Would love nothing more but my main takeaway was that we need direct to JFK. The guy they quote as flying to Brazil several times a year, his company is 4 people.RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022The article pushes hard for a South American flight, perhaps to Sao Paolo.
I'd love to see that.
Yes! It's crazy that we don't have a flight to one of the flagship airports in the country and hubs for international travel in JFK.RuskiSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022Would love nothing more but my main takeaway was that we need direct to JFK. The guy they quote as flying to Brazil several times a year, his company is 4 people.RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022The article pushes hard for a South American flight, perhaps to Sao Paolo.
I'd love to see that.
American already flies SP out of DFW and MIA. Add JFK and you have flexibility. Also options on DL, AC, and UA.
Until there are some hard numbers, this seems pretty speculative. Just consider a few years ago when BA was considering STL, TATL from here was 260k/year. I doubt South American traffic is even a quarter of that.
My main takeaway is that Panama should make it a national priority for Panama City's Tocumen Airport (PTY) to be the hub connecting city for mid sized American cities to South America.RuskiSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022Would love nothing more but my main takeaway was that we need direct to JFK. The guy they quote as flying to Brazil several times a year, his company is 4 people.RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022The article pushes hard for a South American flight, perhaps to Sao Paolo.
I'd love to see that.
American already flies SP out of DFW and MIA. Add JFK and you have flexibility. Also options on DL, AC, and UA.
Until there are some hard numbers, this seems pretty speculative. Just consider a few years ago when BA was considering STL, TATL from here was 260k/year. I doubt South American traffic is even a quarter of that.
he got it for $900 but booked 3 months before. its still about $1000 if you book today for mid Sept.cteclipse wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022Yeah, that's an option. Very expensive though, getting back that way is nearly 16 hours. JFK opens up Delta which I have status as well as more flights on TAP.
Realistically, the problem is you have to fill the whole plane for that destination especially to a place like Sao Paulo which is pretty much the end of the line. Just not realistic for St. Louis to get a direct that far into S. America anytime soon.cteclipse wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022I'd take an overnight flight on a widebody to S. America any day over a 5 and a 6 hour flight on a 737. Going that direction is actually pretty nice, both directions are overnight and there's minimal time change unlike going to Europe.
We're planning a trip to Portugal next month and the logistics have been a PITA without a JFK connection.
STLEnginerd wrote:
Side note as i look at this is that Anchorage AK should be aiming to be the Connecting hub into Asia for American mid sized cities. A single hop on 737s through Anchorage to Tokyo or Seoul instead of having to fill a 777 or 787 makes a lot of sense. They might have a harder time doing year round though but seasonally it could work.
Idk about that but i do know last summer i had to go there for work and decided not to fly to Anchorage because it was June and they said next rental car available was Sept 2021. So i flew STL to Seattle to Juneau took a seaplane and boat to get to Skagwaymoorlander wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022STLEnginerd wrote:
Side note as i look at this is that Anchorage AK should be aiming to be the Connecting hub into Asia for American mid sized cities. A single hop on 737s through Anchorage to Tokyo or Seoul instead of having to fill a 777 or 787 makes a lot of sense. They might have a harder time doing year round though but seasonally it could work.
On the topic of Anchorage, AK, I saw something the other day about how, during COVID, ANC became the busiest airport in the world.
Because all the cargo planes stop there on the way from Asia. FedEx and UPS have monster hubs there. Plus now that Russian air space is off limits even more cargo flights use it. I guess it's better business it pivot from Anchorage than do non stops.moorlander wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022STLEnginerd wrote:
Side note as i look at this is that Anchorage AK should be aiming to be the Connecting hub into Asia for American mid sized cities. A single hop on 737s through Anchorage to Tokyo or Seoul instead of having to fill a 777 or 787 makes a lot of sense. They might have a harder time doing year round though but seasonally it could work.
On the topic of Anchorage, AK, I saw something the other day about how, during COVID, ANC became the busiest airport in the world.
During Cold War Anchorage was a massive hub. Perfectly situated for the aircraft of the time and flying over the arctic to avoid Soviet airspace. So travelling from Lodnon or Paris to Tokyo, best way was over the top and stop in Anchorage.dweebe wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022Because all the cargo planes stop there on the way from Asia. FedEx and UPS have monster hubs there. Plus now that Russian air space is off limits even more cargo flights use it. I guess it's better business it pivot from Anchorage than do non stops.moorlander wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022STLEnginerd wrote:
Side note as i look at this is that Anchorage AK should be aiming to be the Connecting hub into Asia for American mid sized cities. A single hop on 737s through Anchorage to Tokyo or Seoul instead of having to fill a 777 or 787 makes a lot of sense. They might have a harder time doing year round though but seasonally it could work.
