urbanSTL

quincunx wrote:Washington Post - Is segregation the problem in Ferguson?

ver the last few days, punditry about Ferguson, Mo., has converged on a common, well-rehearsed narrative about segregation in St. Louis that goes back to the 19th century: whites will do whatever it takes to prevent blacks from moving into their neighborhoods, including redlining, restrictive covenants, large-lot zoning, intimidation and violence. When these ultimately fail, whites build new interstates and move en masse to the next ring of undeveloped farmland, leaving behind destitute neighborhoods with no investment or opportunity.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/mon ... -ferguson/

I was surprisingly impressed with that article. When I saw the source, I expected another hit job on St. Louis. To my surprise, it talked a great deal about the integration of Ferguson and North County.

I don't want to pretend that there's no racial discord in North County, that it's some model of shiny happy people living side-by-side with no issues, especially when racial profiling and the lack of diversity at the municipal government level are disturbing signs by anyone's standard. However, my view of places like Ferguson and Florissant is the diversity of the communities is really their strength. I think the aforementioned issues have got to be addressed, but if they are, these communities should be better for it in my opinion. Before this incident, it seemed to me like the exodus to St. Charles County really started to slow down, and those who stuck around were proud of their communities just as they were. I only hope this incident doesn't spark another wave of people moving across the Missouri River, especially since it seems like Ferguson and communities to the north and west are relatively stable compared to other North County communities.

arch city wrote: Ferguson isn't stable. It burned. Economically, it has been damaged because of piss-poor, status-quo, heads in the sand leadership.

Would you say that's also true for Downtown Ferguson? Seems pretty stable to me, although I'm sure the last two weeks have taken a toll in one way or another.

Further, there are a whole lot of stable communities in NoCo. Florissant, Dellwood, Pasadena Hills, Black Jack, Bellefountaine Neighbors, Jennings etc. Just because they are majority or significantly black, doesn't mean they aren't relatively stable. Hell, didn't St. George in SoCo just fold back (disincorporate) into the county? What city in NoCo has done that recently?

And do you know what I would say about those that want to leave? "BYE". Leave.

I agree, those are stable areas, but how has the erosion of retail in that area affected the tax base in those communities? At least Jennings has Plaza on the Boulevard where the Northland Famous-Barr once stood. I didn't mean to exclude any communities, the truth is I just know less about them save for the businesses that left over the years. Your NoCo (many majority black suburbs) to SoCo (majority white suburbs) is valid in my opinion. For example, Crestwood is a majority-white community, and it lost a LOT of its tax base in just the last ten years. The only advantage Crestwood has is that much of the retail that left isn't really that far away, as it's ten minutes to South County Center, West County Center, and Gravois Bluffs. That was really the shedding of excess retail capacity, but I know the loss of tax revenue really hurt that community, though. That shift in retail dollars was also due to the abuse of TIF, though I suppose that could also be said for the St. Louis Mills area and the effect it had on St. Ann retail, and I guess that's another discussion for another topic.

I agree, running accomplishes nothing, and in an era in which sustainability matters, it may only hurt our area more.

I heard on the news yesterday that Detroits Wayne County is the most segregated in the country but that doesn't take away the fact that St.Louis isn't too far behind we definitely need to mix things up here a great deal. Its always so lovely to see people of different ethnics walking around in the city ...

arch city wrote: Running doesn't accomplish anything.

I don't know, I think running can be pretty successful for many people who are doing the running. That's why it keeps happening. People don't make decisions based on what's good for society.

MarkHaversham wrote:

arch city wrote: Running doesn't accomplish anything.

I don't know, I think running can be pretty successful for many people who are doing the running. That's why it keeps happening. People don't make decisions based on what's good for society.

That's a tough call. As a whole, it does no good because the cycle repeats itself. I'd argue we're already seeing the effect of disinvestment in places like St. Charles and St. Peters as communities to the north and west are booming.

As an individual, however, it depends. Where one lives is such a personal choice. I may leave the city in the next year or two, but for me it is a matter of finding a larger home that meets my family's needs in an area with a stable Catholic parish and school. I'll miss the simple joys of city life like walking to Carondelet Park and being close to several good restaurants, but I'll have gains in my quality of life if my family and I have a home with just a bit more space and a neighborhood with less crime. If I can find a place that meets my criteria in the city, that's great, but I won't limit myself either.

I hate to see established communities suffer as people choose new places in which to live, but I understand how personal the choice can be for families as well. In the case of North County, I just hope people don't have a knee-jerk reaction based on recent events, because I believe there are several communities there that still have a nice quality of life.

