Golterman will be pleased, but he will not rest until its completed. 
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They just had a blurb on KMOV that the Kiel Opera House is being delayed and could possibly pushed back until Spring of 2011. This would be really bad news if it occurs. More tomorrow in the Post.
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^ Very disappointing news, but not surprising. But hey, the recession is over! 
Unemployment in the double digits at least until late 2010 says Nouriel Roubini.ThreeOneFour wrote:^ Very disappointing news, but not surprising. But hey, the recession is over!
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Holy tin foil hat, Batman:
Ed Golterman November 17, 2009 3:16PM EST
Refusal of St. Louis banks to notfund Kiel Opera House are underorders from John Danforth,Walter Metcalfe, Jr, Don Lentz(Bryan Cave) and the officers ofCivic Progress.This is despicable abandonmentof the last hope for downtownSt. Louis and is totally counterto what banks and foundations and corporations have done inother cities.Suggest that the struggling andfailing business and residentsof downtown St. Louis filea class action law suit seeking$400 million from the Kiel Killers (penalties and damages) .At the same time I urge the U.S.Attorneys office to finally call in the anti trust divisionto stop this once and for all.This has nothing to do with DaveChecketts, or the state of the bond markets, or the Urban LandInstitute assessment of anything.This is the Fox killing Kiel.Period.
I agree with Ed.
We have had our priorities messed up.
30 million for City garden should have gone towards this. I said that when the sculpture garden was proposed. Or maybe 15 for this, 5 for the James Clemens Mansion, 5 for the Sun Theater, and the other 5 for the Mullanphy.
A City of such architectural resources and we spent 30 million on useless park space?
We have had our priorities messed up.
30 million for City garden should have gone towards this. I said that when the sculpture garden was proposed. Or maybe 15 for this, 5 for the James Clemens Mansion, 5 for the Sun Theater, and the other 5 for the Mullanphy.
A City of such architectural resources and we spent 30 million on useless park space?
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^ That was 30 million in private funds graciously donated by the Gateway Foundation. This isn't SimCity Doug.
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^^ Do you agree with Ed that there is a conspiracy in place by those named above orchestrated by or intended to preserve the Fox's standing?
^^^ No, CityGarden has been one of the best things that has happened to downtown STL. Everyone from the suburbs know about it... and actually ENJOY it when the come downtown.
You might be useless doug, not the park.
You might be useless doug, not the park.
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Doug rightly points out what is missing, but you're right, the park serves a purpose and is a great addition to downtown.
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zink wrote:^^^ No, CityGarden has been one of the best things that has happened to downtown STL. Everyone from the suburbs know about it... and actually ENJOY it when the come downtown.
In recent memory. How long will the honeymoon last? The first snowfall? 2 years? maybe 3? The garden is great, but after the local tourists have been and seen, it's still a park at the end of the day. Parks as JJ used to say, are useless without constant function around them. Sim City no it's not, but people can talk and suggest, why not spend a little of that on this - or conversely, lets raise more and do the job right.
so, is there truth to Goltermann's post? Is the Fox still trying to kill this deal? what a joke. I also give props to the Fox for tearing down the entire historic fabric of grand center to create a "mall/theater" in a sea of surface parking! THANKS!!
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migueltejada wrote:In recent memory. How long will the honeymoon last? The first snowfall? 2 years? maybe 3? The garden is great, but after the local tourists have been and seen, it's still a park at the end of the day. Parks as JJ used to say, are useless without constant function around them. Sim City no it's not, but people can talk and suggest, why not spend a little of that on this - or conversely, lets raise more and do the job right.
Constructive criticism is one thing. This ain't it.
Is Melbourne really that boring? I never would have guessed.
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migueltejada wrote:zink wrote:^^^ No, CityGarden has been one of the best things that has happened to downtown STL. Everyone from the suburbs know about it... and actually ENJOY it when the come downtown.
In recent memory. How long will the honeymoon last? The first snowfall? 2 years? maybe 3? The garden is great, but after the local tourists have been and seen, it's still a park at the end of the day. Parks as JJ used to say, are useless without constant function around them. Sim City no it's not, but people can talk and suggest, why not spend a little of that on this - or conversely, lets raise more and do the job right.
CityGarden Will be fine. It has activity around it. Terrace View, 2 blocks to Culinaria/OPO/Residents, Busch Stadium, Hotels, and Daytime Business traffic.
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^ And its maintenance is paid for in private funds - it will not be left to rot like Lucas Park.
30 million from the same people that brought us Twain. At least this time we have Pinocchio on loan.
If you've ever seen the images of what used to be on the block where Terrace View currently sits then you'd agree this project a failure.
The facade of one of the buildings sits inside the City Museum -- where you pay. The rest are wonderful, one quite Art Deco similar to the Thaxton.
30 million could have had a much larger impact elsewhere -- like rehabbing irreplaceable civic buildings, constructed by important architects, that stood for more than 100 years. But those that donated it happen to be still stuck in the idea that a Mall should be done. Essentially because they're some of the same people that promoted it decades ago.
