I think this is worth a read. It is an interview with the CEO of WOW. It talks a lot about the cities that were cut and India and how they are related. It sounds like they want to build up frequency to larger cities to meet demand from India. Because of they they had to pull out of the midwest cities. He made it sound like they would possibly come back once they get the larger cities demand met.
Mentioned they weren't losing money on the routes but they think they can make more on meeting India demand to larger cities.
One quote was "I would have loved to have continued to have served those markets. I do believe they are underserved. I do believe there are opportunities there going forward."
Sounds like Dallas and JFK are getting cut by WOW also. So its cutting season over there.
Now that I have had time to think about the BA to Charleston route.. It is also possible that they only had a plane available for 2x weekly. it is being used somewhere else for the other days so they needed to throw in a destination that thought they could make it work on. They can market SC as a leisure spot to to for vacation hence why it is only summer seasonal). If they ever start here it is going to be 4x a week most likely so if they didn't have that much slack, then it wasn't like CHS was going up against us (or the 30 other cities I would have pictured them starting before CHS. Just one of those things where it all worked out for them. I think I saw they are paying 1.5 mil. Didn't see for how many years.
It still doesn't change my mind much about things overall but it makes more sense than initially.
The issue of how the airport management is doing is a bit odd. How can the same people do well on the domestic side do just as bad on the international side? Does make me think more there is something scaring airlines away either the privatization talk, crime fears, fractured government, politics of the state, or the NAACP travel advisory or a combination of some or all at play.
Like I said up top, I don't know much about this stuff, but would these things really have much of an effect? Privatization would have to be signed off by the airlines (they way I understand it at least) before it could happen. So without any real plan in place for that yet, I'm not sure how that could be a factor at this point. St. Louis has always had high-crime and a fragmented regional structure, even when Lambert was seeing double the traffic and flights around the world. You could even make the case that Lambert's heyday, during the jet age and up until American took over might have been the worst period of time for most large American cities in terms of crime, poverty, white flight and other issues. And Missouri has pretty much always been a red state, as are Tennessee and Indiana, yet Nashville and Indy seem to be able to pull the flights. It's not like Pennsylvania is a blue bastion either and Pittsburgh's been landing a few as well.
It is odd, you'd think with all the Fortune 500s and dozens of other huge corporations here they could fill those business class seats BA has mentioned to officials. Maybe the airport just isn't putting up enough in incentives. Definitely a head scratcher.
The St. Louis regional leadership(?) needs to do some introspection and understand they can’t keep trying the same things and expecting different results. CHS is a special example but it just goes to show how collaborative leadership, a pro-growth business minded approach can make something like BA become a real possibility. Just look at the results of the recent right to work state referendum, or support for the city occupational earnings tax (which is disproportionately imposed on non-city residents) the complacent incumbents are trying to hold onto relics from the past that limit regions ability to move forward.
With only 2 weekly flights and a proportionally high incentive value, this is likely just BA trying to capture lightning in a bottle like they did with MSY while also trying to reduce some slack in their B788 utilization. This is entirely a seasonal leisure route, and is an entirely separate market from what an STL flight would constitute, so I don't think CHS getting an announcement precludes STL at all. With CHS, they can capture Myrtle Beach, Savannah, and a good chunk of the Southeast coast as well, which seems like a decent catchment area for leisure travel, particularly for Europeans and particularly when you consider the burgeoning cruise industry in the Charleston area (though I'm sure their will be some business/medical related travel).
We'll see if the route sticks or not.
In any case, I believe BA has yet to take delivery of 1 more B788 (and there'll inevitably be some equipment shifting to go along with that), so there's still hope. Let's see what the airport's route dev team can come up with over the next year before we crucify anyone.
Most people on this board seem to be focused on BA/LHR. Is there any particular reason for that, besides the fact that it is in the same alliance as AA/former TWA?
If your focus is on business travel, LH/FRA seems to be a more natural fit, given the structure of corporate relations in St Louis and its central position in Europe.
