^ That's not that much. I mean my Civic cost 0.00002 BILLION dollars.
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publiceye wrote:A large TIF would be bad press for a city government that might have to furlough employees.
And the visible results of decades of private disinvestment in north St. Louis are good press? Really.
Neither are good press. This is not either/or -- it's time for a screwdriver, not a hammer.
Moorlander wrote:Who's on Mckee's team? Consultants, Planners, Architects etc
Here are a few known consultants beyond Civitas:
Eagle Realty
Community Program Development Corporation
Urban Planning and Redevelopment Corporation (http://www.updc.com/)
Urban Solutions
The longtime resident quoted in the article summed it up best:
Of course it is. Are we really so stupid to suck tax dollars from other parts of the city and pour them into this? Best of luck to McKee, but on his own dime.
And some were concerned that the first part of the plan was focused on office-building, with residential improvements to come later.
"I have a feeling they're going to do the easy part, the profitable part, the commercial part," Bratkowski said. "And that it's going to be like Kiel (Opera House) or Ballpark Village and they're not going to do the rest."
Of course it is. Are we really so stupid to suck tax dollars from other parts of the city and pour them into this? Best of luck to McKee, but on his own dime.
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^ can you explain to us how this project would "suck tax dollars from other parts of the city"?
Isn't this all just a shell game? Sure, they can revitalize that part of north city, but they're just moving the murderers and drug dealers right over the county line or (gasp) down to my neck of the woods. Is that progress?
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^ Yes. And are you suggesting that we do nothing with the neighborhood to keep the "murderers and drug dealers" isolated from the rest of the city? ..... ?
I really don't think that the criminals moving elsewhere should be a paramount concern regarding this project. It may happen to some extent, but focusing on that issue is missing the point of redevelopment entirely. Improving this portion of the city benefits the entire region by (at the very least) contributing to improved perceptions of the Northside in general and by extension the city proper overall.
I really don't think that the criminals moving elsewhere should be a paramount concern regarding this project. It may happen to some extent, but focusing on that issue is missing the point of redevelopment entirely. Improving this portion of the city benefits the entire region by (at the very least) contributing to improved perceptions of the Northside in general and by extension the city proper overall.
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kujay wrote:Isn't this all just a shell game? Sure, they can revitalize that part of north city, but they're just moving the murderers and drug dealers right over the county line or (gasp) down to my neck of the woods. Is that progress?
Those who think that "moving the murderers and drug dealers" is a big issue for this project have never been to the neighborhoods involved.
There are more gangs in Gravois Park than in JeffVanderLou (no offense to either neighborhood).
The areas McEagle is targeting are mostly quiet places. Too quiet.
(By the way, moderators -- shouldn't this topic be moved to the north St. Louis section? Would be nice to have that dusty corner of the forum active!)
shouldn't this topic be moved to the north St. Louis section? Would be nice to have that dusty corner of the forum active!
Amen, eco. Too often this forum imitates life.
ecoabsence wrote:(By the way, moderators -- shouldn't this topic be moved to the north St. Louis section? Would be nice to have that dusty corner of the forum active!)
I'm scared to go to that part of the forum. It's way too dangerous.
-RBB
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[paraphrasing STLtoday comment]
Yeah, did you see that kid in the P-D photo, I mean who would want to get out of the car when THAT's what you'll run in to. Hey - just keepin' it real!
Yeah, did you see that kid in the P-D photo, I mean who would want to get out of the car when THAT's what you'll run in to. Hey - just keepin' it real!
Grover wrote:^ can you explain to us how this project would "suck tax dollars from other parts of the city"?
Same way that St. Louis Marketplace, Ballpark Village, or any other TIF project creates false competition and takes away business from those who weren't so blessed with TIF money. Face it; business isn't created out of thin air without residents to support it. Building commercial first is just a shell game like all of the others.
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bprop wrote:Grover wrote:^ can you explain to us how this project would "suck tax dollars from other parts of the city"?
Same way that St. Louis Marketplace, Ballpark Village, or any other TIF project creates false competition and takes away business from those who weren't so blessed with TIF money. Face it; business isn't created out of thin air without residents to support it. Building commercial first is just a shell game like all of the others.
I think it's very clear how TIF for Walmart to locate in Richmond Heights as opposed to Brentwood is a loss for taxpayers. Sports stadiums? It's likely a wash unless the TIF is enormous and then it's a loss. But TIFs were created to address distressed area which would not otherwise see development.
By the way, the P-D story is no longer on their homepage top stories slideshow. It's been pushed aside for:
1) a story about Twitter
2) the Cardinals
3) American Idol
4) the Coleman murders
1) a story about Twitter
2) the Cardinals
3) American Idol
4) the Coleman murders
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Certain media outlets need to stop considering American Idol to be "news."
