urbanSTL

Let me just point out that this is not April Fool's Day:



The Business Journal is reporting that Dave Checketts is working with McEagle Development (McKee!) to develop a feasibility plan to renovate the Kiel.



If a financial package is in place in mid-2008, construction would take an additional 12-18 months.

who was in charge of Mercantile Bank when that happened?

A member of Civic Progress. See also: Who were the members of Kiel Partners, the group that promised to reopen the Opera House as part of the package from which they received huge public subsidy to rebuild the Kiel Center?

JMedwick wrote:

JCity wrote:no, the Fox is still better than the Ambassador. Man, the loss of the Ambassador has to be at the TOP of my list of St. Louis' dumbest mistakes ever. who was in charge of Mercantile Bank when that happened? I think a lawn job or tarring is in order.

Eh. What makes the Fox so much better? The fact is located on the St. Louis arts island known as Grand Center, surrounded by a sea of parking, crumbling buildings, an few residents or businesses? I feel confidant saying that both downtown St. Louis and the regional theater scene would be better off if the region's major Broadway style theater were located in the heart of downtown, a hub of activity, rather than the desolate Grand Center.

If Grand (midtown) is considered desolate, we have much bigger problems than the theatre scene in the first place. The Fox is MAYBE a 3 minute drive down Olive from Downtown. Not exactly the edge of civilization in the metro area. Also, it is MAYBE a 3 minute drive down Lindel from the CWE. I hear your point about the immediate surroundings, but it's hardly disconnected from the "city".

DeBaliviere wrote:Let me just point out that this is not April Fool's Day:



The Business Journal is reporting that Dave Checketts is working with McEagle Development (McKee!) to develop a feasibility plan to renovate the Kiel.



If a financial package is in place in mid-2008, construction would take an additional 12-18 months.

Sounds like McKee "could be" working on building "good will" in order to help with his northside demolision derby.

JMedwick wrote:Downtown has been and continues to be a better location for maximizing the potential boon a major Broadway theater can be to the revitalization of an area than Midtown.

I see what you're saying, but historically, it just doesn't wash. Midtown is the historic "theatre district" for St. Louis, dating to approximately the turn of the 20th Century.



The Fox renovation was supposed to bookend Powell Hall (built as the St. Louis Theatre in 1925) and spur lots of rehab and infill, but on the latter point, the unwillingness of the "leaders" to wean St. Louisans from their obsession with parking immediately adjacent to their destinations blocked virtually any new construction and, ironically, choked off most of the ancillary stuff like restaurants, since nobody wants to drop five bucks to park if they're only going out to eat.



SLU's historic arms-length approach to Grand Center also hasn't helped matters any.

Ok... while my dream of the opera house being used as an OPERA house for a major year round Opera Company most likely will never happen, Let us not forget that there are literally hundreds of touring broadway productions out there at any given time. Perhaps if Fox and Kiel teamed up, they could create a hype about live theatre and give people some variety for once.....If it was proven that St. Louis could support multiple venues, why not??? Chicago has about 10 venues that support touring shows, and yes I know Chicago is ten time bigger.... but my point is, a 2nd venue, in my beilief, will do more good than harm to the theatre scene in town...... But if you ask me, we need a year round Opera Company

Magnatron wrote:Ok... while my dream of the opera house being used as an OPERA house for a major year round Opera Company most likely will never happen, Let us not forget that there are literally hundreds of touring broadway productions out there at any given time. Perhaps if Fox and Kiel teamed up, they could create a hype about live theatre and give people some variety for once.....If it was proven that St. Louis could support multiple venues, why not??? Chicago has about 10 venues that support touring shows, and yes I know Chicago is ten time bigger.... but my point is, a 2nd venue, in my beilief, will do more good than harm to the theatre scene in town...... But if you ask me, we need a year round Opera Company

Precisely. Different shows appeal to different groups. They could in theory work together, each offering different shows that might appeal to different demographics. I think StL could easily support two major theaters. Three might be pushing it, but two we can handle.



Why couldn't our current opera company also use the space?

It's why one normally finds various car dealerships in a vicinity. It's why there are a variety of women's boutiques downtown. They have different niches and complement more than compete with each other.

Perhaps if Fox and Kiel teamed up

They have.

I think the bigger issue here is actually getting the public interested in large enough numbers. While these are amazing things to have, and institutions that I would utilize, I don't feel there is a large enough contingent that would be both willing to support the arts (opera and theatre) AND travel downtown/midtown.



