I got an email from them and their first location is Maplewood, tentatively the southeast corner of Manchester and Big bend. Maybe they'll tear down that hideous CVS lol.MRNHS wrote:Exactly! Here is something we can all contribute to. Tim Horton's set up this website specifically to figure out where the demand is. If enough people suggest downtown, then they will realize the demand and set one up there. It doesn't exactly take much time to submit where you would like THs.downtown2007 wrote:Tim Hortons is taking suggestions on where they should open 1 of their 40 locations.
A great opportunity to suggest downtown!!!!
http://timhortonsstl.com
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Gelateria Tavolina closing tomorrow.
http://www.stltoday.com/entertainment/d ... d767b.html
An increase in business over the years was not enough to keep up with rising costs/rent. If not them, hopefully a similar place can open up in the area.... we need every retail spot we can get.
http://www.stltoday.com/entertainment/d ... d767b.html
An increase in business over the years was not enough to keep up with rising costs/rent. If not them, hopefully a similar place can open up in the area.... we need every retail spot we can get.
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now closed.BrickCity4470 wrote:I was just curious does J Gumbos drawn in any sort of crowd whenever i walked past it and driven past it always seems looked empty as for left bank books they said they'll either expand their current CWE location or find another location within the city. I think preferably they rather be downtown again. I could see them taking up smaller space on Washington Ave
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That's sad, and it didn't take long.
Until the powers-that-be in our city realize we need a strategy to attract retailers and to retain existing downtown businesses, I can say that I have lost all hope for any significant retail presence in downtown St. Louis.
Until the powers-that-be in our city realize we need a strategy to attract retailers and to retain existing downtown businesses, I can say that I have lost all hope for any significant retail presence in downtown St. Louis.
A rising rental rate downtown? I'd sadly argue it should be lower today than seven years ago. Hopefully more residents downtown and a growing startup scene will change this.
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We have more businesses downtown than we did 7 years ago.jcity wrote:A rising rental rate downtown? I'd sadly argue it should be lower today than seven years ago. Hopefully more residents downtown and a growing startup scene will change this.
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^Can you back that up with some hard facts? I do think your right but honestly if i think of everything that has closed or downsized since ive lived downtown it just about equals what has opened. I dont just want to see the amount investment downtown i would see how that number changes when you factor in closing of Railway Exchange, Jefferson arms, At&t tower, lions choice, American Place, a bunch the store fronts around olive to tucker, Rue 13, Lola, Gelateria, etc, etc. (I threw out places that are still sitting empty). When i first moved down here St Louis Center still had 10 or 15 places in it., Walgreens, etc. So If you dont count that as on entity there is just shift with a hint of gain i suspect.
I would like to see some proof. And judging by the recent statement that retail is a hard sell downtown i just need some numbers
I would like to see some proof. And judging by the recent statement that retail is a hard sell downtown i just need some numbers
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^ It would be interesting to chart retail growth over the years. But with more properties being renovated, downtown may be in somewhat of an ironic position of having more retail businesses and more vacant space for rent.
Not quite sure how that impacts rents as a whole but when you see folks like the Chicago owners of the old Roberts properties thinking about adding street level apartments to the Board of Ed building instead of retail it makes you wonder about confidence in retail growth.
Not quite sure how that impacts rents as a whole but when you see folks like the Chicago owners of the old Roberts properties thinking about adding street level apartments to the Board of Ed building instead of retail it makes you wonder about confidence in retail growth.
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Perhaps DT2007 is right. However, I would submit that downtown at least felt like it was in a better place in 2006-2007 for a variety of reasons in my opinion. First, the economy was much better, as we were in the bubble just before the burst. Second, there were several projects on the drawing board at the time, some of which have been completed and have made downtown a better place, and others that have never left the drawing board.bigmclargehuge wrote:^Can you back that up with some hard facts? I do think your right but honestly if i think of everything that has closed or downsized since ive lived downtown it just about equals what has opened. I dont just want to see the amount investment downtown i would see how that number changes when you factor in closing of Railway Exchange, Jefferson arms, At&t tower, lions choice, American Place, a bunch the store fronts around olive to tucker, Rue 13, Lola, Gelateria, etc, etc. (I threw out places that are still sitting empty). When i first moved down here St Louis Center still had 10 or 15 places in it., Walgreens, etc. So If you dont count that as on entity there is just shift with a hint of gain i suspect.
I would like to see some proof. And judging by the recent statement that retail is a hard sell downtown i just need some numbers
Mercantile Exchange is a hit and a miss all at once. I mean that as no criticism of Amos Harris and Spinnaker- I think he has a great vision for the place that has yet to be realized and he deserves credit for doing as much as he could with the ruins of St. Louis Centre. However, keep in mind that the original Pyramid plan included condominiums in the old St. Louis Centre space, and now it is just a parking garage. Also, while the Washington Avenue side of MX is vibrant, the facades on Locust, Sixth, and Seventh streets still lack businesses and activity. Again, that was not Harris' fault, as the economy bottomed out and the rebound was slow. I honestly don't know what he or any other developer could've done differently in the last several years.
