Thanks for a good chuckle this morning, I have back to back business trips to Savannah and Jacksonville in the next two weeks. Go to meetings by actually going to the meetings. I guess flying is old school now.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Oct 12, 2018]
People still travel for business? I thought that was all tele-whatsit-computerized and digital these days.
FWIW Austin was in the mid 50s when they got service and now they are on a 747 in summer. So onward connections help out a lot obviously. I couldn't find any reference to a number for Nashville but I would be it wasn't all that much different from ours. I just thought everyones would be higher.RuskiSTL wrote: ↑Oct 12, 2018LHR with 44 PDEW. BNA was launched on the 787 Dreamliner with 214 seats, 5 days a week. I understand that 44 will get a big boost but 5x is more than a boost, that's steroids.
Maybe the reason BNA got the flight over STL wasn't just incentives as many have written off. Maybe BA really just doesn't see us as a viable route right now.
WOW has canceled STL-KEF flights effective 1/7/19. Not sure if this is seasonal, permanent or a filing mistake. There is no resumption date as of today.
^Yikes! I was under the impression that the routes were doing well. Did something change?
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WOW (and Icelandair) are having financial difficulties at the moment. The route was doing decently well as I understand it, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when an ULCC is in trouble.
I know WOW gave STL a 2 year commitment and STL offered some incentives.
WOW is better off now than a few months ago since they have secured millions in private investors to maintain until they can go public in about 16 months or so.
May be a break for winter. We enjoyed our flights with them now twice to Iceland and EU.
I am glad to see STL is making huge gains in domestic flights and connections.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.stltod ... d.amp.html
WOW is better off now than a few months ago since they have secured millions in private investors to maintain until they can go public in about 16 months or so.
May be a break for winter. We enjoyed our flights with them now twice to Iceland and EU.
I am glad to see STL is making huge gains in domestic flights and connections.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.stltod ... d.amp.html
The 44 number suffers from a lack of actual analysis. I go to Europe 1-2 a year for work. Final destination is usually France, Germany or Italy. Occasionally UK, so my numbers are not in that 44. If we had a non-stop to London from St. Louis (and ESPECIALLY if it was the only trans atlantic flight from here), I would book that route 100% of the time. I would much rather get over the ocean on the first flight and then connect to where I need to go over there (although connecting in Heathrow is usually a headache). In my office alone, there are a dozen people in that boat. I don't think it is too much to extrapolate that out.jshank83 wrote: ↑Oct 12, 2018FWIW Austin was in the mid 50s when they got service and now they are on a 747 in summer. So onward connections help out a lot obviously. I couldn't find any reference to a number for Nashville but I would be it wasn't all that much different from ours. I just thought everyones would be higher.RuskiSTL wrote: ↑Oct 12, 2018LHR with 44 PDEW. BNA was launched on the 787 Dreamliner with 214 seats, 5 days a week. I understand that 44 will get a big boost but 5x is more than a boost, that's steroids.
Maybe the reason BNA got the flight over STL wasn't just incentives as many have written off. Maybe BA really just doesn't see us as a viable route right now.
That said, I love London, so I would probably buffer in some vacation days on either end of those trips. For personal reasons, Geneva, Zurich or Milan would be better for personally and may allow me to pull off an Alpine ski trip finally.
I would assume WOW will be back for summer. Most of there seasonal routes ended this month and we got extended past those (even if it ends in January). I think the incentives were based on number of flights (not time of year) so they can just load up on summer flights. They already added the extra one this past summer and can just do that next summer also.
I sent an email to the PR person at the airport asking about it since I was looking to book a flight and it jumped 10x the price this past weekend, and are technically still listed for sale. He said he would check into it and get back to me, so obviously the airport wasn't aware of any change. I'll let you know what I hear.
EDIT: I assumed wrong. Pretty surprised. Makes me wonder if they will come back to any of the seasonal routes now that aren't on the schedule for next summer yet.
I sent an email to the PR person at the airport asking about it since I was looking to book a flight and it jumped 10x the price this past weekend, and are technically still listed for sale. He said he would check into it and get back to me, so obviously the airport wasn't aware of any change. I'll let you know what I hear.
EDIT: I assumed wrong. Pretty surprised. Makes me wonder if they will come back to any of the seasonal routes now that aren't on the schedule for next summer yet.
