STLCardsBlues1989 wrote:Checketts fulfilling the promise that the Blues former owners did not keep when Scottrade was built.
I love it!
Dave Checketts deserves a collective hug from this city. Being from New York, he will probably be able to get some good acts in Keil.
While I'm glad to see lots of Broadway shows at the Fox, you have to wonder how many midsized acts have bypassed St. Louis because the place is booked and there's nothing in the 3000-4000 seat range available.
You hardly see any Concert Club shows at Scottrade any more. I guess artists just don't like that setup.
I wouldn't be surprised if they have started minor renovations already, as many times when I've walked by in the morning there have been surveyors out doing work on the grounds. Certainly they need to do quite a bit of work outside the structure to clean it up, so I can only imagine the work needed inside.
This is fantastic news - and amazing they are getting this done during this economy. Dave Checketts just moved up on my list of guys I like in this city! If only the Cardinals and Cordish could have made as strong of an effort as Checketts did.
Hopefully they'll also put some money into the Scottrade Center. A lot of the TVs are from when the building originally opened. Especially on the 300 level where (except for the Top Shelf) they are in bad shape.
Oh, this is so awesome. Imagine this baby lit up at night!
RE the Abrams bldg: I've heard on fairly good authority that the City's municipal courts will move to that building by the end of the year. Publiceye can you verify?
steve wrote:Oh, this is so awesome. Imagine this baby lit up at night!
RE the Abrams bldg: I've heard on fairly good authority that the City's municipal courts will move to that building by the end of the year. Publiceye can you verify?
I was hoping that brutalistic piece of cr*p would get town down. A hotel with street level retail would be great.
The report interviewed electricians who claim to already be working on the project. It is always a positive when the work is actually starting, instead of proposed. The report stated new seats, wiring and renovations to the stage area, would take place soon. Great news! It is such an eyesore to see when walking to events at the Scottrade Center. Between the decaying building, homeless residents and smell of urine, this project will be a welcomed addition to the area.
steve wrote:Oh, this is so awesome. Imagine this baby lit up at night!
RE the Abrams bldg: I've heard on fairly good authority that the City's municipal courts will move to that building by the end of the year. Publiceye can you verify?
I was hoping that brutalistic piece of cr*p would get town down. A hotel with street level retail would be great.
NOOOOOOOO!
This kind of mindset drives me crazy. As soon as something goes out of style, just tear it down and forget about it. We all know what that kind of thinking has done to the fabric of our city.
Aside from the fact that I happen to like the Abrams Bldg., I feel it's important that a city preserve a good cross-section of it's architectural styles. As Grover once said in a differant thread, it's all part of the city's history; it's story, if you will. Besides, as we all know, tastes come and go. Our parents destroyed more than their share of our city when it no longer met their tastes. Please, let's not repeat their mistakes.
BTW, I thought the City's Health Department was also going to occupy part of the Abrams?
steve wrote:Oh, this is so awesome. Imagine this baby lit up at night!
RE the Abrams bldg: I've heard on fairly good authority that the City's municipal courts will move to that building by the end of the year. Publiceye can you verify?
I was hoping that brutalistic piece of cr*p would get town down. A hotel with street level retail would be great.
NOOOOOOOO!
This kind of mindset drives me crazy. As soon as something goes out of style, just tear it down and forget about it. We all know what that kind of thinking has done to the fabric of our city.
Aside from the fact that I happen to like the Abrams Bldg., I feel it's important that a city preserve a good cross-section of it's architectural styles. As Grover once said in a differant thread, it's all part of the city's history; it's story, if you will. Besides, as we all know, tastes come and go. Our parents destroyed more than their share of our city when it no longer met their tastes. Please, let's not repeat their mistakes.
BTW, I thought the City's Health Department was also going to occupy part of the Abrams?
Of course, if we never tore anything down, we'd never have anything new.
steve wrote:Oh, this is so awesome. Imagine this baby lit up at night!
RE the Abrams bldg: I've heard on fairly good authority that the City's municipal courts will move to that building by the end of the year. Publiceye can you verify?
