Quick addendum: I can find all of one article about this supposed FedEx snub, and it's from an analysis about two years ago of the China hub project. And it doesn't even mention FedEx -- it refers to the air freight boom of the '80s and TWA's dominance at Lambert, but merely said that "carriers" ended up looking elsewhere. Gotta try a bigger database (more than just P-D) later this week.
If you can let me know what browser you're using and how you reproduce this exactly, I can take a look at it. I have never seen any jumping down, moving in opposite directions, etc.moorlander wrote:YESbonwich wrote: PS: Is anyone else having any problems with data entry in the reply window? Mine keeps jumping up and down, and it won't let me select text, frequently going in the opposite direction I'm trying to move the cursor.
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innov8ion wrote:If you can let me know what browser you're using and how you reproduce this exactly, I can take a look at it. I have never seen any jumping down, moving in opposite directions, etc.moorlander wrote:YESbonwich wrote: PS: Is anyone else having any problems with data entry in the reply window? Mine keeps jumping up and down, and it won't let me select text, frequently going in the opposite direction I'm trying to move the cursor.
ie on my work pc
Cue Moe voice:Alex Ihnen wrote:^ Bonwich - still on IE5 at the P-D?
"Ahhh, a smart guy, huh?"
IE8.0.6001.18702
My best reproduction: Reply to a post (especially a fairly long one). Once you scroll to the bottom of the box (or the text, I'm not sure), the whole content of the box jumps up and down and the cursor frequently disappears below the line. If you try to select, it either goes at breakneck speed or it actually moves in the opposite direction you're trying to move.
It only does this for replies, not for new posts.
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Nick Burns slam!!Alex Ihnen wrote:^ Bonwich - still on IE5 at the P-D?
That's very impressive. I've been a pilot for over 15 years: Air Force, Airlines, Private jets. So?bonwich wrote:A variety of random points:
- I could give you my former CEO's phone number, but he's having surgery in the morning. In any event, he'll corroborate that we talked frequently about TWA, especially in the context that he's a pilot.
Complete bogus. Denver is a smaller metro area than St. Louis but its hub is now busier than LAX, a metro of 17 million.bonwich wrote:- One other element that hasn't been mentioned about the whole TWA/airport/"world-class city" issue is that it's not a supply-side issue. You don't build/expand an airport hoping the business will come to you; you do so because you have the business to support it.
Red Herrings. No direct correlation to issue.bonwich wrote:The invisible elephant in the room was, and will continue to be, the region's anemic population and job growth. The conventional wisdom around here (and in many major cities, but we seem to make the wrong decisions almost always) is that you build it and they'll come. Build a stadium, pay out the nose for a football team, voila, we'll be a world-class city again. Build an overcapacity of concentrated retail downtown, voila, we'll be a world-class city again. Build a $1.1B/$2B runway (on top of a completely unused $500M airport about 40 miles away), and everyone will fall all over each other rushing to do business here.
bonwich wrote:We could fake it during spoke-and-hub because enough people from outside the region were passing through the airport to keep passenger counts viable. As spoke-and-hub broke down, that had as much to do with the precipitous drop in local flights as did the consolidation in the industry and our location on the bad side of it.
Nonsense. Spoke and hub never broke down. See Denver or Charlotte. St. Louis' O&D traffic is very strong. Better than Cincy and Memphis combined.
More mumbo jumbo. The new runway cost $ 1.1 billion. Not $ 2 billion.bonwich wrote:- I wouldn't tell my family that the car cost $24,000 (what kind of terms did you get on your last car, anyway?), but I damn sure would tell my wife that we had to budget $650 a month for three years to make the payments. You also may have noticed that mortgage companies tout the amount you'll save if you convert a 30-year mortgage to a 15. There's also the whole current debate about city, state and federal debt. Somebody is going to end up paying out about $2B for that grossly underused runway, and the payments on the debt are going to be opportunity cost for not financing something else.
Joe, I give you one star as far as your knowledge of this subject is concerned. In your system that means good.
Could agree and disagree with each of Bonwich and Counts points. I would state that LAX has several competing airports for domestic traffic in the LA metro area vs Denver truly only have one airport. Actually used Jetblue to go in and out of Long Beach myself lately. So not a very good comparison as LAX is more like JFK in being hub to the regions international flights with smaller airports filling in domestic service. Denver is a long ways from that.