Monsanto --> Bayer based in Leverkusen, short train ride from FRA
Purina --> Nestle, based in Vevey/Geneva, FRA makes more sense as it is closer and LX is also Star Alliance
AB --> AB InBev, not sure about Sao Paulo, but FRA arguably makes more sense to get to Belgium for the same reasons as Nestle (closer and same airline group as SN)
While LHR does not seem to show any signs of slowing down this year, it is also likely that London will gradually lose importance in international business in the long-term, due to Brexit. Many financial institutions have been moving out/closing London offices, and they seem to be mostly moving to Paris and Frankfurt (see for example https://www.ft.com/content/5050179a-97b ... 46bae86e6d)
Most people on this board seem to be focused on BA/LHR. Is there any particular reason for that, besides the fact that it is in the same alliance as AA/former TWA?
If your focus is on business travel, LH/FRA seems to be a more natural fit, given the structure of corporate relations in St Louis and its central position in Europe.
I, for one, would love it if LH started STL-FRA flights and would much rather see them than BA IMO. I just don't know if I see it happening, however; LH tends to be rather conservative with their route additions, and doesn't do a whole lot of P2P flying to secondary U.S. cities. A lot of that probably has to do with their lack of suitable equipment (no 787s, and even the A321neo lacks the range to fly FRA-STL, though maybe that changes with the LR version, or even the 797?). IAG seems like a more natural fit to me, whether it be BA to LHR or EI to Dublin. I could even see Condor possibly starting STL-FRA if BA entered the market.
With all that said, of the secondary U.S. cities, STL probably does have the best shot at landing a FRA flight just because we do have a strong German business presence (and German heritage in the region).
Most people on this board seem to be focused on BA/LHR. Is there any particular reason for that, besides the fact that it is in the same alliance as AA/former TWA?
The advantage that LHR has is that it is a natural connecting point to just about anywhere in Europe without backtracking.
STL-FRA-LHR would not be as appealing as STL-LHR-FRA would be.
Looks like the airport is replacing jet bridges at A8/10/14/15 and installing a new one at C30. Last I heard the remodeled area in C is supposed to open in March, so it sounds like it is still on track for that . Curious if they already have someone in mind for C30 since I don't see them installing a jet bridge there just to do it.
Hmm. As soon as I say that LH doesn't have the equipment to do an STL-FRA flight, this article comes out. It mentions LH is looking to finalize a deal in the next few months for ~20 widebodies, and is looking at the A350 and 787. More than likely, this is just a ploy to get better pricing on more A350s, but the article makes no mention on whether this order is solely for LH or if LH Group is ordering for one of its other constituent airlines - 787s would work very well in complementing some of their fleets. I could see the 787-10 working very well for LH itself, either as part of a replacement for some of its older A330s and A340s or as a way to absolve themselves from having to exercise some or all of their options for 777-9s. If, however, the order is for LH itself and not just the group, and also includes 788s/789s, then that would move the chances of LH starting an STL route from about 0% to like 1%. It's really the only way I can see that flight happening outside of Condor.
Man I wish they would re-open that connecting hallway...
Right now with it being about where the red line is, I think it has to make it at least to the next 4 gate section (blue line) to even be considered. D is open at least a little bit coming the other way but its mainly charters and storage I think.
The airport has been in talks with Icelandair and offered the same deal that they offered WOW in hopes that they will pick up the route. They doubt they hear anything until at least the end of next month because they are focused on closing the sale first. Hopefully it works out but it is up in the air still.
The traffic study for T2 is done. They were presented with a few different options. One is paving over the grassy area just to the east of the terminal on the lower level. They can move buses into that space and free up room for cars. They also could remove the parking for (I think the customs people) in front of the Intl arrivals and add more loading there. More expensive options include adding new entrances to the parking garage. They will have a full presentation to the board during next weeks airport commission meeting.
^Well, now that I've bought the transatlantic ticket for next February I expect they'll land the thing and bring the prices down quite a lot. I'm working my end of Murphy's Law for all of us.
In seriousness, though, good luck to the airport. I almost hope they sweeten the deal a bit on the frontside and maybe add some penalties on the back should Icelandair pull a WOWser. I've been skeptical about TransAt, but that may be because TransPac prices are much lower per mile. Had no idea it was that gal-danged hard to find a decent deal from here across the baby pond on the same legacy carriers I use the other way. Just haven't done it recently enough, I guess. I will, however, miss the purple jets.
And it's good to hear them getting serious about the traffic issues. It's not getting any better on its own. Moving the shuttles would go a long way. Maybe also separate the rideshares and taxis from the civilians as well. I expect they'll figure it out. Thanks, as always, for the updates.