The loss of Macy's may or may not have been a big blow as its retail model only works in the most vibrant downtowns and in regional malls. However, its presence was felt, and there were still over 2000 jobs in the Railway Exchange from Macy's Midwest alone when May Company was bought out and the Famous-Barr nameplate was retired. Now, that building sits almost or completely empty, and there are no plans in sight for how it can be brought back despite the developer's commitment to the place. It would also have been a great anchor for MX, but then MX changed hands, the plan for GGP to attract retail went under when the company itself filed for bankruptcy, and what we're left with is better than nothing but still short of its full potential. Macy's downsizing also led to its demise in my opinion- it was a half-hearted and clumsy effort that seemed to signal that Macy's was never really committed to turning around the store and that they had no intention of sticking it out beyond the short-term. They stayed long enough to slash and burn what was left of May Company, I suppose.
That's why I believe downtown retail is going nowhere fast. Perhaps there's more retail downtown, I don't know. I wonder if we can track down those numbers, or how willing the Downtown Partnership would be to share them. Don't get me wrong, there are many great reasons to visit and to live in downtown, and I still think the upside and potential are there. However, I think the near-term future is a place defined mostly by convention and sports traffic as well as restaurants. I'm not sure what the Downtown Partnership has in store, and it seems like attracting more downtown retail is not a high priority at City Hall. More residents at places like the OPOP Tower and the Arcade will help, but then again, so would more jobs. Therefore, it's hard to be sanguine about the future of downtown retail even though the potential is still there in my opinion.
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How much of the retail issues a function of larger long-term trends like e-commerce and online purchasing vs. brick and mortar stores? Since this is a factor everywhere.
Some good analysis here. And some helpful illustrative anecdotes and observations, if not hard data.
These bring a couple questions to mind. How does downtown stack up to other retail centers in and around the city? Do The Loop, CWE, or DT Clayton have more retail than Downtown? In many regards those neighborhoods seem to offer greater retail variety, but perhaps less volume. When it comes to being one of the premier walkable, urban, neighborhood retail centers within the region, how does it stack up?
Non-sequitur: Kind ofsad that between those four premier walkable retail areas there isn't a single Walgreens/CVS (except the perriferal CWE ones which are entirely auto-oriented). Although each now has a grocery store, with the CWE about to get a second.
These bring a couple questions to mind. How does downtown stack up to other retail centers in and around the city? Do The Loop, CWE, or DT Clayton have more retail than Downtown? In many regards those neighborhoods seem to offer greater retail variety, but perhaps less volume. When it comes to being one of the premier walkable, urban, neighborhood retail centers within the region, how does it stack up?
Non-sequitur: Kind ofsad that between those four premier walkable retail areas there isn't a single Walgreens/CVS (except the perriferal CWE ones which are entirely auto-oriented). Although each now has a grocery store, with the CWE about to get a second.
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I just checked out the Partnership for Downtown St. Louis' site, and they list 61 retail stores. I'm not sure how up to date this listing is, however, as it still lists Left Bank Books and Geechi's, both of which have closed. Culinaria, Urban Shark and the mini CVS, on the other hand, are not listed. Culinaria is listed under restaurants.
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Good question. I wonder if the Downtown Parternship has considered this trend as it is a legitimate challenge to attracting more brick-and-mortar retailers not just to downtown St. Louis, but to any downtown or commercial area.imperialmog wrote:How much of the retail issues a function of larger long-term trends like e-commerce and online purchasing vs. brick and mortar stores? Since this is a factor everywhere.
I'd also like to know whether they have looked at best practices in other cities. I know that when the ex-Foley's flagship store-turned-Macy's closed in downtown Houston just months before our downtown location closed, the Houston mayor announced the creation of a task force to rejuvenate downtown retail. I don't want to discredit the Downtown Partnership, but I don't see this type of effort as something that's even on their radar. It also seems like it would be wise to study other downtown areas to see what they're doing to attract retail in the face of competition, not only from suburban areas, but also online commerce.
I'd also like to see our mayor show that he gives a damn about downtown retail. Like me, Mayor Slay is a Pink Floyd fan, and I sense that he is comfortably numb to the idea of taking a more proactive approach.
DeBaliviere, thanks for injecting some needed data into the discussion. Looks like the Partnership has some work to do, beginning with its website.
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Has E-commerce and online hit mainly clothing type business? Also isn't there a trend to shift from enclosed malls to more street level storefronts, across the country? Wouldn't most downtowns benefit from this shift?
