urbanSTL

dweebe wrote:

MattnSTL wrote:Or any of Pyramids proposed hotels. Those may not be the right thing for a Marriot, though.

I think Marriot likes to have at least one huge downtown hotels in most big cities. Are any of Pyramids hotels slated to be big? (500+ rooms)

That's why I put the not right thing comment in. Pyramids are probably too small. More boutique style. The BPV hotel would probably be the right size.

That would be great news if Marriot decided on moving into Union Station. On a side note I spoke with a few employees the Hard rock the other day while ridding the metro to the west end , well it turns out that Pinnacle has made a pretty good offer to have the hard rock move to the landing ? If this were to occur it would mark a another huge blow to US.



MR, MAYOR !!! PLEASE DON't LET US TURN INTO ANOTHER STL-CENTER!!

I think everyone sees the writing on the wall. At least with every retail tenant gone, it could open the way for a total makeover of Union Station...and Hard Rock would be a great fit with Lumiere Place and the Landing. I have always thought their location at Union Station, under the shed, was kind of odd.



I hope Marriott doesn't manage the U.S. hotel. Maybe it is just by comparison, but most of the Marriotts I have been in lately are kinda shabby.

I would kill to see a total gutting of everything under the train shed. Ditch the mall.



Since it won't ever be a train station again anyway - Build a mix of residential on either side with a "street" down the middle, and extend it all the way out front onto where the parking is under the shed. Do it in the same architectural style as the head building on Market. Reconnect access from Clark street and figure out some good way to integrate it with the powerhouse biz park across the parking lot.



It'd never happen, but I can dream...

Just thinking about for-sale residential at Union Station...Great in theory, but would you want to buy a townhouse or condo under the train shed?



Who would pay for maintenance of the trainshed, access routes, and the common areas? More accurately, what guarantee would the homeowner have that the trainshed, common areas, and the headhouse would be well-maintained for the life of your home? What happens if the rest of the project goes into foreclosure? And how exactly would they maintain the trainshed with people living below? Would you be able to get insurance for the train shed collapsing in an earthquake and taking out your home? That would be a very complex title and the requisite set of easements, but I suppose it isn't that much different than the condo portion of the Sheraton, or any mixed-use project for that matter. You'd just have to be extremely alert when buying such a property.



I think it would be more likely that anyone turning Union Station into a primarily residential mixed-use project would build residential around the perimeter and turn the trainshed into common space, i.e. a park, pool, lake, community building/rec center, etc., with a retail/restaurant/entertainment strip along the south face of the headhouse. I think it would make a very cool park (yes, yes, I know we have too much green space, but this would be very unique - think Bryant Park under a magnificent industrial structure and surrounded by high-rises ). With high-density residential on the west and south sections of the trainshed perimeter - and if the U.S.P.S. moves its operations, then the east side as well - I think this could work quite well, especially, if, as I have said before, Chouteau Lake actually happens up to the southern edge of the Union Station property.

migueltejada wrote:




Begs the question as to why they sold their old hotel in the first place. Now they have a worse location? Odd logic.

Marriott didn't own the hotel near the stadium, it was just flagged as a Marriott. The owner made the decision to switch to Hilton. From the article it doesn't seems like they will own the hotel at Union Station either.

Reading through the threads on Union Station I thought I would share some additional insites and information from informed sources. The word is Houlihans will terminate their lease at the end of the summer. There is discussion among the powers to be to close the stores on the second floor to make place for offices by 2010. There is a new mexican restaurant that will open in March at the corner space across from Maggie's Obriens. Several months back I commented that the Hyatt will probably leave Union Station after getting settled in at the Adams Mark and seems now there is more possibility of this. Supposedly Landrys and Hardrock renewed there leases, but if the renewal was like any of the other renewals being offered the deal they got was to retire their current lease if they would sign up to stay at least until 2010 at a reduced rate starting now. The greeting card shop's lease (Inspirations) expires at the end of March and last word they were not looking at renewing. Starbucks lease expires 2010 and it is anyones guess if they will renew as this is an under performing location and with Starbucks closing underperforming stores you will have to think this location will close. Marquess Gallery has been temporarily closed since Christmas.. My guess is they cut a deal or threatened to move out if they had to suffer the winter. If you take a look at new stores that have moved in they are hand me downs from other locations and no other place to go. Case in point is the new Australian jewelry store was at Fair Heights and the mall did not renew their lease. Union Station is so desparate that when a store moves out they still leave the store on their website so they look like they have a lot of stores. The Fudgery signed a deal with Ball Park Village and plans to keep the US spot open until they are completely settled at the new location and then phase out US. The decline of Union Station is like a runaway locomotive and it is probably doomed under the present management. Can US be saved, probably but not with wishfull thinking and out dated thinking. Many malls are experiencing problems, but the ones who are coming out of the problem are thinking outside of the box and initiating the living center designs. As for the city stepping in, I think they are placing all their bets on downtown proper and if US goes by the wayside for the time being that is probably OK, because after downtown is finished, no one will even care about Union Station. Most people already discuss it like a dead relative and always talk about how it used to be. As for the influence of Plaza Square on the Union Station area. On March 10 the bankruptcy court will have to decide to accept a 25 mil bid from out of town buyers. I met some of the staff of the proposed new owners and the good news they are top notch in the property management arena.