The Airport's statement:
https://www.flystl.com/newsroom/stl-new ... ng-wow-air
https://www.flystl.com/newsroom/stl-new ... ng-wow-air
St. Louis Lambert International Airport was informed by WOW air that it is discontinuing its STL to Iceland non-stop service after January 7, 2019. We’re disappointed because the response from customers across the St. Louis region was strong and we were told we were one of the airline’s top performing markets in the Midwest that were added last spring. The airline will not meet the criteria for airport incentives with its announcement to cease service in January. The Airport, the St. Louis Economic Development Partnership and others were proud of our efforts to bring WOW air to St. Louis and we will continue to explore new opportunities for non-stop international service.
Same here. I go to Europe pretty much every month and rarely through London (mostly FRA since I'm a United guy), but I would definitely book that flight all the time if it were available.jeff707 wrote: ↑Oct 15, 2018
The 44 number suffers from a lack of actual analysis. I go to Europe 1-2 a year for work. Final destination is usually France, Germany or Italy. Occasionally UK, so my numbers are not in that 44. If we had a non-stop to London from St. Louis (and ESPECIALLY if it was the only trans atlantic flight from here), I would book that route 100% of the time. I would much rather get over the ocean on the first flight and then connect to where I need to go over there (although connecting in Heathrow is usually a headache). In my office alone, there are a dozen people in that boat. I don't think it is too much to extrapolate that out.
That said, I love London, so I would probably buffer in some vacation days on either end of those trips. For personal reasons, Geneva, Zurich or Milan would be better for personally and may allow me to pull off an Alpine ski trip finally.
Found this one about the airport with a few quotes from Rhonda. Sounds like they had no clue the cut was coming.
“We had talked to them and they said, 'No, we will be loading the schedule here in the near future for the spring and summer,' said airport director Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge. "So we were caught a little bit by surprise and I think they are just growing very fast.”
https://kplr11.com/2018/10/15/airport-o ... ouncement/
And one more
"We actually were working with them last week on looking at some future promotions, so yes, it came as a big surprise," she says. "Not at all what we had expected."
The airport hadn't yet given WOW any incentives, and it's no longer eligible for them.
Service is scheduled to end January 7. WOW Airlines entered the St. Louis market in May.
Hamm-Niebruegge says a lot of people took that flight, and that could make other carriers pay attention.
"Our bookings on that flight were very, very strong," she says.
Hamm-Niebruegge says Lambert is still looking for non-stop European destinations - roughly 300 people leave St. Louis for international destinations daily.
https://kmox.radio.com/articles/interna ... n-st-louis
The response I ended up getting back from the airport after the release was "For now, it is a full pullout from the market". Sounds like it took them asking about my pricing question to find out that WOW was leaving the market. You would think the airline would have been a little more forthcoming with that info then for STL to find out this way. Guess I'll have to trade that Iceland trip for some somewhere south instead.
“We had talked to them and they said, 'No, we will be loading the schedule here in the near future for the spring and summer,' said airport director Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge. "So we were caught a little bit by surprise and I think they are just growing very fast.”
https://kplr11.com/2018/10/15/airport-o ... ouncement/
And one more
"We actually were working with them last week on looking at some future promotions, so yes, it came as a big surprise," she says. "Not at all what we had expected."
The airport hadn't yet given WOW any incentives, and it's no longer eligible for them.
Service is scheduled to end January 7. WOW Airlines entered the St. Louis market in May.
Hamm-Niebruegge says a lot of people took that flight, and that could make other carriers pay attention.
"Our bookings on that flight were very, very strong," she says.
Hamm-Niebruegge says Lambert is still looking for non-stop European destinations - roughly 300 people leave St. Louis for international destinations daily.
https://kmox.radio.com/articles/interna ... n-st-louis
The response I ended up getting back from the airport after the release was "For now, it is a full pullout from the market". Sounds like it took them asking about my pricing question to find out that WOW was leaving the market. You would think the airline would have been a little more forthcoming with that info then for STL to find out this way. Guess I'll have to trade that Iceland trip for some somewhere south instead.
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I'm planning to book a flight for a friend from Berlin shortly (as soon as I hear back from him that it's all go.) I was strongly considering WOW. Was considering them for my own purposes too, for a pleasure trip to England and points east, finances allowing. That's . . . really way too bad.
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Very disappointed by this WOW news, but really not surprised. My heart actually breaks for the Route Development team at STL today, this cannot be easy for them, as it has been a very rough couple months.