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Here is the synopsis paragraph on retail for the 2014 State of Downtown Report:
Attracting and retaining quality shops continues to be a challenge in an evolving downtown with a growing but limited residential population. Nevertheless, over 30 new retail businesses opened in the past year with a consistent focus on dining, services and entertainment. Changes in downtown demographics and character along with the continuing evolution of retail are reflected in recent retail development activities downtown. f Macy’s closed its landmark Olive St. store, continuing the trend of department store closings in downtowns throughout the country including Houston, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Honolulu and St. Paul, among others. The MX District opened on Washington Avenue with four new restaurants, a three screen movie theater and two independent retailers - Trova Gifts and the award-winning Collective at MX.
Besides the new chief, the Partnership also recently hired a data/research guy so hopefully we'll be seeing some more concrete action plans moving forward. One thing I'd like to see is copying Cleveland's retail grants program targeting small, local shops to open in specific districts.... one of the banks and foundations helps support it.
Attracting and retaining quality shops continues to be a challenge in an evolving downtown with a growing but limited residential population. Nevertheless, over 30 new retail businesses opened in the past year with a consistent focus on dining, services and entertainment. Changes in downtown demographics and character along with the continuing evolution of retail are reflected in recent retail development activities downtown. f Macy’s closed its landmark Olive St. store, continuing the trend of department store closings in downtowns throughout the country including Houston, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Honolulu and St. Paul, among others. The MX District opened on Washington Avenue with four new restaurants, a three screen movie theater and two independent retailers - Trova Gifts and the award-winning Collective at MX.
Besides the new chief, the Partnership also recently hired a data/research guy so hopefully we'll be seeing some more concrete action plans moving forward. One thing I'd like to see is copying Cleveland's retail grants program targeting small, local shops to open in specific districts.... one of the banks and foundations helps support it.
^ And here is a look back at the retail scene from the 2008 State of Downtown Report:
THE CID CONTINUES TO IMPLEMENT A RETAIL STRATEGY that was launched in 2003 to re-establish street-level retail in
downtown St. Louis. The multi-phased strategy called for:
• focusing primarily in areas where substantial new investment is occurring
• targeting specific uses to build traffic and establish compatible co-tenancy
• offering financial support/incentives to new retailers
• providing direct leasing support through dedicated staff
• developing data and collateral materials to support retail leasing activity
To date, over 90 new retail businesses representing nearly 400,000 square feet of space have opened or committed to open by the end of 2008. While new retail businesses are opening throughout the downtown area, much of it has occurred within
the targeted areas and many with the participation or support of the CID. This includes 18 businesses who received nearly $400,000 in Forgivable Loans offered through a collaborative program with St. Louis Development Corporation and the City
of St. Louis.
Some of the new shops opened in the past year include Simply Elegant Bridal, Perchelle, A Taste of Luxury, Pour Homme, City Chic Boutique, Charm and English Living. New restaurants include B & T Pizza, the London Tea Room, Tigin Irish Pub, Sleek and Skybox. Retail businesses opening in the coming year include Schnucks’ Market, Mizu Sushi, 12th Street Animal Hospital
& Boutique/St. Francis Pet Services, 6th & Lucas Restaurant, Left Bank Books and Planet Subs.
I'm not sure we have that Forgivable Loan program any longer. Anyone know for sure?
THE CID CONTINUES TO IMPLEMENT A RETAIL STRATEGY that was launched in 2003 to re-establish street-level retail in
downtown St. Louis. The multi-phased strategy called for:
• focusing primarily in areas where substantial new investment is occurring
• targeting specific uses to build traffic and establish compatible co-tenancy
• offering financial support/incentives to new retailers
• providing direct leasing support through dedicated staff
• developing data and collateral materials to support retail leasing activity
To date, over 90 new retail businesses representing nearly 400,000 square feet of space have opened or committed to open by the end of 2008. While new retail businesses are opening throughout the downtown area, much of it has occurred within
the targeted areas and many with the participation or support of the CID. This includes 18 businesses who received nearly $400,000 in Forgivable Loans offered through a collaborative program with St. Louis Development Corporation and the City
of St. Louis.
Some of the new shops opened in the past year include Simply Elegant Bridal, Perchelle, A Taste of Luxury, Pour Homme, City Chic Boutique, Charm and English Living. New restaurants include B & T Pizza, the London Tea Room, Tigin Irish Pub, Sleek and Skybox. Retail businesses opening in the coming year include Schnucks’ Market, Mizu Sushi, 12th Street Animal Hospital
& Boutique/St. Francis Pet Services, 6th & Lucas Restaurant, Left Bank Books and Planet Subs.
I'm not sure we have that Forgivable Loan program any longer. Anyone know for sure?