Southwest Airlines plans to boost service from St. Louis-Lambert International Airport with 22 additional weekly departures starting in June.
The added weekday flights, beginning June 9, include an extra Nashville flight, to four daily; two extra Boston flights, to 5 daily; an extra Cleveland flight, to 3 daily; an extra Denver flight, to 6 daily; and one more Detroit flight, to 3 daily.
With weekend frequency adjustments, that's an extra 22 departures per week compared to Southwest's Spring schedule and an extra 38 departures compared to its schedule this summer.
“The additional non-stop flights to multiple destinations means there is approximately 3,000 additional weekly seats out of STL,” Lambert's director, Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge, said in a statement. “This is significant because Southwest continues to grow its connecting passenger activity through St. Louis which gives our region even more options on where and when to fly.”
^Sounds like they're making good use of that extra jetway at E40. Here's to hoping they want another one soon. Maybe that's why the airport is finally addressing capacity issues landside at T2.
According to KC Biz Journal, a Southwest official feels that once new KCI done, it could be the "mid-continent hub" for SW. If true, what would that mean for STL? While SW seems to be growing significantly here, how does the new KCI impact us here in STL?
According to KC Biz Journal, a Southwest official feels that once new KCI done, it could be the "mid-continent hub" for SW. If true, what would that mean for STL? While SW seems to be growing significantly here, how does the new KCI impact us here in STL?
I don't think it means much for us. We already are a mid-continent hub that Southwest is investing in. KC would just be another airport that they build up over time. Midway and Dallas can only get so big, so they need other airports to move feed thru. Right now they are having to cut flights at KC because they can't really do connections. They are down 3 daily flights during the week there in the upcoming summer schedule. Once the new airport gets done then they will be able to feed more connections thru there. But 5 years from now when they finish who knows what the landscape will look like. Things can change between now and then.
According to KC Biz Journal, a Southwest official feels that once new KCI done, it could be the "mid-continent hub" for SW. If true, what would that mean for STL? While SW seems to be growing significantly here, how does the new KCI impact us here in STL?
Like jshank said, I wouldn't worry about it either. MCI is such a garbage dump of an airport right now, the only real way to go is up. I'm actually taking Amtrak across the state for the holidays this week because I'd rather not deal with that awful place. Plus Amtrak is much more fun
I think STL is in a decent position in the future too. It may not be a brand new terminal, but it's still plenty roomy, and easily expandable. It's hard to see Southwest making all these investments and adding all this service in STL and then 5 years from now they switch to a smaller airport that would require another expansion. It's not like those 39 gates planned for MCI are all for Southwest. Southwest has already moved into a quarter of the space in the old D Concourse, and that concourse still has an additional 13 gates left that could easily be put back in service. Combine that with the new baggage expansion Southwest is leading in St. Louis and I think the future is still pretty bright.
I don't think there is anything in play here with STL at all - much less in Nashville or Chicago either. SWA is very strategic about their connection flights - the O&D must almost warrant the connection through the airport as well for them. They work completely different than that of the other US airline hubs - where they filter all of their flights through for connections mostly regardless of the O&D traffic - Southwest doesn't work like that.
Here are gate totals for the 3 airports in the mid continental "hub" area (STL, MDW, BNA - all three are now SWA continental USA Hub/Focus Cities).Southwest in-use gates: CHICAGO MIDWAY: 22 Gates in use
ST. LOUIS INTERNATIONAL: 17 Gates in use
NASHVILLE INTERNATIONAL: 9 Gates in use
The STL Southwest Advantage/Growth/Expansion and Investment
There is one HUGE key advantage of STL over both Nashville and Midway is STL's Terminal 2 - for Southwest... it is their own concourse "hub" and connection traffic is ideal for them to run through T2 easily without "sharing" a terminal / baggage system / equipment etc... with any other airline. It truly is a "HUB" operation for SWA that they do not have in MDW or BNA.
