The clothing store next to the Quizzno's has moved out.
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There are limits to what a community can do when the zoning doesn't limit developments to New Urban designs, they don't own the land and the owner has his mind set on what should be built.
Amazingly the present structure is a vast improvement over what was originally proposed, a single big box Kmart. I think the Office Max, PetSmart, Walgreens, Starbucks and Cold Stone are all good business for the neighborhood, but the design if far from what was envisioned by the community activists that fought the Kmart for a couple of years.
Here is their proposed design...
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Eventually the Southtown Coalition lost their court battle to stop the development and DDR was free to build as they pleased, but with Kmart's bankruptcy settled on the current design.
I think a case can be made that had they chosen the community design the development would have been very successful and a model for other development in the city.
Amazingly the present structure is a vast improvement over what was originally proposed, a single big box Kmart. I think the Office Max, PetSmart, Walgreens, Starbucks and Cold Stone are all good business for the neighborhood, but the design if far from what was envisioned by the community activists that fought the Kmart for a couple of years.
Here is their proposed design...
Eventually the Southtown Coalition lost their court battle to stop the development and DDR was free to build as they pleased, but with Kmart's bankruptcy settled on the current design.
I think a case can be made that had they chosen the community design the development would have been very successful and a model for other development in the city.
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^ I haven't seen that rendering in a long time. The more I look at it, the more I loathe Southtown Center (if it's possible to detest it more than I already do!).
I've never gotten over the loss of the graceful-looking Famous-Barr Southtown that once stood on this sight, and I like how the building pictured in the rendering had some of its architectural cues along with its massing and its position on the NE corner of Chippewa and Kingshighway.
Like you said, there's only so much community activists can do, especially when urban design standards applied throughout the city don't seem to be on anyone's radar at City Hall. It's time to revisit our city's woefully outdated Comprehensive Plan- and it's time to elect officials who realize that developments like Southtown Center are by no means an ideal fit for a densely-packed city like Saint Louis.
I've never gotten over the loss of the graceful-looking Famous-Barr Southtown that once stood on this sight, and I like how the building pictured in the rendering had some of its architectural cues along with its massing and its position on the NE corner of Chippewa and Kingshighway.
Like you said, there's only so much community activists can do, especially when urban design standards applied throughout the city don't seem to be on anyone's radar at City Hall. It's time to revisit our city's woefully outdated Comprehensive Plan- and it's time to elect officials who realize that developments like Southtown Center are by no means an ideal fit for a densely-packed city like Saint Louis.
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I haven't seen this rendering. I have to say, even from this small thumbnail, that this project looks better than the current project.
What does it say about this type of real estate development when the community activists know more about development viability, sustainability, market demand, fiscal performance, etc... than the developer? Why would the developer fight this design in favor of what was built?
Maybe there should be more recourse or remedy available to neighborhoods seeking damages for failed or severely underperforming projects? The empty storefront alone bring down the values of the surrounding properties.
Maybe there should be more recourse or remedy available to neighborhoods seeking damages for failed or severely underperforming projects? The empty storefront alone bring down the values of the surrounding properties.
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What a way to encourage development in the city, start suing the developers! Instead get rid of so much aldermanic control and put up front design approval in the hands of professional planners.
In my mind (twisted that it is), there's a wide variety within the developer species. A good many of them through the years in St. Louis (and other cities) have jail time on their resume.
Maybe within remedies could be a better process with improved checks and balances, performance measures, timeframes, etc...? Also, when public funds and subsidies are used, how about longer term monitoring to document what works and what doesn't.
There is really no memory in a lot of development projects. It literally takes a forum like this to allow space to recall and remember. It's necessary for learning. The process used to build St. Louis Marketplace is still fresh in my mind as Southtown Center is to some here.
Maybe within remedies could be a better process with improved checks and balances, performance measures, timeframes, etc...? Also, when public funds and subsidies are used, how about longer term monitoring to document what works and what doesn't.
There is really no memory in a lot of development projects. It literally takes a forum like this to allow space to recall and remember. It's necessary for learning. The process used to build St. Louis Marketplace is still fresh in my mind as Southtown Center is to some here.
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Southtown Centre failing to fulfill promise
Jim Merkel
Of the Suburban Journals
South City Journal
09/27/2006
When the Southtown Centre opened in June 2004, an officer of the development company said the center was 70 percent leased and would be fully occupied by early 2005.
