urbanSTL

Just heard the Terrible Taveras news. So sad.

Wow. Hard to believe. Sad indeed, kid had a bright future... RIP

Was in disbelief thought it was a cruel joke in reality he's gone forever. Will be a winter of grieving for the team. Maybe his angel will guide the Cardinals to storybook championship this upcoming season!

You know, we really shouldn't be the most hated fans in baseball anymore. At kindergarten dropoff tomorrow, I guarantee at least 10 fleece-wearing white, wine drinking moms (and dads!) are going to show up stanking like chardonnay, saying how "we're so lucky to live in the bay area."

jstreibel wrote:

Cardinals lost this series for a few reasons, but the clearest one was managing, and that's really disappointing.

You hit the nail on the head. Bochy schooled Matheny and showed how you use pitchers in the playoffs. He rode his Horse, Bumgarner, all the way to a WS championship. Unlike Mike, who took out Lackey early one game and Wainwright out in game 5. He was terrible with his pitching moves. Its sad because this Cards team could have won it all this year. While I do not think this year's Cards team was great, neither were the Royals or the Giants. We had several NLCS games, there for the taking and Matheny gifted them to the Giants. He had better revisit his managing style or the Cards may not even make the playoffs next year. The NL Central and the NL in general is getting tougher every year. Now that the Cubs will likely hire Joe Maddon, expect them to compete. He was the guy that the Cards should have hired, but they went the low-budget, learn on the job direction and you get what we have. A team that could and should have won at least one WS, maybe more, but was mismanaged, leading to three straight post-season failures. Matheny's first season was the year I thought they should have won it. I think we had a better team than SF in 2012 & Boston in 2013. We were pretty evenly matched with the SF this season, but we lost 4 games to 1. To me, the manager has to take the blame. I am not an MLB expert, but anyone can see that Matheny mismanaged this team and has in the post-season (when it counts most), 3 seasons in a row. The Cards could have been the dynasty, but now the Giants are.

Cardinals have accomplished more than we could ever imagined. We aren't going to win every series heck we were just in the WS last season and the time just got too tired also Boston was red hot as well. I think Matheny will learn from his mistakes to become a great manager. The team does play for him i think he needs to do better in the playoffs though. The Giants had the edge cause the Cardinals were still missing pieces to the team and when Yadier went down it was all for the Giants to lose and they almost did. The Cubs will be next years surprise team . This Cardinals team is young and hungry and with the loss of Tavares they'll be more motivated than ever. Im very happy the Giants did win keep it in the National League.

Matheny may become a great manager, true. But we can't wait around for him to get through the learning curve and waste the talent we currently have. We have a lot of good players. By the time Matheny becomes good enough, we could have lost those good players to old age, free agency, etc.

Managing takes time to master. La Russa used to school Bochy for years when he was managing the Padres. He obviously learned.

downtown2007 wrote:Managing takes time to master. La Russa used to school Bochy for years when he was managing the Padres. He obviously learned.

This is true, but it's frustrating to see Matheny make the same managerial blunders two postseasons in a row, and then attribute it to his having "faith."

I'll respond to the last few posts:

Pat, I totally agree with your last post. The Cards had the talent to win it all. They must not waste that talent with bad managing. Am I calling for Mike's head, no, but he needs to change his philosophy and quite being so stubborn in thinking he MUST go with his set-up man in the 8th and closer in the 9th. Lackey and Waino could have won games 4 & 5 if he left them in. They were almost unhittable.

Dweebe, regarding your comment, on DB's call us the 'best fans in baseball'. I hate it. I also hate 'Cardinal Nation' and other stupid a-- self-titles.

No, we as a fanbase are not entitled to an annual trip to the WS. HOWEVER, I will say this. Matheny's last 3 teams were all good enough to win it all, especially 2012 & 2013. Those teams lost to lesser teams IMO. Matheny not only made bad pitching choices, but also made terrible roster choices. WHY put a guy on the roster if you do not plan to use him...ie... Miller 2013' & Wacha 2014'. That is one less valuable guy on the bench or coming out of the pen. These teams had the talent to win it all and I honestly believe that Mike cost the team several games in the NLCS. His pitching decisions sucked!

Regarding going to the NLCS 3 years in a row. You are right. You cannot overlook that. However, the rosters the last 3 years have been stacked, even though several players took a step back this year or got hurt. However, I will say this. Managers are far less crucial than players and their performance. Managers are like umpires. When they mess up, people talk about them. Not when they are doing well. Matheny clearly messed up and has yet to justify his moves in this year's NLCS. Come on!! Wacha in the 9th, hadn't pitched in a month....seriously!!!? After Wainwright was dealing. Obviously, Neshek was good before he gave up the game-tying bomb, but Pat never should have been in there. Matheny had to stick by his mandatory set-up man in the 8th, closer in the 9th rule. It burned him. Bochy showed us that riding your horse as long as possible, is the way to go, even on 2 days rest! Waino may have been hurting, but I couldn't tell. He was unhittable.