In the same breadth, not only is hub and spoke is alive and well it became stronger with recent consolidations, my recent trips as of late will include a walk about through Atltanta (Delta), Houston (Continental soon to be United) and Dallas (American) as work takes me most of the time to the Southest. Don't forget that Southwest is looking more like a collection of minihubs from MDW, to BWI, to Orlando to Love Field to STL to Denver and is swallowing Airtrans Atlanta hub.
In the same breadth, not only is hub and spoke is alive and well it became stronger with recent consolidations, my recent trips as of late will include a walk about through Atltanta (Delta), Houston (Continental soon to be United) and Dallas (American) as work takes me most of the time to the Southest. Don't forget that Southwest is looking more like a collection of minihubs from MDW, to BWI, to Orlando to Love Field to STL to Denver and is swallowing Airtrans Atlanta hub.
My question, Did anyone read the new PD article on the trade hub tax credit proposed? The comments quoted from Fleming at RCGA caught my attention. If I understand correctly or if they stated him correctly, it sounds like a china air cargo flight will be landing in the near future.
As far as tax credits, personnally, I would compromise on Historic tax credits to get the hub in a sound position going forward.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... d150c.html
Neglected sites seen as trade catalysts
Richard C.D. Fleming, president of the RCGA, was away on business but sent a letter calling the air cargo hub "The Big Idea" that could transform the region.
Fleming said he was encouraged by the recent decision by the freight affiliate of China Eastern to send several cargo flights to Lambert each week, but that's not enough. Missouri must take "our state and region back to our roots," using geographic advantage and multiple modes of transportation to fulfill its potential as a center of commerce.
As far as tax credits, personnally, I would compromise on Historic tax credits to get the hub in a sound position going forward.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... d150c.html
Neglected sites seen as trade catalysts
Richard C.D. Fleming, president of the RCGA, was away on business but sent a letter calling the air cargo hub "The Big Idea" that could transform the region.
Fleming said he was encouraged by the recent decision by the freight affiliate of China Eastern to send several cargo flights to Lambert each week, but that's not enough. Missouri must take "our state and region back to our roots," using geographic advantage and multiple modes of transportation to fulfill its potential as a center of commerce.
dredger wrote:Could agree and disagree with each of Bonwich and Counts points. I would state that LAX has several competing airports for domestic traffic in the LA metro area vs Denver truly only have one airport. Actually used Jetblue to go in and out of Long Beach myself lately. So not a very good comparison as LAX is more like JFK in being hub to the regions international flights with smaller airports filling in domestic service. Denver is a long ways from that.
Not at all. LAX and DEN are both handling about 60 million pax per year. ONT, BUR, SNA and LGB combined are serving about 23 million additional pax in the LA area. The DEN and LAX numbers are comparable. With the same pax numbers DEN is serving a 2.5 Million Metro Area while LAX is serving at least a 12 million Metro Area.
This trend will continue.dredger wrote:In the same breadth, not only is hub and spoke is alive and well it became stronger with recent consolidations, my recent trips as of late will include a walk about through Atltanta (Delta), Houston (Continental soon to be United) and Dallas (American) as work takes me most of the time to the Southest. Don't forget that Southwest is looking more like a collection of minihubs from MDW, to BWI, to Orlando to Love Field to STL to Denver and is swallowing Airtrans Atlanta hub.
Holy crap, quit bickering, we've got confirmed flights!
dredger wrote:
Fleming said he was encouraged by the recent decision by the freight affiliate of China Eastern to send several cargo flights to Lambert each week.
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The problem is that the leadership that screwed up 20 years ago is largely the same leadership we have today.ricke002 wrote:Heeding the past is much different than complaining about the past. We're basically in a thread concerning the second-chance of the missed FedEx opportunity. No need to complain about leadership that messed up 20 years ago. Let's applaud those who are working to get the China hub moving along.bonwich wrote: Hindsight can also be a fascinating exercise, with multiple potential outcomes. As for just "moving on," what's that they say about those who don't heed the past?
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YES!someguy wrote:Holy crap, quit bickering, we've got confirmed flights!
dredger wrote:
Fleming said he was encouraged by the recent decision by the freight affiliate of China Eastern to send several cargo flights to Lambert each week.