Would not be surprised if we hear something from Condor/ Aer Lingus by years end.
Would not be surprised if we hear something from Condor/ Aer Lingus by years end.
Sounds like CLE and CVG cut as well. Also that they were expecting 90% load factors. That seems crazy to me for a new route on an airline no one has heard of. 80% I could understand but 90 on average seems like a stretch.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/met ... f8b3a.html
"Unfortunately, it has to be said that St. Louis was a disappointment for WOW air this summer in terms of end results, with load factors not achieving the targets that were set for the route in the beginning, and compared to other markets in our network," the Icelandic budget airline said in a statement emailed to the Post-Dispatch.
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Seems like an impossible goal to meet especially with limited onward connections.
The question now is how this could poison the well as it were in terms of reputation of the St. Louis market. Since some of what has transpired sounds very similar to comments made by one Stan Kroneke.
Curious how they will plan on the incentive money that is all around, since at this point just go all in and use it for one since that is possibly what is needed due to perception.Get the sense there is something causing a huge negative perception issue that may only be resolved by going big on incentives. Now see if the business community jumps in more, especially after the whole MLS thing thats going on now.
I think WOW is just back peddling to make them sound better because they are financially and cashed strapped. Pulling out of many cities than just STL.
In comparison: Kansas City on Icelandair was...
Also... it's Iceland not London or Paris. This is exactly *why* (maybe) Icelandair and Wow Air are both in financial straights and maybe putting expectations too high for a route that dies after September until May again.
Like I said in previous posts - when we flew to Frankfort from STL in June - the STL to KEF flight was full - not the Wow flight from Kef to Fra. The same can be said on the way home from Kef to STL in June. Two weeks ago I flew and the STL to KEF flight was full - coming home (I asked the flight attendant) there were 63 seats available - of the 214.
That is pretty good load factor! 75 percent nonstop 4-5 days a week for an international flight.The airport also said passenger demand was high with a load factor, which is the percentage of the airplane that is full, that averaged around 75 percent — about 28,000 passengers were aboard the flights from when they began May 17 through the end of September, airport numbers show.
In comparison: Kansas City on Icelandair was...
Icelandair was flying smaller aircraft (passenger seats) and was few less flights a week. But Icelandair called that a success - at 70%When service launched May 26, by the end of July, nearly 4,000 passengers had flown on the airline. Icelandair flights have been more than 70 percent full, said Justin Meyer, deputy director of aviation, marketing and air service development for the Kansas City Aviation Department.
Also... it's Iceland not London or Paris. This is exactly *why* (maybe) Icelandair and Wow Air are both in financial straights and maybe putting expectations too high for a route that dies after September until May again.
Like I said in previous posts - when we flew to Frankfort from STL in June - the STL to KEF flight was full - not the Wow flight from Kef to Fra. The same can be said on the way home from Kef to STL in June. Two weeks ago I flew and the STL to KEF flight was full - coming home (I asked the flight attendant) there were 63 seats available - of the 214.
Decent watch/read.
KMOV talked to a airline consultant about WOW/STL.
https://www.kmov.com/news/wow-air-pulli ... a06ef.html
KMOV talked to a airline consultant about WOW/STL.
https://www.kmov.com/news/wow-air-pulli ... a06ef.html
O&D numbers for 2 Qtr 2018 are out.
Overall it was up 4%
The nonstop to Sacramento started and it jumped from 84 to 112 YOY (33% jump).
Norfolk, VA jumped Jacksonville, FL. (up 17%). It is starting to get into where Hartford was, numbers wise, when it was added.
Cincy had a 50% jump. Lower fares this year seem to be helping.
Biggest jumps by raw numbers were
San Deigo 58
Houston 53
Miami 44
Washington DC 41
Denver 33
Biggest loser by raw numbers:
LA -30
Phoenix-17
Dallas -15
NYC -11
Chicago -11
Overall it was up 4%
The nonstop to Sacramento started and it jumped from 84 to 112 YOY (33% jump).
Norfolk, VA jumped Jacksonville, FL. (up 17%). It is starting to get into where Hartford was, numbers wise, when it was added.
Cincy had a 50% jump. Lower fares this year seem to be helping.