They can expand at anytime with the need. When the new gates E36-40 were opened in 2017, SWA was using three of them and E40 was just put online this past 2 months. Now with SWA adding an additional 22 flights to STL next year and more international service, the airline may need more gates. The airport's director has already said "anytime" and they will build in another 4 additional gates in their hub concourse (adding D26,24,22,20 into the E dates). According to Jeff Lea, the airport spokesperson, the infrastructure is already there - done - renovations are cheap for the airport and SWA and when SWA says they need more gates - they have them at their disposal and renovations are quick. The airport/Southwest spent LESS than $700,000 to open T2 Concourse E Expansion in 2017. They new additional 4 gates (if needed) expansion will be even less than that according to the airport. My personal expertise (in the travel biz) the new four gate area will be needed in the next year or two and renovations will begin within the year. With SWA current announcement of 22 additional flights in STL by next summer, additional SWA international flight connections and any additional capacity added in the next 12 months, they will need it. STL's T2 is practically "brand new" in itself for travelers convenience and look - the terminal is just 20 years old and completely renovated as of 2015 and looks better than most airports IMO. I hate to say it - but KC's new terminal looks worse aesthetically than T2 anyday. T2 is a nice concourse/terminal IMO and feels like a "big airport" and is crazy busy too.
Video of passengers walking from E36 to E18:
SWA is also investing a huge amount in T2's baggage building expansion this year. The new project comes with a price tag of about $23 million. According to official airport documents, Southwest would take on about $16.3 million of the estimated cost, with the airport covering the rest. The proposed 10,500-square-foot expansion calls for the replacement of two existing baggage carousels and the addition of a third carousel with room for two additional. The new baggage center will also include upgrades to the conveyor belts and other equipment as well as the construction of an inbound baggage drop off facility. Construction will begin in early 2019 and be completed on fast-track for mid year.
SWA would not be spending/investing and adding in STL at these numbers for just a "few years of service in the future". These are huge investments for an airline.
Chicago Midway and Nashville (common use gates) and the New Kansas City
In Midway and Nashville - they have "shared" terminals and systems. The new MCI will be the same - and at this time SWA is willing to add 4 additional gates to KC - that would bring KC's Gates to 1, currently using 8 gates at MCI, and according to the SWA those gates will "come online" as needed over time. The new design allow for "common-use gates"
but will still have a specific "leased amount" per airline. Right now MCI has 31 gates in use/leased and will increase to 39 with the new terminal but not all will be leased to the airlines unless the airlines will increase services. With the four additional gates for SWA - the airport will still have the 4 extra gates for lease to SWA or any of the other airlines servicing KC. That is why they increased it to 39 becausee with SWA's commitment of 4 additional they would be locked in immediately with 35 gates and 35 used with no extra to grow. There is no doubt KC's new terminal will help SWA and connecting flights and more O&D flights (especially to the west and south). This is good for KC as they are stuck right now with what they have
I truly believe the airport will not open until mid/end of 2022 if they begin now (which is not going to happen). This is 4 years from now, that is a long time away in the airline industry.
Other STL Notes:
The new gates in Concourse C in STL for international flights (other than Southwest's international flights) will help the airlines move international flights through STL on all other carriers. This is truly what I think STL is waiting on for additional international travel to EU... right now the International arrivals are only through customs in T2 and with the new C gates coming ready for service in 2019 will allow STL to connect arriving International flights/airlines to their partner airlines or other connecting flights.
It seems that the place that will be the real mid-continent hub will be DEN. SWA has something like 25 gates currently and adding 16 more by 2020. Giving them 39 total for them selves on concourse C, that's not counting gates they use on A for international.
But back to STL very MCI, a net gain of 4 gates is nice as well as not having to go through TSA while switching planes. Unless the KC area gets larger than the St Louis area I don't see MCI being much larger than it is now.
I also feel that STL should be adding more than one new bag claim device and a second floor to this addition for more security/ATO hall. It's things like this that really add capacity to an airport.
I also feel that STL should be adding more than one new bag claim device and a second floor to this addition for more security/ATO hall. It's things like this that really add capacity to an airport.
As I understand it, the expansion is designed with enough room for additional carousels as they become necessary (as matguy mentioned above), and I believe it's also being built with a potential second floor in mind (as in it could support one if it were to be built).
I wouldn't worry too much - if and when WN needs new infrastructure, they'll absolutely build more of it.
Wonder if the airport's actually done any looking into turning the old gate area in D by the currently operating moving walkway into a food court type area as it becomes more and more clear that WN will need more gates sooner rather than later? It's been discussed here before, but it's probably just about time the airport gets serious about it. I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up in the meetings yet.