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am I reading this correctly? Is he proposing a light rail line built with private money? (albeit with HUGE tax breaks). would it be a for profit line (like the streetcars used to be). I'd be all for that.
and I'm not sure why everyone is so skeptical on this forum. if Living in St. Louis for the last 30 years has taught me anything - its that when a plan for proposed development is drafted said proposed development soon follows. I mean its not like we're in the habit of wasting money just to pile up development plans.
i really should develop a sarcasm font.
and I'm not sure why everyone is so skeptical on this forum. if Living in St. Louis for the last 30 years has taught me anything - its that when a plan for proposed development is drafted said proposed development soon follows. I mean its not like we're in the habit of wasting money just to pile up development plans.
i really should develop a sarcasm font.
ecoabsence wrote:kujay wrote:Isn't this all just a shell game? Sure, they can revitalize that part of north city, but they're just moving the murderers and drug dealers right over the county line or (gasp) down to my neck of the woods. Is that progress?
Those who think that "moving the murderers and drug dealers" is a big issue for this project have never been to the neighborhoods involved.
There are more gangs in Gravois Park than in JeffVanderLou (no offense to either neighborhood).
The areas McEagle is targeting are mostly quiet places. Too quiet.
(By the way, moderators -- shouldn't this topic be moved to the north St. Louis section? Would be nice to have that dusty corner of the forum active!)
I understand, but these large, vacant swaths of land are next to some areas that are not so nice. Are they thinking people will just move right in with all the violence going on right next door?
kujay wrote:ecoabsence wrote:kujay wrote:Isn't this all just a shell game? Sure, they can revitalize that part of north city, but they're just moving the murderers and drug dealers right over the county line or (gasp) down to my neck of the woods. Is that progress?
Those who think that "moving the murderers and drug dealers" is a big issue for this project have never been to the neighborhoods involved.
There are more gangs in Gravois Park than in JeffVanderLou (no offense to either neighborhood).
The areas McEagle is targeting are mostly quiet places. Too quiet.
(By the way, moderators -- shouldn't this topic be moved to the north St. Louis section? Would be nice to have that dusty corner of the forum active!)
I understand, but these large, vacant swaths of land are next to some areas that are not so nice. Are they thinking people will just move right in with all the violence going on right next door?
Last year I was in Los Angeles and saw million dollar homes in Watts and people lived in them. I'm not saying St. Louis is So Cal in terms of property value, but Watts is not to much different than North St. Louis. If the price is right and there is good security (ahem.....I smell blocked streets, 24 hr security, and gated communities) people will buy. Just think about it, there is million dollar mansions in the CWE just blocks away from some of the most violent areas of the city. Criminals are not going to go to areas where they stick out like a sore thumb.
People will buy in this new development if there is something novel like a historic trolley line, property values will go through the roof. Not to mention I heard an interview with Slay talking about they would build schools, churches, storefronts, sounds very much like a new urbanist community. They are very popular in the Sunbelt, to me this just sounds like New Town - St. Louis.
goat314 wrote:Last year I was in Los Angeles and saw million dollar homes in Watts and people lived in them. I'm not saying St. Louis is So Cal in terms of property value, but Watts is not to much different than North St. Louis. If the price is right and there is good security (ahem.....I smell blocked streets, 24 hr security, and gated communities). Just think about it, there is million dollar mansions in the CWE just blocks away from some of the most violent areas of the city. Criminals are not going to go to areas where they stick out like a sore thumb.
This is true, but to live in these places there needs to be services as well. A grocery store other than Save-A-Lot, gas stations where they won't get harassed by bums, etc.
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I see this whole development as the best chance of constructive economic redevelopment for the North Side our collective lifetimes. For the massive blighting the area has been taking since the 1950s, it needs a comprehensive plan with hundreds of millions of dollars in new construction, economic development, and personal economic progressions for the resident communities. This is possibly the best chance we've got.
I know a commercial real estate player in town who, after multiple election cycles for multiple mayors (and other officeholders), has sought & achieved audiences with City Hall regarding North Side redevelopment, with the fundamental understandings that it must be new, broad, massive in scope, promote new business & jobs, and receive support from all facets of the city. No, this is not someone who's affiliated with Blairmont, just a professional who's interested in the City's reemergence. His ideas, though, ring true in that we can't put a band-aid on a massive bleed & expect the problem to be fixed; only massive attention across the problem area can hope to contain the problem and lead to a cure.
And, with the economic incentives coming from DC for fiscal renewal, this could be ideal. While I'm not a fan of how the property buildup has taken place so far, I'm not interested in throwing stones right now as much as I just want to see what the possible solution may be.
Right now, let's just try to be patient & see what happens when this goes public. Until then, I'm hopeful, and more than excited to see pictures.
And remember, this is the best chance for hope for StL.
The rest of the Metro Area's solution to the North Side is akin to Ellen Ripley's famous battle cry:
I know a commercial real estate player in town who, after multiple election cycles for multiple mayors (and other officeholders), has sought & achieved audiences with City Hall regarding North Side redevelopment, with the fundamental understandings that it must be new, broad, massive in scope, promote new business & jobs, and receive support from all facets of the city. No, this is not someone who's affiliated with Blairmont, just a professional who's interested in the City's reemergence. His ideas, though, ring true in that we can't put a band-aid on a massive bleed & expect the problem to be fixed; only massive attention across the problem area can hope to contain the problem and lead to a cure.