I was hoping that brutalistic piece of cr*p would get town down. A hotel with street level retail would be great.
NOOOOOOOO!
This kind of mindset drives me crazy. As soon as something goes out of style, just tear it down and forget about it. We all know what that kind of thinking has done to the fabric of our city.
Aside from the fact that I happen to like the Abrams Bldg., I feel it's important that a city preserve a good cross-section of it's architectural styles. As Grover once said in a differant thread, it's all part of the city's history; it's story, if you will. Besides, as we all know, tastes come and go. Our parents destroyed more than their share of our city when it no longer met their tastes. Please, let's not repeat their mistakes.
BTW, I thought the City's Health Department was also going to occupy part of the Abrams?
steve wrote:Oh, this is so awesome. Imagine this baby lit up at night!
RE the Abrams bldg: I've heard on fairly good authority that the City's municipal courts will move to that building by the end of the year. Publiceye can you verify?
I was hoping that brutalistic piece of cr*p would get town down. A hotel with street level retail would be great.
NOOOOOOOO!
This kind of mindset drives me crazy. As soon as something goes out of style, just tear it down and forget about it. We all know what that kind of thinking has done to the fabric of our city.
Aside from the fact that I happen to like the Abrams Bldg., I feel it's important that a city preserve a good cross-section of it's architectural styles. As Grover once said in a differant thread, it's all part of the city's history; it's story, if you will. Besides, as we all know, tastes come and go. Our parents destroyed more than their share of our city when it no longer met their tastes. Please, let's not repeat their mistakes.
BTW, I thought the City's Health Department was also going to occupy part of the Abrams?
Maybe a good remodel would be helpful. The current setup with the first floor setback and raised plaza is architecturally stupid and really shuts the building off from the street. It's extremely dark and uninviting.
Besides, are we going to get so extreme about preservation that we'll get to the point of never tearing anything down? There's good brutalism worth saving and there's bad brutalism worth getting rid of. The Abrams building is bad brutalism.
Why not save the St. Louis Center skybridge while we're at it?
The Abrams Building is crap and has been for decades. It's a self-loathing shell that wouldn't even have been built in Mexico City for free in the late 1960s (have lived in Mexico, I know their fascination with this style).
As a facility, it is outdated for its intended purposes as an office building. Not by fashion, but by functionality with the age of digital communications.
I say that we leave the shell, gut the inside, and turn it into parking for the Kiel, which is the intended purpose for the building. This does a few things that should be appreciated:
1. Keeps the Abrams building intact.
2. Fulfills the needs of parking for the Kiel adjacent.
3. Prevents constructing a new facility to serve as a garage.
4. Increases investment value in the proximate area with the increased parking.
Remember, one of the original plans was to rehab the Kiel, then the old Municipal Courts building, and then build a high rise on the parking lot directly south of the Courts (adjacent to City Hall parking). If the Abrams isn't used for parking, then they'd just build a lot here, possibly negating the timely redevelopment of the old Municipal Courts building as well as the potential of the proposed new high rise construction.
As well, remember the Abrams will stay as a repurposed structure, otherwise Larry Rice would make a jump for it. Again.
steve wrote:Oh, this is so awesome. Imagine this baby lit up at night!
RE the Abrams bldg: I've heard on fairly good authority that the City's municipal courts will move to that building by the end of the year. Publiceye can you verify?
I was hoping that brutalistic piece of cr*p would get town down. A hotel with street level retail would be great.
For whatever it's worth, this is not a Brutalist building. When this building was built, Butalism didn't exist as a style and wouldn't for almost two decades. Other than material choice, it exhibits very few Brutalist qualities.
Rather, it's most definitely a Neo-Classical building with some Beaux Arts and Art Deco detailing.
^ UP - they're talking about the Abrams Building, not Kiel. Still, it's not really a Brutalist building although it does have elements (see good example of Brutalist below)
^ I would argue that the Abrams building is pre-Brutalist as the plaque by the front lists the construction date as 1954; and that certainly within the date range of the era. The first floor setback, the raised plaza and the upper level concrete are the main keys.