I bow to the obvious expertise of someone who operates a website anonymously. I can only guess that you do this because you're a VP at Stifel (one of the only other local companies, besides the only I used to help run, that's made the Forbes 200 in the past two decades) and you don't want to brag about the remarkable growth and success of your day-job employer.the count wrote:That's very impressive. I've been a pilot for over 15 years: Air Force, Airlines, Private jets. So?bonwich wrote:A variety of random points:
- I could give you my former CEO's phone number, but he's having surgery in the morning. In any event, he'll corroborate that we talked frequently about TWA, especially in the context that he's a pilot.
Complete bogus. Denver is a smaller metro area than St. Louis but its hub is now busier than LAX, a metro of 17 million.bonwich wrote:- One other element that hasn't been mentioned about the whole TWA/airport/"world-class city" issue is that it's not a supply-side issue. You don't build/expand an airport hoping the business will come to you; you do so because you have the business to support it.
Red Herrings. No direct correlation to issue.bonwich wrote:The invisible elephant in the room was, and will continue to be, the region's anemic population and job growth. The conventional wisdom around here (and in many major cities, but we seem to make the wrong decisions almost always) is that you build it and they'll come. Build a stadium, pay out the nose for a football team, voila, we'll be a world-class city again. Build an overcapacity of concentrated retail downtown, voila, we'll be a world-class city again. Build a $1.1B/$2B runway (on top of a completely unused $500M airport about 40 miles away), and everyone will fall all over each other rushing to do business here.
bonwich wrote:We could fake it during spoke-and-hub because enough people from outside the region were passing through the airport to keep passenger counts viable. As spoke-and-hub broke down, that had as much to do with the precipitous drop in local flights as did the consolidation in the industry and our location on the bad side of it.
Nonsense. Spoke and hub never broke down. See Denver or Charlotte. St. Louis' O&D traffic is very strong. Better than Cincy and Memphis combined.
More mumbo jumbo. The new runway cost $ 1.1 billion. Not $ 2 billion.bonwich wrote:- I wouldn't tell my family that the car cost $24,000 (what kind of terms did you get on your last car, anyway?), but I damn sure would tell my wife that we had to budget $650 a month for three years to make the payments. You also may have noticed that mortgage companies tout the amount you'll save if you convert a 30-year mortgage to a 15. There's also the whole current debate about city, state and federal debt. Somebody is going to end up paying out about $2B for that grossly underused runway, and the payments on the debt are going to be opportunity cost for not financing something else.
Joe, I give you one star as far as your knowledge of this subject is concerned. In your system that means good.
(You clearly don't trust my 1993 claim, but luckily the Forbes thing -- and, basically, my entire career, since that company was public -- is easily found on the web.)
I'm still not entirely sure, though, that you don't work for the RCGA, because you dismiss anything that diverges from your worldview as "red herrings" or "mumbo-jumbo." I guess that, too, is a red herring.
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^
Confirmed flights are awesome news. Will be incredibly interesting to see how the "Big Idea" manifests. My intuition tells me it will be... Big. If Missouri exports were already up 35% in 2010, my mind drools at how those figures might look a few years down the road.
There's a time and place to complain; this isn't the time nor place. Please let the discussion turn to recent goods news.someguy wrote:Holy crap, quit bickering, we've got confirmed flights!
Confirmed flights are awesome news. Will be incredibly interesting to see how the "Big Idea" manifests. My intuition tells me it will be... Big. If Missouri exports were already up 35% in 2010, my mind drools at how those figures might look a few years down the road.
That is my question at the moment, are these confirmed flights? If so, I expected some serious fanfare out of politicians or is that on the way?urbanpioneer wrote:^There's a time and place to complain; this isn't the time nor place. Please let the discussion turn to recent goods news.someguy wrote:Holy crap, quit bickering, we've got confirmed flights!
Confirmed flights are awesome news. Will be incredibly interesting to see how the "Big Idea" manifests. My intuition tells me it will be... Big. If Missouri exports were already up 35% in 2010, my mind drools at how those figures might look a few years down the road.
or at least a good article in tomorrow's Biz Journals latest edition.
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Article in Bellville News Democrat yesterday:
MidAmerica to get $2.24 million upgrade; will it help China conduit plan get off the ground?
http://www.bnd.com/2011/03/16/1631860/m ... llion.html
The St. Clair County Public Building Commission voted Tuesday to spend almost $2.24 million to enlarge the runway apron at MidAmerica St. Louis Airport in Mascoutah.