More than two years later, the shopping center at South Kingshighway Boulevard and Chippewa Street is largely empty.
Fourteen storefronts are empty and there are only nine businesses open in the shopping center that was built on the former site of the Southtown Famous-Barr. One early tenant, Fashion Guys, has left.
Alderman Stephen Gregali, D-14th Ward, who represents the area of the shopping center, said he has been working with the St. Louis Development Corp., a city economic development agency, about getting new tenants. He's also spoken with the developer, Developers Diversified Realty (DDR), and the leasing agent, The Sansone Group
There's no reason why that place shouldn't be full," Gregali said. The demographics are great for the shopping center, he said.
"I don't think that the leasing agent is aggressive enough," Gregali said, referring to Sansone.
The DDR official in charge of the shopping center was traveling Monday and unavailable for comment.
Gregali said he is trying to arrange a meeting with the mayor's office on the issue.
As for business, "I think it's OK. I think it would be better if there were more foot traffic," Gregali said. "The faster they fill up those spaces, the better it'll be for the other business."
One kind of business would help, Gregali said.
"We need a sit-down restaurant there. That's one of my goals. That makes it a destination point," Gregali said. "It makes it more attractive for other businesses to locate there."
The lack of stores at the Southtown Centre has caused the formation of one community group to wants to do something about it.
"We were basically noticing that there were a lack of businesses there," said John Asbury of the Southtown Business Boosters.
Read More
Jim Merkel
Of the Suburban Journals
South City Journal
09/27/2006
When the Southtown Centre opened in June 2004, an officer of the development company said the center was 70 percent leased and would be fully occupied by early 2005.
More than two years later, the shopping center at South Kingshighway Boulevard and Chippewa Street is largely empty.
Fourteen storefronts are empty and there are only nine businesses open in the shopping center that was built on the former site of the Southtown Famous-Barr. One early tenant, Fashion Guys, has left.
Alderman Stephen Gregali, D-14th Ward, who represents the area of the shopping center, said he has been working with the St. Louis Development Corp., a city economic development agency, about getting new tenants. He's also spoken with the developer, Developers Diversified Realty (DDR), and the leasing agent, The Sansone Group
There's no reason why that place shouldn't be full," Gregali said. The demographics are great for the shopping center, he said.
"I don't think that the leasing agent is aggressive enough," Gregali said, referring to Sansone.
The DDR official in charge of the shopping center was traveling Monday and unavailable for comment.
Gregali said he is trying to arrange a meeting with the mayor's office on the issue.
As for business, "I think it's OK. I think it would be better if there were more foot traffic," Gregali said. "The faster they fill up those spaces, the better it'll be for the other business."
One kind of business would help, Gregali said.
"We need a sit-down restaurant there. That's one of my goals. That makes it a destination point," Gregali said. "It makes it more attractive for other businesses to locate there."
The lack of stores at the Southtown Centre has caused the formation of one community group to wants to do something about it.
"We were basically noticing that there were a lack of businesses there," said John Asbury of the Southtown Business Boosters.
Read More
Pretty much everything that needs to be said is over at Urban Review, but I am only going to say that I am glad I moved to the other end of Mardel near Hampton Village and not near this mess!!!!
I've heard numerous things from different parties as to how messed up the management of the plaza is.
I'm just bummed the Buffalo Wild Wings never moved in. Apparently the really wanted in there but Sansone played a lot of 11th hour games with rent, signage, site prep and other stuff.
I'm just bummed the Buffalo Wild Wings never moved in. Apparently the really wanted in there but Sansone played a lot of 11th hour games with rent, signage, site prep and other stuff.
Who cares about Buffalo Wild Wings?
We have the best wings already!
Have you visited the original "since ~ 1930" Culpeppers in the West End!
We have the best wings already!
Have you visited the original "since ~ 1930" Culpeppers in the West End!
Doug wrote:Who cares about Buffalo Wild Wings?
We have the best wings already!
Have you visited the original "since ~ 1930" Culpeppers in the West End!
Two different businesses that serve wings. Culpeppers is a "regular" restaurant and BWW is a sports bar that serves food.
Does Culpeppers have sh*tloads of TVs and NTN Trivia machines? If I'm at BWW I'm watching multiple games and/or playing trivia. I guess Culpeppers could always open in Southtown Center: the CWE location is a good 4+ miles away.