HOWEVER, I'm in extremely high spirits about this beggining to happen in the very near future. The largest thing affecting my above point is the population of the city, and with work it is finally turning around. Once the population of the city rebounds, and more buildings begin to be required, density will increase and everything else will as well, by association. In 10 years (I know, but we on this board are still the minority, as this is the midwest) I see this happening.

newstl2020 wrote:I don't feel there is a large enough contingent that would be both willing to support the arts (opera and theatre) AND travel downtown/midtown.

Really? Why not? Remember, most people who patronize the Fox and Powell Hall and the museums live in the suburbs. And most of them consider anything east of 170 "downtown." I don't think a re-opened Kiel would struggle at all. I think it would add to the arts scene and expand its appeal.

Maybe I stated that wrong. Obviously there's no where else to go, most of these things are located in the city. What I meant was that as the city continues to grow, these places will gain a proportionally larger amount of patrons as opposed to growth in the suburbs/counties. Therefore, as the city continues its upswing in population, more theatres/opera houses will become commercially viable due to the larger number of people in a closer proximity, who are (because of this proximity), probably more likely to use these establishments.



Edit: I fully believe we can sustain both Kiel and Fox as is.

Why couldn't our current opera company also use the space?

They have looked into it. It was determined too large of a facility for too small of a company. No doubt they have the quality of some of the larger Opera Companies in the bigger cities, but the scenery budgets alone would probably triple in order to fill that size stage. Needless to say that diesnt mean they could not branch off like the Rep with the Offramp series at Grandel, and maybe do one Grand scale Opera a year...

I think the bigger issue here is actually getting the public interested in large enough numbers. While these are amazing things to have, and institutions that I would utilize, I don't feel there is a large enough contingent that would be both willing to support the arts (opera and theatre) AND travel downtown/midtown.

If anyone has been to Denver yo have probably seen the Denver Center for Performing Arts. Denver has suffered some of the same problems St. louis has in terms of population loss, however, they have an enormous advantage of having the Opera, Touring Shows, a Resident LORT theatres, and the Symphony under one enourmous roof. When I was there, there were several performances going on at the same time and the place was packed. My point is, although larger than St. Louis, Denver does not have a HUGE downtown population but the DCPA is a world class venue 2nd to only Lincoln Center in size. Slightly out of the question for St. Louis to have the Symphony, Opera, Rep, Broadway Shows, Dance St. Louis, all in one location, but it is possible for one gigantic marketing surge to promote the St. Louis Fine Arts as a whole. You might possibly even draw in crowds that match Cardinals games if everything were coordinated and scheduled right.

Denver isnt larger than STL. They are basically the same size, so why cant we do the same as Denver?

newstl2020 wrote:Maybe I stated that wrong. Obviously there's no where else to go, most of these things are located in the city. What I meant was that as the city continues to grow, these places will gain a proportionally larger amount of patrons as opposed to growth in the suburbs/counties. Therefore, as the city continues its upswing in population, more theatres/opera houses will become commercially viable due to the larger number of people in a closer proximity, who are (because of this proximity), probably more likely to use these establishments.



Edit: I fully believe we can sustain both Kiel and Fox as is.

I agree. My family (me included) went to see Wicked last night at the Fox and the place was packed as near as I could tell. We would go down to see more things if there were more shows that interested me. If the Kiel adds to the variety of shows, there will likely be more than I would want to see, and we'll go more often. I don't really care if it is in the Kiel or Fox.

Sounds like McKee "could be" working on building "good will" in order to help with his northside demolision derby.

I thought the same thing.





St. Louis can TOTALLY support both venues. I think 2.8 million people can support two theaters in the city. and yes, it's MOSTLY people from the suburbs that come in to the, to go to the fox, powell hall, etc. St. Louis is larger than Denver too.

JCity wrote:

Sounds like McKee "could be" working on building "good will" in order to help with his northside demolision derby.

I thought the same thing.

Is that why they have partnered on Ventana, the Meridian, Bee Hat Lofts, Lucas Lofts, Paul Brown, Bogen, etc? They are not really in the business to build "good will."

ChrisInDownTown wrote:

JCity wrote:

Sounds like McKee "could be" working on building "good will" in order to help with his northside demolision derby.

I thought the same thing.

Is that why they have partnered on Ventana, the Meridian, Bee Hat Lofts, Lucas Lofts, Paul Brown, Bogen, etc? They are not really in the business to build "good will."

i don't follow

Maybe they see it as an good opportunity, as opposed as just an opportunity to build good will.