On the topic of Anchorage, AK, I saw something the other day about how, during COVID, ANC became the busiest airport in the world.
What does Panama open up compared to more frequency through Miami (/Houston)? At some point in this thread I tried to do a route analysis. PTY didn't open up as many connections as I assumed.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022My main takeaway is that Panama should make it a national priority for Panama City's Tocumen Airport (PTY) to be the hub connecting city for mid sized American cities to South America.RuskiSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022Would love nothing more but my main takeaway was that we need direct to JFK. The guy they quote as flying to Brazil several times a year, his company is 4 people.RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022The article pushes hard for a South American flight, perhaps to Sao Paolo.
I'd love to see that.
American already flies SP out of DFW and MIA. Add JFK and you have flexibility. Also options on DL, AC, and UA.
Until there are some hard numbers, this seems pretty speculative. Just consider a few years ago when BA was considering STL, TATL from here was 260k/year. I doubt South American traffic is even a quarter of that.
The reasoning...
Directs from St. Louis to Sao Paulo seem difficult to imagine. I would expect to see a direct to Tokyo or Seoul before we get one to Sao Paolo or Buenos Aires and neither of those are even in the realm of near term possibility. St. Louis should work toward a strategically timed daily flight to an international hub airport in the Caribbean or Central America that easily connects to Buenos Aires AND Sao Paulo AND most other desirable airports in S. America. One connection is not a big deal if the frequency is there. I would personally even consider it nice to get a break from an airplane and walk around on such a long flight.
Panama City flights could reach all of southern Canada and the major cities of Brazil and Argentina with 737s of varying range configurations. They should aim to be the DFW of the hemisphere. San Juan PR might be another possibility as a connecting hub. They both only work if the airport can expand to a scale sufficient to to ensure high frequency of connections.
Side note as i look at this is that Anchorage AK should be aiming to be the Connecting hub into Asia for American mid sized cities. A single hop on 737s through Anchorage to Tokyo or Seoul instead of having to fill a 777 or 787 makes a lot of sense. They might have a harder time doing year round though but seasonally it could work.
A new airline is trying to do that. Basically use anchorage like Iceland air uses Iceland.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022My main takeaway is that Panama should make it a national priority for Panama City's Tocumen Airport (PTY) to be the hub connecting city for mid sized American cities to South America.RuskiSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022Would love nothing more but my main takeaway was that we need direct to JFK. The guy they quote as flying to Brazil several times a year, his company is 4 people.RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022The article pushes hard for a South American flight, perhaps to Sao Paolo.
I'd love to see that.
American already flies SP out of DFW and MIA. Add JFK and you have flexibility. Also options on DL, AC, and UA.
Until there are some hard numbers, this seems pretty speculative. Just consider a few years ago when BA was considering STL, TATL from here was 260k/year. I doubt South American traffic is even a quarter of that.
The reasoning...
Directs from St. Louis to Sao Paulo seem difficult to imagine. I would expect to see a direct to Tokyo or Seoul before we get one to Sao Paolo or Buenos Aires and neither of those are even in the realm of near term possibility. St. Louis should work toward a strategically timed daily flight to an international hub airport in the Caribbean or Central America that easily connects to Buenos Aires AND Sao Paulo AND most other desirable airports in S. America. One connection is not a big deal if the frequency is there. I would personally even consider it nice to get a break from an airplane and walk around on such a long flight.
Panama City flights could reach all of southern Canada and the major cities of Brazil and Argentina with 737s of varying range configurations. They should aim to be the DFW of the hemisphere. San Juan PR might be another possibility as a connecting hub. They both only work if the airport can expand to a scale sufficient to to ensure high frequency of connections.
Side note as i look at this is that Anchorage AK should be aiming to be the Connecting hub into Asia for American mid sized cities. A single hop on 737s through Anchorage to Tokyo or Seoul instead of having to fill a 777 or 787 makes a lot of sense. They might have a harder time doing year round though but seasonally it could work.