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Are they being generous with their boundaries? I would guess BPV accounts for about half of that. Im having trouble coming up with just a couple of things that opened downtown the last year. My logic is confined to CBD and downtown westroger wyoming II wrote:Nevertheless, over 30 new retail businesses opened in the past year with a consistent focus on dining, services and entertainment.
EDIT: Apologies. i missed the line where they are counting the MX in their numbers. That plus BVP and a few other would make sense
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^ I think they might be taking a look at just the Downtown Core itself but not sure.... actually including 2014 they mention 40 added since Jan. 2013. It looks like they may have 7 for M/X and 11 for BPV so that's 18 right there. Hard to remember exactly when things opened but just some other recent ones off the top of my head include Pharoah's Donuts. the eye glass place in the Syndicate, Wheelhouse, the Indian restaurant in the Union Trust, Bobby's Place, the replacement dueling bar place on Wash, the new venue in LL, etc. so it all adds up. Of course, quite a few things have closed as well so it would be interesting to see the net change.
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Sorry i edited my post. Didnt realize they went far back enough to count MX. 30 does make sense then. Lots of closings lately but still looks like a small gain in retail.
Here are the closings i can think of
Lola
Rue 13
Gelateria
Left Bank
Local Harvest (Being replaced)
J Gumbos
Mosaic
Bank at corner of Pine and Broadway
London Tea Room
Furniture Store next to Tea Room (Forgot the name)
Diner at corner of Wash and Tucker (May have closed before 2013)
Salon at 14th and Wash Ave.
IM sure a few others. So take BPV out of the picture and there was probably bascially zero gain. Glad we can use BPV to make the numbers better.
Here are the closings i can think of
Lola
Rue 13
Gelateria
Left Bank
Local Harvest (Being replaced)
J Gumbos
Mosaic
Bank at corner of Pine and Broadway
London Tea Room
Furniture Store next to Tea Room (Forgot the name)
Diner at corner of Wash and Tucker (May have closed before 2013)
Salon at 14th and Wash Ave.
IM sure a few others. So take BPV out of the picture and there was probably bascially zero gain. Glad we can use BPV to make the numbers better.
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^ English Living. What's going in at the OPO spot? I guess most important may be how many storefronts have not been replaced.... for example Everest was replaced with a new Indian spot so not as much of a biggie as say losing English Living and London Tea Room for street level activity.
Not trying to be a Debbie Downer, just stating things as I see them:
That's silly to count whats opened with little-to-no reference to whats closed. It would be like calculating one's net worth based on gains made in investments but not losses.The Partnership wrote wrote:over 30 new retail business opened in the past year with a consistent focus on dining, services and entertainment.
Trading individual locally owned small business storefronts that brought a unique a fresh vibe to downtown for an equal amount of economic activity that BPV provides is a net loss to me. Not to mention they didn't get the breaks BPV got.bigmclargehuge wrote:M sure a few others. So take BPV out of the picture and there was probably bascially zero gain. Glad we can use BPV to make the numbers better.
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Off the top of my head these storefronts were vacant when I moved downtown in 2007. And this is only Wash Ave storefronts.
Nara
Rosalitas
Luckys
Hair of the Dog
Stanleys
Empire Pizza
Over Under
Flamingo Bowl
Blades
Bobby’s
Architectural Firm in the Parastyle building
DNA
Lockerdome
Copia Market
Sprint
CLRMNSTR
Nara
Rosalitas
Luckys
Hair of the Dog
Stanleys
Empire Pizza
Over Under
Flamingo Bowl
Blades
Bobby’s
Architectural Firm in the Parastyle building
DNA
Lockerdome
Copia Market
Sprint
CLRMNSTR
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Yeah thats what worries my your list spans 7 years. My list of closing is just since Jan 2013. ANd i forgot Macys and a few others. SO add that in and were basically at zero gain the last few years. I can go back further and add things like Hudson Jewlers, Golds Gym, Dooleys, Lions CHoice, etc. But i cannot remember that far back. Hopefully the closings are over. If more happen we will start eating into the gains from years back. Factor in job loss and as a property owner im torn. THings will get better but how much time and patience i have is questionabledowntown2007 wrote:Off the top of my head these storefronts were vacant when I moved downtown in 2007. And this is only Wash Ave storefronts.
Nara
Rosalitas
Luckys
Hair of the Dog
Stanleys
Empire Pizza
Over Under
Flamingo Bowl
Blades
Bobby’s
Architectural Firm in the Parastyle building
DNA
Lockerdome
Copia Market
Sprint
CLRMNSTR
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^ Retail businesses come and go but what seems to be clear is that we won't make any clear, decisive gains in retail until we get thousands of more people downtown. And I think that is going to have to be a combo of both employees and residents. The sky seemed to be the limit in the 2008 report and I think most are more restrained now in our expectation for our rate of progress.