Nothing is a given. Going back to the playoffs is never a guarantee. That is why I am so ticked at Matheny. He had the teams to win it all 3 years in a row and has nothing to show for. It would be different if those teams were not more talented or as talented as their opponents. They were better 2 of 3 years. Again, NOTHING to show for. That is the shame of it, not that we as a fanbase are whining because we didn't get our annual trip to the WS.

^Not trying to downplay the loss of Yadi, but the Cards did get 2 of their best outings when he was out. Lackey and Wainwright pitched awesome in games 4 & 5, when Yadi was out.
I truly put a lot of the blame on Matheny's decision to pull each of them. I heard Waino on CBSsports 920 yesterday, say that he was out of gas, but he sort of left the window open, saying he would always continue to compete, if asked to. He alluded to the fact that he told Matheny he could go in the 7th, give him one more, so that is why Mike pulled him in the 8th. I still feel like Waino is protecting Mike. Who knows though!

What I want next season and my early projection- 95 wins

1. Waino 22-5
2. Lynn 16-8
3. Lackey 12-10
4. Miller 14-9
5. Wacha 15-5


Long-Marco Gonzales (back up starter)
L Specialist- Freeman/Seigrast
R- Sam Tuivailala
7th ing- Maness
set up- Carlos Martinez
Closer- Rosenthal

(with best case #)
1- Wong 300-18-65
2- Carpenter 300-10-65
3- Holiday 295-25-95
4- New Power hitting RF (Nelson Cruz?) 270-30-100
5- Adams 290-23-85
6. Peralta 265-20-70
7. Yadi 310-10-70
8. Jay 300-5-50

bench
Bourjos
Aledmys Diaz
Grichuk
Dirty Dan Descalso
Tony Cruz

I'll tell you what. Between Matheny's ineptitude, the horribly tragic loss of Oscar Tavares, the health questions that are increasingly popping up, and the extremely shrewd moves the Cubs are making, I would say the Cardinals window may close much quicker than we all thought just a year ago or so. 2015 will be a huge year, Cubs are probably not quite ready and the rest of the division (outside of Pittsburgh) is likely to be down.

I'm hoping Matheny will show great strides tactically & strategically, and especially demonstrate that he is the valuable leader he is purported to be and we can get some good health luck with guys like Waino, Yadi, Wacha, et al. Rally the boys around the memory of OT and the disappointment of the last 3 years and lets get that 12th championship!

People are putting too much expectations into the Cardinals cause they have been so successful for nearly a decade now. Also people have latched onto this team like leeches.People are simply putting too much emotion into it and thats where the fan experience can go horribly wrong and make it not inviting. The Cardinals will either continue to win or start being in the middle of the pack. Nothing is ever guarantee. I think people just need to relax and enjoy the game for what it is and what its about. You can't win the division or championship every year. Theres 30 other teams vying for the same trophy.Look at the Cubs and how many managers they've gone through and just because they hired Maddon isn't going guarantee anything. The Cardinals have manager that knows how to win he just needs to get over the hunch and win it all.

The Taveras news has made me walk back on my expectations on Matheny. Not my opinions of his strategy—he's not at all good at that, and it's cost us games, and it definitely cost us the playoff series. But he's a good man and a good leader, and that will be important in this situation. But even more general than that, I'm just not going to go to that level of frustration (a bit like you're saying Red October).

I can't exactly explain it because I don't think I'm going to care any less, but at the same time, I'm going to try to avoid the frustration with any one individual. And I'll just hope they get better. So I'm absolutely hoping Mike—despite not doing so in three years—improves as a tactician.

As for the Cubs, there's a lot of hype being put on them, and I think it's a bit much. They have a lot of very good young talent, but that's not a guarantee of anything. Some of those players won't turn into stars. Even if a bunch do, baseball is a funny sport, and they might not be a winning team. Or they might be a winning team but fall victim to the randomness of October and never win it all.

As for Joe Maddon, I think he's a good manager. He's a guy I wanted. But I don't really know that he's very good at strategy. So with that said, I'm not sure the Cubs really even upgraded at manager. They hired someone with more experience, but is Maddon better than Rick Renteria? Perhaps. But Renteria had that Cubs team playing really well those last couple of months. We'll just have to see how it works out.

I like the Cardinals present and future every bit as much and more than the Cubs.

Miller traded to Braves for Jason Heyward- I like it.

wow, that was quick, it was only rumored like days ago. I'll always wonder about OT but Heyward is still only 25, he's a pretty good fielder and a great athlete. I hope he can get his power numbers back and sign with us long term. Cardinals haven't had a black star in a long time, this is pretty significant.

Cards also got a very good 8th inning guy in Jordon Walden