I think part of the solution is in the economics of sprawl. If people moving to outer suburbs paid a greater share of the costs involved, rather than being somewhat subsidized as they are now, they might be more reluctant to move. Some people will still feel it's worthwhile, of course. When individual incentives aren't aligned with the community, that's when problems occur.

Good article in NYT on how the lack of coordinated leadership on both governmental and protester sides helped fuel the chaos.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/21/us/ch ... -news&_r=0

Throw in social media and the whole thing has been rather surreal. Anyway, I do believe that things would have been much more calm if the Ferguson Chief had not released the prejudicial market video in such a manner that appeared designed to inflame passions. But having a relative lack of mature protest leaders at night was also a failing.

roger wyoming II wrote:I see as soon as they get a real dose of Saint Louis summer the National Guard and National Media both slip out of town.

Good riddance to both.

http://ryanschuessler.com/2014/08/21/i- ... -ferguson/

dbinsouthcity wrote:

Anyone really look at why most that are pulled over in Ferguson are black? I would bet that of the 30% that are white in Ferguson, 90% are over the age of 60 and do not drive or drive like 3000 miles a year.

This is an AWESOME point that I have brought up so many times, since the Ferguson uprising started. The MSNBC's of the world want to cherry-pick the stats, yet do not delve deeper into them. How much of the white population is older, drives less and stays home after a certain time. How many qualified African American applicants has the Ferguson PD turned down compared to whites. Those media outlets that have slammed FPD, need to do some digging before totally slamming them. Do they have issues, yes, but let's be realistic. Ferguson is a stepping stone job to most cops. I know many that use the lower paying muni's to get experience, then move to STL County, City , St. Charles Co. or burbs like Clayton or Ladue.
Good AA cops are in demand. I'm sure the higher paying employers swoop them up fast.
I think Ferguson has work to do, but by no means is the City and it's administrators, getting a fair shake. Let's not forget, a % of the AA community in Ferguson is transient in nature, due to the fact that they are moving in to government assisted housing. These are facts that the media does not, for the most part, want to recognize.

The 'St. Louis in the news' point is that SO many media outlets have been way to quick to judge or slam Ferguson, without knowing the facts, stats and history of the town. Just as many have charged, convicted and hung the officer for murder, before he receives his due process. I don't know what happened and nobody does, at this point. That is my only point on that.

Lots of unfair judgments being made in the media over this entire incident. Some of the criticism is warranted, but a lot of it is not.

dbinsouthcity wrote:Anyone really look at why most that are pulled over in Ferguson are black? I would bet that of the 30% that are white in Ferguson, 90% are over the age of 60 and do not drive or drive like 3000 miles a year.

Ferguson has many through streets. The main drag is W. Florissant. Just because Ferguson is 67% African-American, it doesn't mean all of those African-Americans stops are people from Ferguson. Same goes for the white stops.

^ I agree Arch, St. Louis is going to pay for the handling of this tragedy and not just Ferguson. Something that many people are not talking about RIGHT NOW is the millions of dollars in lawsuits that are going to be slammed on Ferguson, St. Louis County, and the state of Missouri. This whole area looks like a backwoods, cesspool, chuck full of racist, and impoverished blacks...not a good look if your trying to compete in the 21st century.

Not to mention, if this cop doesn't get charged and/or convicted this riot will likely spread. St. Louis is a ticking time bomb and its not going to be pretty. Unfortunately, most white suburbanites and even many city hipsters fail to fathom this. All we can do is pray for this city, because the meager economic gains we have made in the past few years could easily be imploded with a LA style riot.

Interesting points. It looks like Ferguson is going to have to pay more if it wants to attract good young Black officers and establish a diversified police force.

goat314 wrote: Not to mention, if this cop doesn't get charged and/or convicted this riot will likely spread. St. Louis is a ticking time bomb and its not going to be pretty. Unfortunately, most white suburbanites and even many city hipsters fail to fathom this. All we can do is pray for this city, because the meager economic gains we have made in the past few years could easily be imploded with a LA style riot.

Agreed. Now that the unrest in Ferguson has essentially ended, I hope officials and community leaders are preparing for the worst in case (I suspect it's more like when) the grand jury doesn't return an indictment, or the trial jury doesn't return a conviction. Given that one of the major rallying cries has been "No Justice No Peace", and pretty much the only concrete demand of the protestors is the arrest/trial/conviction of D. Wilson, I could see the situation becoming very bad very fast when it doesn't work out that way.

^ I think if Brown was guilty of any of the above then the Ferguson police department would have already released the evidence. They had no problem releasing the alleged "strong arm" robbery in an attempt to taint the jury, while admitting that Wilson knew nothing about the incident. So why would they take the community through all of this turmoil and embarrassment if this was a "justified" homicide? Its very apparent that they are hiding something and this is a black eye to the whole St. Louis area.