Wow. That is really grim. Reminiscent of St. Louis Centre. What a shame. It's too bad Amtrak and Greyhound didn't stick around. Union Station in DC is a great example of how transit and mall can successfully coexist. Albeit they do have a great deal more commuter rail/amtrak/subway riders.

It's interesting to hear that the Fudgery has signed on with BPV though. I think that's the first we've heard (other than bowling hall of fame discussions and Cardinals HOF/Restaraunt) of a committed retailer. Sounds like a good fit.

Now that I think of it, BPV could/will be the nail in Union Station's coffin. It is just the "living center design" you refer to. Outdoors, somewhat integrated with the grid, hotels, offices, condos, ball games. Why would any upscale/national retailer choose a dying mall over BPV? They wouldn't.

Just for the record, there are currently 23 -25 vacancies in Union Station depending on how you divide up some of the spaces and 50 spaces occupied as of this date. If you look at the Union station ads they boast of over 85 stores, but I can't find the other 35. I did not count carts/kiosok but there are only 2 right now and one trampoline. So counting these I come up with 53. Fuzzy math or smoke and mirrors? Maybe the management is still living in the past and it is taking them a while to face reality. They obviously have fooled the people that pay and sign their check.

Speculation: I could see the Cardinals Clubhouse (kind of an anchor for US at this point) pulling stakes at Union Station when BPV is built.

^Plus, I'm quite sure the new Cardinals Hall of Fame will have a substantial giftshop. Maybe the Clubhouse will be that giftshop?

lamiaposta wrote:The Fudgery signed a deal with Ballpark Village and plans to keep the US spot open until they are completely settled at the new location and then phase out US.

[sarcasm] Translation, The Fudgery will be the last business standing inside Union Station, and it will be there for many years to come. [/sarcasm]



Seriously, what has happened to Union Station is sad, but I'm not sure about what can be done without a change in management and wholesale changes to its configuration. Malls everywhere are struggling, and most retailers willing to give downtown St. Louis a look are going to focus on Mercantile Exchange or Ballpark Village. And the city (understandably) has other priorities including the two aforementioned major developments, Phase II of Lumiere Place, etc.



Hopefully something can be worked out eventually, especially since it appears that Plaza Square may have a new lease on life, which would help that entire area of downtown in general.

ThreeOneFour wrote:[sarcasm] Translation, The Fudgery will be the last business standing inside Union Station, and it will be there for many years to come. [/sarcasm]

I remain convinced that long after the last t-shirt shop is gone and the final kiosk selling chintzy crap closes, the Fudgery will in fact be the last business in Union Station to draw any crowd.



Whatever became of the improv comedy troupe that used to perform at Union Station in the little space up in the headhouse? I used to go there on a monthly basis and found them at least reasonably funny, maybe more so because I would not be content to merely "satisfy" their 2 drink minimum.

ben1040 wrote:


Whatever became of the improv comedy troupe that used to perform at Union Station in the little space up in the headhouse? I used to go there on a monthly basis and found them at least reasonably funny, maybe more so because I would not be content to merely "satisfy" their 2 drink minimum.

I thought they moved out to Westport, but I could be way off..I was also upset when they moved out.

A lot of comedy clubs have had that spot: Comedy Sportz was there in the late 90's, and then it became City Improv. They were open from about 2000 to 2005, after that it became "The Improv", which wasn't around for long. Next it was "Suite 250", I don't think that lasted long either. It was empty for a while, then "Club Encore" opened and closed in less than a year.



I think that some of the improv troupe from City Improv went to the Westport Playhouse, some of them went to Laughs on the Landing, and some of them went to Chicago .



Its a shame that no one can seem to make that space work. Its really a neat little room.

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:

Wabash wrote:Speculation: I could see the Cardinals Clubhouse (kind of an anchor for US at this point) pulling stakes at Union Station when BPV is built.