For the record i only look a 737 because they are so common and scale is about right for a lot of midsize cities to support multiple flights daily. Its the foundation of Southwest airlines success. 777 could reach all those destination in 1 shot which if you could find enough demand for the point to point service it would obviously be the way to go.RuskiSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022What does Panama open up compared to more frequency through Miami (/Houston)? At some point in this thread I tried to do a route analysis. PTY didn't open up as many connections as I assumed.
Yea, the listed range is usually longer than it actually can do. You have to subtract a certain amount incase you have to divert last minute to another airport, etc.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022For the record i only look a 737 because they are so common and scale is about right for a lot of midsize cities to support multiple flights daily. Its the foundation of Southwest airlines success. 777 could reach all those destination in 1 shot which if you could find enough demand for the point to point service it would obviously be the way to go.RuskiSTL wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022What does Panama open up compared to more frequency through Miami (/Houston)? At some point in this thread I tried to do a route analysis. PTY didn't open up as many connections as I assumed.
I am going on pure google internet data here but...
The max range for 737 MAX 7 (the absolutely furthest range 737 per google and also only 172 passengers) is 3850 nautical or miles 4430 miles
The distance from Miami to Buenos Aires as the crow flies is 4424 miles
SOOooo i guess nothing but dang thats cutting it close. Of course I assume all those numbers have margin... Sao Paulo, Santiago, and Rio are all closer, and i don't think there is anything south of Buenos Aires that would draw significant passenger counts.
Panama CiIty is just more midway, and I don't think its really as significant a hub as i would think it could position itself as. Also it seems like they cover most of S. America but probably not with the frequency expected of a hub. My point was that if the country of Panama invested properly and partnered with a few airlines i would think their geographical position is almost ideal to become a super hub.
Of course Cairo IL should be a major city on paper. It takes more than geography.
That sounds pretty unpleasant to me. The trouble with five hour flights is almost nobody gives you a decent meal on a five hour flight. And if you're not getting fed and you don't have decent seatback entertainment, man that five hour leg gets long. When I fly to Asia it's usually three legs. The first is a domestic to a hub, and that's pretty bearable. The second is the longhaul from a domestic hub to an Asian hub. Anywhere from twelveish to nearly fifteen hours, depending on the route. (Usually fourteen and change.) You typically get two meals, generally a snack, and sometimes even a third meal. And you have good seatback entertainment. It's a long flight, but there's a lot to do. The worst leg is generally the last one. (Or the first on the return trip) From the Asian hub to Saigon, because that's four or five hours and the best you get is a snack. (Unless you're way up at the front of the plane, maybe.) I'm going to have to say that flying four hours on an ERJ is preferable to five on a 737. Easily. Far and away. The bathrooms are less busy. The seats are more comfortable. I'd pay a premium to avoid flying to Asia on a 737. St. Louis to Asia isn't really your typical business market, to be fair. And in my experience a healthy percentage of fliers are working class folks going to visit family, so maybe they are more budget conscious than most. Maybe there's a market for it. I can see the sense in what you're saying, but to make it less . . . grueling . . . you'd really need to upgrade your typical narrowbody a lot. And figure out which of those five hour legs gets the meal. (Because if you're spending the lion's share of a real day in the air you're going to need to eat. Snacks all around really won't cut it. My flights St. Louis to Saigon? Usually twenty hours in the air alone. Not even counting connections. Asia is a LONG way from here. Europe? Hop a skip and a jump. You could probably do St. Louis to Europe on snacks. But not St. Louis to Asia.)STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2022Side note as i look at this is that Anchorage AK should be aiming to be the Connecting hub into Asia for American mid sized cities. A single hop on 737s through Anchorage to Tokyo or Seoul instead of having to fill a 777 or 787 makes a lot of sense. They might have a harder time doing year round though but seasonally it could work.
Agree that food is better in the terminal except if you are flying business/first and/or an Asian airline (much better food and service than Western airlines).STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Jul 21, 2022I don't have a ton of experience with international flights and none to S America or Asia, so maybe i am missing something.
From my perspective the food is better in the terminal than any flight i have ever been on. I have had seat back entertainment on 3-5 hour flights and i suspect it will get more common, plus most people have phones with entertainment options like downloaded content or games. Mostly, i am a bigger guy so 15 hours on any aircraft without a stop to stretch sounds like pure hell.
Just one perspective though.