"It doubles the size," said Tim Cantwell, the airport director. "It gives us the opportunity to have four 747" air cargo planes on the ground at once, he said.
The expansion of MidAmerica's apron -- the runway ramp area where aircraft are parked, refueled and loaded and unloaded -- comes at a time when the building commission is seeking to turn the 12-year-old Mascoutah airport into a major conduit to China for perishable Midwestern goods, such as beef and grain.
The county has already started exploring the idea of making the airport into a hub for Asian carp raised in fisheries in Iowa and Illinois. At the airport, they would be loaded onto refrigerated containers aboard cargo planes bound for China.
In this connection, the commission Tuesday agreed to pay consultant Larry Taylor $10,000 per month through June to help put together a deal linking American exporters of perishable goods with Chinese buyers.
Read more: http://www.bnd.com/2011/03/16/1631860/m ... z1GtQvb7Ik
MidAmerica to get $2.24 million upgrade; will it help China conduit plan get off the ground?
http://www.bnd.com/2011/03/16/1631860/m ... llion.html
The St. Clair County Public Building Commission voted Tuesday to spend almost $2.24 million to enlarge the runway apron at MidAmerica St. Louis Airport in Mascoutah.
"It doubles the size," said Tim Cantwell, the airport director. "It gives us the opportunity to have four 747" air cargo planes on the ground at once, he said.
The expansion of MidAmerica's apron -- the runway ramp area where aircraft are parked, refueled and loaded and unloaded -- comes at a time when the building commission is seeking to turn the 12-year-old Mascoutah airport into a major conduit to China for perishable Midwestern goods, such as beef and grain.
The county has already started exploring the idea of making the airport into a hub for Asian carp raised in fisheries in Iowa and Illinois. At the airport, they would be loaded onto refrigerated containers aboard cargo planes bound for China.
In this connection, the commission Tuesday agreed to pay consultant Larry Taylor $10,000 per month through June to help put together a deal linking American exporters of perishable goods with Chinese buyers.
Read more: http://www.bnd.com/2011/03/16/1631860/m ... z1GtQvb7Ik
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Still doesn't take away from the fact that the "Big Idea" is moving forward. Even Hitler created some good while in power.the central scrutinizer wrote:The problem is that the leadership that screwed up 20 years ago is largely the same leadership we have today.ricke002 wrote:Heeding the past is much different than complaining about the past. We're basically in a thread concerning the second-chance of the missed FedEx opportunity. No need to complain about leadership that messed up 20 years ago. Let's applaud those who are working to get the China hub moving along.bonwich wrote: Hindsight can also be a fascinating exercise, with multiple potential outcomes. As for just "moving on," what's that they say about those who don't heed the past?
Did I get grumpy after reading your post? Yes. It's just so easy to stand on the sidelines and critique everyone else after the fact. I too predicted stuff in the 90's. Sometimes I was wrong, sometimes I was right. Meh.bonwich wrote:I bow to the obvious expertise of someone who operates a website anonymously. I can only guess that you do this because you're a VP at Stifel (one of the only other local companies, besides the only I used to help run, that's made the Forbes 200 in the past two decades) and you don't want to brag about the remarkable growth and success of your day-job employer.
(You clearly don't trust my 1993 claim, but luckily the Forbes thing -- and, basically, my entire career, since that company was public -- is easily found on the web.)
I'm still not entirely sure, though, that you don't work for the RCGA, because you dismiss anything that diverges from your worldview as "red herrings" or "mumbo-jumbo." I guess that, too, is a red herring.
I called some of your statements mumbo-jumbo or red herrings because they are just not supported by the facts. It has nothing to do with my world view. If you don't agree with me (and that's fine) and want to discuss then bring up facts that support otherwise but please don't doubt my motives.
No, I don't work for Stifel. I don't even have an account there (unfortunately). (I know you were being sarcastic but there it is anyway.)
I don't work for the RCGA, I am not even a member. For full disclosure: I've been somewhat involved in the China Hub Project purely on a voluntary basis and went on a trip to China last year that was organized by the RCGA. Fully paid by me. I wanted to go because A. I fully support the China Hub Project and B. I had never been to China.