Yeah, I could see that, but I wonder if they would put it there, given that the already have a team store at the stadium, which would be 2 blocks away.

The problem for the Cardinal Stores at Union Station who also owns the Bud Shop, when BPV is finished, unless they move to BPV no one will have any reason to visit them at Union Station or anyone else for that fact. Either these type of merchants move with the flow or they perish when the last train pulls out and they seem a lot smarter than that. I still predict that 2010 will be the demise of US, leaving only the merchants who just can't cut it in the real world and need to be someplace where they can be consistently late on their rent which is already the case with several merchants.

Is Union Station eligible for new Missouri tax credits and TIF money if they try to give it a makeover, since it is in a historic old building? When it first opened it was a unique place that everyone visited frequently. But it hasn't changed in years so there is nothing new to see. We used to go there and shop for clothes, luggage, and holiday and unique things. But the only stores still there are tourist shops.



So why haven't they jumped on the rehab bandwagon and gone after some of the free tax credits money to breath some life back into the place? Its turning into the Hotel Gift Shop. Locals need not frequent.

Gary Kreie wrote:Is Union Station eligible for new Missouri tax credits and TIF money if they try to give it a makeover, since it is in a historic old building?.

Of course, maybe not historic tax credits, but just about anything else: MODESA, TIF, NMTC, etc.. Of course a TIF would have to rely heavily on new sales tax revenue, and that would be a hard sell. It is not out of the question that the existing retail formula at Union Station could succeed with new ownership and management, but given that it hasn't worked to date and that more and more retail will be coming online in the core of downtown, I think it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to convince investors (buyers of the TIF bonds) of that. In other words, for a TIF to work, it would have to be some new type of retail that doesn't currently exist at Union Station, or, in reality, something that doesn't exist anywhere else in the city, and won't exist even after Ballpark Village and MX open.



Four possibilities that could make a TIF for Union Station redevelopment work:



1) Big box destination retail such as IKEA, REI, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shop, etc., tied in with other retail such as Best Buy, Barne's & Noble, Whole Foods, i.e. create a retail concentration that doesn't exist anywhere else in the region.



2) Themed retail, i.e. outlet mall and/or family entertainment center - think places for families to go together or places for parents to dump the kids while they go shopping or explore downtown, such as Dave & Buster's, Chuck-e-Cheese's, go-kart racing, indoor water park, mini ski-slope, and so on. Obviously, just one of these wouldn't be enough, it has to be a concentration of these that doesn't exist anywhere else within 250 miles, with several additional, probably low-end, hotels.



3) Create retail demand by using Union Station as the core of a much larger mixed-use development. Reformat Union Station as a lifestyle retail center, surrounded by high-density office and residential. This would make a TIF much easier to sell to investors. This really depends on what Ballpark Village ends up looking like, however. If it has to compete head-to-head with BV for residents and tenants, again, it would be a very hard sell. If, however, BV goes heavily office and doesn't build any additional residential besides what is already planned, then Union Station might be able to carve out a mixed-use residential niche for those that want to live downtown, be within walking distance of all of their retail needs, but like the more isolated and safer "feel" of Union Station, i.e. they don't have to walk down city streets. Empty nesters, seniors, young families, single females, etc. might be more attracted to such an environment. Throw in a charter school and I think you have an easy sell.



4) Tie a TIF for Union Station redevelopment into a larger overall incentive package for Chouteau Lake. Make Union Station the western focal point/gateway to Chouteau Lake, perhaps bringing the lake right up to the shed in some way, maybe by making a branch or Riverwalk-type canal off of Chouteau Lake. That would be more viable from both a political and fiscal standpoint.

Gary Kreie wrote:So why haven't they jumped on the rehab bandwagon and gone after some of the free tax credits money to breath some life back into the place?

It has apparently been tied up in bankruptcy, plus there are a hell of a lot of uncertainties around Ballpark Village, MX, and Chouteau Lake, all of which dramatically impact the viability of anything they might want to do at Union Station. Plus, the enormous amount of incentives given to Ballpark Village-related developments are still fresh on everyones minds - I'm not sure a large TIF is politically viable at the moment, no matter how good of an investment it would appear to be.

the existing retail formula at Union Station could succeed

It did succeed until gang activity crept in and people with money didn't come back because they felt uncomfortable. Also, charging an arm and a leg for parking when you could park for FREE at the Galleria didn't help either. It's sad, US could certainly be redeveloped into its former glory days status with the right plan. An IKEA here would be huge. Sadly, the demographics for the other retailers mentioned just isn't there..YET...