Ah the sports bar.
There are other sports bars in the City?
Columbos has a few big TV's and there is a hooters at Union Station???
There are other sports bars in the City?
Columbos has a few big TV's and there is a hooters at Union Station???
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Doug wrote:....and there is a hooters at Union Station???
Wow, where have you been?
Doug wrote:Ah the sports bar.
There are other sports bars in the City?
Columbos has a few big TV's and there is a hooters at Union Station???
There's another thread about that subject:
http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t=3189&start=15
BTW: Hooters at Union Station closed in July and moved to Keiner Plaza.
Well I haven't been to Union Station in about 1 year.
Its not my destination.
Its not my destination.
Doug wrote:Well I haven't been to Union Station in about 1 year.
Its not my destination.
I understand, the place sucks. But have you been downtown couple of months? Driven down Market?
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Flannery's on Washington near Tucker is a great place to watch. Multiple large screens and good selection on tap.
- 11K
[sarcasm]
I like Southtown Centre - it's like a suburban oasis in the middle of an urban jungle . . . kind of like a museum - I hope it sticks around so that I can one day tell my grandson, "This is what lots of places looked like before that crazy 'experiment' called suburbia ended!"
[/sarcasm]
I like Southtown Centre - it's like a suburban oasis in the middle of an urban jungle . . . kind of like a museum - I hope it sticks around so that I can one day tell my grandson, "This is what lots of places looked like before that crazy 'experiment' called suburbia ended!"
[/sarcasm]
Ihnen wrote:[sarcasm]
I like Southtown Centre - it's like a suburban oasis in the middle of an urban jungle . . . kind of like a museum - I hope it sticks around so that I can one day tell my grandson, "This is what lots of places looked like before that crazy 'experiment' called suburbia ended!"
[/sarcasm]
But I've got to correct you.
I like St. Louis Marketplace - it's like a suburban oasis in the middle of an urban jungle . . . kind of like a museum - I hope it sticks around so that I can one day tell my grandson, "This is what lots of places looked like before that crazy 'experiment' called suburbia ended!"
Now that's better.
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Doug wrote:Have you visited the original "since ~ 1930" Culpeppers in the West End!
I swear by Culpepper's wings- and the original Euclid @ Maryland location. I still would've liked for Buffalo Wild Wings to locate in Southtown Center, because it is a good gameday destination when you don't have tickets, the wings are good in their own right, and it might make me feel better about what I think is easily the biggest recent failure in south St. Louis. Leave it to Sansone to screw things up.
As much as I enjoy many of our local coffee purveyors, I must confess to the occasional stop at the Southtown Center Starbucks, but now I can go to the much nicer St. Louis Hills location for a more guilt-free experience. I don't even like to look at Southtown Center, and I must say that it's lived up to my LOW expectations that I've had ever since I first saw the site plan. It's a complete joke- and unfortunately we're stuck with it for a long time.
The article about the complete failure of the center still fails to acknowledge that consumers demand an urban experience. The type and mix of stores is secondary to the DESIGN of the development.
It's such a huge waste of time and money in only a matter of a couple of years.
Will the developer and city government learn anything from this mistake?
It's such a huge waste of time and money in only a matter of a couple of years.
Will the developer and city government learn anything from this mistake?
ThreeOneFour wrote:It's a complete joke- and unfortunately we're stuck with it for a long time.
Is this the new St. Louis Centre? Can we wait 20 years?
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^No, we really can't afford to wait, but I'm afraid we have no choice. We aren't exactly the quickest city when it comes to addressing colossal civic failures- and St. Louis Centre and St. Louis Marketplace are prime examples. 
My wife likes the occasional treat at Cold Stone, and when she goes there I usually concede to my coffee addiction with a latte from the Starbucks next door. When we visited this miserable excuse of a shopping center earlier this evening, a sign indicated that this Cold Stone Creamery location is "temporarily" closed, with no further explanation. Hmmmm.
My wife likes the occasional treat at Cold Stone, and when she goes there I usually concede to my coffee addiction with a latte from the Starbucks next door. When we visited this miserable excuse of a shopping center earlier this evening, a sign indicated that this Cold Stone Creamery location is "temporarily" closed, with no further explanation. Hmmmm.