We do not have the population Downtown to support City Garden nor any other passive space we decide to place upon the Mall. When it comes to these urban "parks," suburbanites will never support our City when their own suburban municipality competes against us. They have services closer while we do something, they do something. This has been going on for decades. They might visit initially when we launch something new, but that wears off after a year or two. Downtown needs 30-40k residents if we wanted to support our amount of open land. If we want to get 30-40k then we need to stop building parks, plazas, gardens, and garages -- build some new mixed use residential on the Mall. Suburbanites cannot compete with cities when it comes to the urban experience. New Urbanism fails. They have nothing touching us -- except when we decimate several blocks for parks and parking garages thereby eroding our urbanism.
St. Louis shouldn't need to offer programmed pubic plazas -- or sink in 30 million into private maintenance and constantly borrowing public art as in City Garden. Spontaneous street life attracts far more. We shouldn't try to copy Millennium Park because Downtown St. Louis isn't the Loop. We don't have the density and its ironic that we're taking actions contradictory to establishing density.
If you've ever seen the images of what used to be on the block where Terrace View currently sits then you'd agree this project a failure.
The facade of one of the buildings sits inside the City Museum -- where you pay. The rest are wonderful, one quite Art Deco similar to the Thaxton.
30 million could have had a much larger impact elsewhere -- like rehabbing irreplaceable civic buildings, constructed by important architects, that stood for more than 100 years. But those that donated it happen to be still stuck in the idea that a Mall should be done. Essentially because they're some of the same people that promoted it decades ago.
We do not have the population Downtown to support City Garden nor any other passive space we decide to place upon the Mall. When it comes to these urban "parks," suburbanites will never support our City when their own suburban municipality competes against us. They have services closer while we do something, they do something. This has been going on for decades. They might visit initially when we launch something new, but that wears off after a year or two. Downtown needs 30-40k residents if we wanted to support our amount of open land. If we want to get 30-40k then we need to stop building parks, plazas, gardens, and garages -- build some new mixed use residential on the Mall. Suburbanites cannot compete with cities when it comes to the urban experience. New Urbanism fails. They have nothing touching us -- except when we decimate several blocks for parks and parking garages thereby eroding our urbanism.
St. Louis shouldn't need to offer programmed pubic plazas -- or sink in 30 million into private maintenance and constantly borrowing public art as in City Garden. Spontaneous street life attracts far more. We shouldn't try to copy Millennium Park because Downtown St. Louis isn't the Loop. We don't have the density and its ironic that we're taking actions contradictory to establishing density.
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If you've ever seen the images of what used to be on the block where Terrace View currently sits then you'd agree this project a failure.
I enjoy this criteria and consider anything post-Cahokian civilization to be a poor replacement.
Doug wrote:
...
30 million could have had a much larger impact elsewhere -- like rehabbing irreplaceable civic buildings, constructed by important architects, that stood for more than 100 years...
You mean like the Kiel?
The Kiel is nice and all, but no will actually see INSIDE of it unless they buy tickets. A city park is open for all to enjoy.
So once again, I would rather have the City Garden than a renovated Kiel. The Kiel's shell already looks amazing. I probably will not notice much of a difference after the renovation unless I go inside.
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^ I agree, but Kiel crowds would presumably support restaurants and other retail and add to the street life of the area, making it feel a bit more safe. They would also be spending money in the city to buy tickets etc. and generate tax revenue.
Grover wrote:^ I agree, but Kiel crowds would presumably support restaurants and other retail and add to the street life of the area, making it feel a bit more safe. They would also be spending money in the city to buy tickets etc. and generate tax revenue.
Ditto. Moreover, presumably the Kiel would be lit up at night, with some kind of marquee, giving the area a much needed boost in the "life" department. At night, when there's nothing going on at Scottrade, that can be a desolate and slightly unnerving area of downtown to be in.
Ed Golterman should be put in an asylum. He is one of the most unhinged people in the city and his obsession with the Kiel is pathological. While I can respect his passion, he is a 24 carat crank and quite likely does more to stifle the progress of the Kiel by alienating and pestering possible allies than he does to help it. Not only does he wear a tinfoil hat, it has one of those little propellers attached to it.
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^
I don't quite understand why he doesn't acknowledge that there are people actually working to renovate the Kiel.
I don't quite understand why he doesn't acknowledge that there are people actually working to renovate the Kiel.
TGE-ATW wrote:Ed Golterman should be put in an asylum. He is one of the most unhinged people in the city and his obsession with the Kiel is pathological. While I can respect his passion, he is a 24 carat crank and quite likely does more to stifle the progress of the Kiel by alienating and pestering possible allies than he does to help it. Not only does he wear a tinfoil hat, it has one of those little propellers attached to it.
Does he have some sort of financial obligation to the project? It would sure seem this way. Otherwise I have no idea why someone would post the crap he does.