And, with the economic incentives coming from DC for fiscal renewal, this could be ideal. While I'm not a fan of how the property buildup has taken place so far, I'm not interested in throwing stones right now as much as I just want to see what the possible solution may be.
Right now, let's just try to be patient & see what happens when this goes public. Until then, I'm hopeful, and more than excited to see pictures.
And remember, this is the best chance for hope for StL.
The rest of the Metro Area's solution to the North Side is akin to Ellen Ripley's famous battle cry:
And that was just for a colony of aggressive carnivorous xenomorphs with concentrated acid for blood and a need to coccoon humans. We've got the North Side and its decades of economic disenfranchisement & decay to fight, truly the bigger challenge.I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
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kujay wrote:goat314 wrote:Last year I was in Los Angeles and saw million dollar homes in Watts and people lived in them. I'm not saying St. Louis is So Cal in terms of property value, but Watts is not to much different than North St. Louis. If the price is right and there is good security (ahem.....I smell blocked streets, 24 hr security, and gated communities). Just think about it, there is million dollar mansions in the CWE just blocks away from some of the most violent areas of the city. Criminals are not going to go to areas where they stick out like a sore thumb.
This is true, but to live in these places there needs to be services as well. A grocery store other than Save-A-Lot, gas stations where they won't get harassed by bums, etc.
actually unlike New Town in St. Charles the services that spring up to service a development like this would likely be within the development. Right now New Town contains a couple of boutique stores but two miles away a very suburban Walgreens, strip shopping center and fast food have been built at Elm St. and 370. Kind of defeats the whole purpose if you ask me.
Due to the above reasons a "New Town North STL" would be more likely to have grocery stores and other retail actually built within it's confines
I think Blairmont is going to be a New Urbanist Community and will packaged as such.
I can hear the cheesy commercials now.
"Come to Blairmont the new urbanist community just north of the newly renovated loft district. Why commute down the highway everyday, when you can take the historic trolley line downtown every morning, Great access to all the cultural amenities of the city, with the comfort and security of the suburbs, nestled in between highway 70 and Grand Ave with easy access to the newly opened Mississippi River Bridge!"
I read a lot of comments on the STLTODAY Blog about this being Pruitt Igoe II, which is a bunch of crap. This community will likely be mixed-income with "affordable housing", not section 8. It really comes to a point where you have to wonder, why would a filthy rich developer go through all of these hoops just to build a bunch of section 8 housing with vinyl siding. Paul McKee is a speculator and sees the younger generations infatuation urban living and wants to cash in on the revitalization of the city.
I can hear the cheesy commercials now.
"Come to Blairmont the new urbanist community just north of the newly renovated loft district. Why commute down the highway everyday, when you can take the historic trolley line downtown every morning, Great access to all the cultural amenities of the city, with the comfort and security of the suburbs, nestled in between highway 70 and Grand Ave with easy access to the newly opened Mississippi River Bridge!"
I read a lot of comments on the STLTODAY Blog about this being Pruitt Igoe II, which is a bunch of crap. This community will likely be mixed-income with "affordable housing", not section 8. It really comes to a point where you have to wonder, why would a filthy rich developer go through all of these hoops just to build a bunch of section 8 housing with vinyl siding. Paul McKee is a speculator and sees the younger generations infatuation urban living and wants to cash in on the revitalization of the city.
- 11K
I won't disagree with some of the negative comments here, but would like to add:
A lot of us here would like to see investment and development in North St. Louis, and elsewhere in the city. Some of us have a vision of what that would be, some of us have personally seen or read about examples of what has worked in other communities and other countries. If we could, we would bring some of these ideas to St. Louis. The fact is that none of us here have the financial capacity and business ties to do so. So what if 30 years from now I have made millions working in development or some other field and I choose to invest in the most neglected park of St. Louis? Why would that be bad?
I get the feeling that those who see this project as simply a big money-maker for McKee and others are the same people who shout "socialism" when private profits are regulated. No surprise there perhaps.
A lot of us here would like to see investment and development in North St. Louis, and elsewhere in the city. Some of us have a vision of what that would be, some of us have personally seen or read about examples of what has worked in other communities and other countries. If we could, we would bring some of these ideas to St. Louis. The fact is that none of us here have the financial capacity and business ties to do so. So what if 30 years from now I have made millions working in development or some other field and I choose to invest in the most neglected park of St. Louis? Why would that be bad?
I get the feeling that those who see this project as simply a big money-maker for McKee and others are the same people who shout "socialism" when private profits are regulated. No surprise there perhaps.
goat314 wrote:I think Blairmont is going to be a New Urbanist Community and will packaged as such.
To be honest, I think a New Urbanism community here would be 100% fantastic. North St. Louis is the setting that new urbanism was made for. NU has gotten a bad name and a lot of criticism from me and a whole load of others because like New Town St. Charles they are built miles from any established infrastructure and amenities. This would clearly not be the case for North St. Louis.