Whatever it is, when you combine it with the post office addition it really chokes off the area.
Gone Corporate wrote:Remember, one of the original plans was to rehab the Kiel, then the old Civil Courts building, and then build a high rise on the parking lot directly south of the Courts (adjacent to City Hall parking). If the Abrams isn't used for parking, then they'd just build a lot here, possibly negating the timely redevelopment of the old Civil Courts building as well as the potential of the proposed new high rise construction.
Are you thinking of the municipal courts building? From what I've heard, that one could be converted to office space in the near (or somewhat near) future. If the Abrams is converted to parking, per Breckinridge's original plan, it would serve not only the Kiel, but the renovated municipal courts building as well.
Gone Corporate wrote:Remember, one of the original plans was to rehab the Kiel, then the old Civil Courts building, and then build a high rise on the parking lot directly south of the Courts (adjacent to City Hall parking). If the Abrams isn't used for parking, then they'd just build a lot here, possibly negating the timely redevelopment of the old Civil Courts building as well as the potential of the proposed new high rise construction.
Are you thinking of the municipal courts building? From what I've heard, that one could be converted to office space in the near (or somewhat near) future. If the Abrams is converted to parking, per Breckinridge's original plan, it would serve not only the Kiel, but the renovated municipal courts building as well.
Yes. Thanks for the correction; I always misname that building.
To me, it only makes sense that Checketts would follow in the path of Breckenridge's master plans for the Kiel for best redevelopment of the area. Should Kiel be reestablished, then I see the Municipal Courts building being primed for constructive reuse and with a critical enough mass to support it as a new venture, whether tied-in or independent.
Grover wrote:^ UP - they're talking about the Abrams Building, not Kiel. Still, it's not really a Brutalist building although it does have elements (see good example of Brutalist below)quote]
Oh snap! My bad guys. Don't let my college degree fool you, I never learned how to read.
By the way, I'd be fine with the Abrams becoming a parking garage IF they would put retail bays on the front. The raised patio would be perfect for dining before going to the Kiel!!!
The Kiel Center/Savvis/Scottrade/whatever already has a parking garage! No more parking downtown! Seriously, we can work out an appropriate parking strategy that doesn't involve a new garage for every development. Retail on the bottom floor is not enough; a garage is an urban lifesucker with a remarkable lifespan of its own.
Matt Drops The H wrote:The Kiel Center/Savvis/Scottrade/whatever already has a parking garage! No more parking downtown! Seriously, we can work out an appropriate parking strategy that doesn't involve a new garage for every development. Retail on the bottom floor is not enough; a garage is an urban lifesucker with a remarkable lifespan of its own.
I wish I could agree with you, but until we get an expanded public transit system that the citizens of our fine region will support/use/fund, I don't think that's particularly practical. I will it wasn't so. Until then, we'll need to find that happy medium.
Matt Drops The H wrote:The Kiel Center/Savvis/Scottrade/whatever already has a parking garage! No more parking downtown! Seriously, we can work out an appropriate parking strategy that doesn't involve a new garage for every development. Retail on the bottom floor is not enough; a garage is an urban lifesucker with a remarkable lifespan of its own.
The plan is to have both the Kiel and Scottrade operating simultaneously.
This means capacity.
That means drivers.
Drivers need places to park.
Not enough parking = fail.
If the Scottrade lot is filled with Blues games or concerts, it'll be that much more difficult to lure Broadway shows on Friday nights. Not that sports fans and theater fans won't get along in close proximity, but they'll fight each other if there's only enough parking for one group of them. If we're so close to a deal being done, let's not get upset about the essential elements to closing.
Remember, not enough parking before for both is exactly why Kiel hasn't been redeveloped beforehand.
Gut the Abrams. Open bays on the 15th Street side for cars. Yes, have the patio open to host events & create/spur life of its own, but the rest of that sucker needs to be filled with Buicks to get this deal done.
That, or put garages under the Gateway Mall right across from it. What's more feasible?
Oh snap! My bad guys. Don't let my college degree fool you, I never learned how to read. 