Biggest jumps by raw numbers were
San Deigo 58
Houston 53
Miami 44
Washington DC 41
Denver 33
Biggest loser by raw numbers:
LA -30
Phoenix-17
Dallas -15
NYC -11
Chicago -11
I've been against privatization but if they could guarantee they would get some Intl routes I could change sides pretty quickly at this point. It not even that we don't have BA and Charleston does, it is that we don't have anyone. The airport has done a great job getting the domestic route tree together but its time to land something that makes more news that a flight to Sacramento and Portland.
I don't know that I'd say it's humiliating, it might sting a bit after the WOW announcement, but I think that had more to do with their unsustainable business model (and jet fuel costs being up 39%).
Having said that, this one doesn't quite pass the smell test. Unless major incentives are involved, which I imagine is the case. Charleston is a nice and growing town but it's MSA is only about 750,000 people, the entire state has zero Fortune 500 HQs, the region sees about 6-7 million visitors a year and it's airport is only expected to take in around 4 million passengers this year. Contrast that with St. Louis which is slow growing without a doubt, but has ~3 million in the MSA, 10 Fortune 500 (16 F1000) HQs, roughly 25 million visitors annually and Lambert is looking like it will eclipse the 15 million passengers mark this year.
I'm not well versed in the airline industry, but maybe because they are right along the Atlantic and are close to some pretty popular beach zones? I really don't know. Seems odd, again unless major incentives are involved. Maybe someone else can shed some light here.
Sounds like Dallas and JFK are getting cut by WOW also. So its cutting season over there.
Now that I have had time to think about the BA to Charleston route.. It is also possible that they only had a plane available for 2x weekly. it is being used somewhere else for the other days so they needed to throw in a destination that thought they could make it work on. They can market SC as a leisure spot to to for vacation hence why it is only summer seasonal). If they ever start here it is going to be 4x a week most likely so if they didn't have that much slack, then it wasn't like CHS was going up against us (or the 30 other cities I would have pictured them starting before CHS. Just one of those things where it all worked out for them. I think I saw they are paying 1.5 mil. Didn't see for how many years.
It still doesn't change my mind much about things overall but it makes more sense than initially.
Now that I have had time to think about the BA to Charleston route.. It is also possible that they only had a plane available for 2x weekly. it is being used somewhere else for the other days so they needed to throw in a destination that thought they could make it work on. They can market SC as a leisure spot to to for vacation hence why it is only summer seasonal). If they ever start here it is going to be 4x a week most likely so if they didn't have that much slack, then it wasn't like CHS was going up against us (or the 30 other cities I would have pictured them starting before CHS. Just one of those things where it all worked out for them. I think I saw they are paying 1.5 mil. Didn't see for how many years.
It still doesn't change my mind much about things overall but it makes more sense than initially.
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That makes sense in how its a function of what is available. I'm guessing too any STL incentives may have restrictions that a flight of this nature may not qualify. One thing with this market though is that demand could be prone to dropping if the result of Brexit next year causes a significant drop in the pound which would lower demand from the UK (but would increase demand to there with vacations being cheaper)jshank83 wrote: ↑Oct 18, 2018Sounds like Dallas and JFK are getting cut by WOW also. So its cutting season over there.
Now that I have had time to think about the BA to Charleston route.. It is also possible that they only had a plane available for 2x weekly. it is being used somewhere else for the other days so they needed to throw in a destination that thought they could make it work on. They can market SC as a leisure spot to to for vacation hence why it is only summer seasonal). If they ever start here it is going to be 4x a week most likely so if they didn't have that much slack, then it wasn't like CHS was going up against us (or the 30 other cities I would have pictured them starting before CHS. Just one of those things where it all worked out for them. I think I saw they are paying 1.5 mil. Didn't see for how many years.
It still doesn't change my mind much about things overall but it makes more sense than initially.
The issue of how the airport management is doing is a bit odd. How can the same people do well on the domestic side do just as bad on the international side? Does make me think more there is something scaring airlines away either the privatization talk, crime fears, fractured government, politics of the state, or the NAACP travel advisory or a combination of some or all at play. Also the incentive pool is there, so that's the other thing that doesn't add up unless theres something fishy involving incentive money.
Next airport board meeting might get rather testy. I could see possible increase in incentive money to do what Indianapolis did since there is likely more pressure to overdo it and it could very well be neccesary if there is something scaring airlines away and/or the reputation issue.
Though just watch with the luck of it all that privatization happens and Carl Ichan is somehow involved.