Anonymous? I know several members of this forum personally. A few articles I wrote have been posted on nextSTL under my real name, Frank De Graaf. ("The Count" is a literal translation of my last name.)
I've even met several of your P-D colleagues.
In the About section of my blog countondowntown.com you will find my contact info. I admit it got buried after the redesign a few weeks ago but I put it back up on the front page. Thanks for the reminder (I mean it). Shoot me an email and I'll give you my phone number.
Joe, I enjoy reading your food reviews and I respect your long-time engagement and knowledge of this city but it seems you've become quite cynical and skeptical. We still need to get stuff done. Some will succeed, others will fail but we don't know until we actually do it. Doing nothing is not an option.
Lastly, speaking of being anonymous, why are you always hiding your face on pictures?
(I know why. I am just kidding, Joe.)
Back on topic: Great news about China Cargo Airlines coming to Lambert. This is just a first step in a very difficult process. We're not there yet. In the coming years we'll have to build the business to make this cargo hub a viable concept. It's going to take a tremendous amount of work and yes, a lot of luck.
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Is this the first time someone here has Godwinned a thread?ricke002 wrote:Still doesn't take away from the fact that the "Big Idea" is moving forward. Even Hitler created some good while in power.
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"On February 27, Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge, director of Lambert-St. Louis International Airport, flew to China to begin negotiations with China Cargo Airlines to land cargo flights from China at Lambert.
She told the audience at a St. Louis Council of Construction Consumers' presentation on transportation infrastructure that she hopes China Cargo Airlines will begin landing three flights a week at Lambert this summer and grow its schedule to 30 flights a week by 2015.
“Cargo drives development, passenger travel does not,” she said. “This will lead to significant economic development for the airport, the county, and the St. Louis region,” she said."
http://www.stlouiscnr.com/departments/a ... a_mission/
She told the audience at a St. Louis Council of Construction Consumers' presentation on transportation infrastructure that she hopes China Cargo Airlines will begin landing three flights a week at Lambert this summer and grow its schedule to 30 flights a week by 2015.
“Cargo drives development, passenger travel does not,” she said. “This will lead to significant economic development for the airport, the county, and the St. Louis region,” she said."
http://www.stlouiscnr.com/departments/a ... a_mission/
Great to hear
“St. Louis will have to build relationships with freight forwarders and third-party logistics providers, establish procedures for fast customs clearance, for quick licensing and permitting, for electronic transactions, and so on,”
Hopefully this is something we can figure out quickly since established hubs already have a huge advantage
“St. Louis will have to build relationships with freight forwarders and third-party logistics providers, establish procedures for fast customs clearance, for quick licensing and permitting, for electronic transactions, and so on,”
Hopefully this is something we can figure out quickly since established hubs already have a huge advantage
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No way in 5+ years no one has brought up the German political movement of the early 20th Century. I'm calling shenanigans.the central scrutinizer wrote:Is this the first time someone here has Godwinned a thread?ricke002 wrote:Still doesn't take away from the fact that the "Big Idea" is moving forward. Even Hitler created some good while in power.
OK, still confused a little on if the flights are confirmed. Negotiating/talking a deal and inking a deal is very two different things. Is Fleming @ RCGA getting ahead of himself? Is that why the coverage has not been big on this yet?moorlander wrote:"On February 27, Rhonda Hamm-Niebruegge, director of Lambert-St. Louis International Airport, flew to China to begin negotiations with China Cargo Airlines to land cargo flights from China at Lambert.
She told the audience at a St. Louis Council of Construction Consumers' presentation on transportation infrastructure that she hopes China Cargo Airlines will begin landing three flights a week at Lambert this summer and grow its schedule to 30 flights a week by 2015.
“Cargo drives development, passenger travel does not,” she said. “This will lead to significant economic development for the airport, the county, and the St. Louis region,” she said."
http://www.stlouiscnr.com/departments/a ... a_mission/
Article about Aerotropolis tax credits...
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 9ed87.html
This could really spur business for the cargo hub. Not everyone is a fan of tax credits, but these would be a direct correlation to new jobs. That's what St. Louis needs.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 9ed87.html
This could really spur business for the cargo hub. Not everyone is a fan of tax credits, but these would be a direct correlation to new jobs. That's what St. Louis needs.