How strong of a need is there in building a new train bridge across the Mississippi River? Since couldn't in the design of any new one separate tracks for HSR could be done?
According to the TRRA Pres we don't need a new bridge though that wasn't in the context of building true HSR.
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Ah, though I wonder if they were only speaking in terms of capacity or also age issues. Since the rail bridges that are currently used are old and wasn't sure if there may be a time where they need replacement due to age. If replacement is needed it would be good to consider HSR in planning and design.quincunx wrote:According to the TRRA Pres we don't need a new bridge though that wasn't in the context of building true HSR.
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There's plenty of land to work with & I don't think the challenges are as difficult as may appear at first glance..... of course this would be long term (as HSR is to begin with) but my general vision would be to have the station in between the MLK and Eads bridges, making it easily accessible to the existing Metrolink line and even for a walk/bike over the Eads into downtown STL. The TOD would include both this area as well as south of the Eads to include the general area of the casino development. (I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any flood plain issues that entirely preclude building more commercial or even residential in that area.... the hotel and casino are already there. Anyone know for sure?)mill204 wrote:^ The highways, the railroads, the Illinois Arch grounds, the floodplain, the traffic across the PSB, the lack of nearby walkable transit…
In conjunction with this TOD/HSR development, NPS/C+A+R would construct the eastern portion of the JNEM --- give us our gondolas for god's sake! This could be the type of thing to activate the potential for the area and give E STL a big lift, and in so doing STL and the region as well.
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I just don't get how people can be so frustrated with the east side of the riverfront and then reject out of hand any public investment on that side of the river. Especially if it was coupled with significant private development proposal.
That said I don't propose this as welfare for the East side. I think there are serious reason why such a location might be considered that creates more opportunities to connect the downtown core to cities like Chicago, Memphis, Indianapolis, Louisville, and Nashville as well as potentially simplify through traffic to KC. I don't think the twisting route Amtrak takes along the Missouri River is compatible with HSR. To retain the current location for AmTrak I think they would have to consider using I64 to Wentville corridor for the HSR corridor. My thinking is all about moving people as efficiently as possible. If I'm wrong and it would not be better then I'd concede but I like to see a study comparing the two in good faith with, at minimum, the assumption that St. Louis would have direct connection to Chicago and KC via HSR and allowing minor weighting to the sunk cost in the current GTC as well as the potential for future routes to major cities in the Midwest.
That said I don't propose this as welfare for the East side. I think there are serious reason why such a location might be considered that creates more opportunities to connect the downtown core to cities like Chicago, Memphis, Indianapolis, Louisville, and Nashville as well as potentially simplify through traffic to KC. I don't think the twisting route Amtrak takes along the Missouri River is compatible with HSR. To retain the current location for AmTrak I think they would have to consider using I64 to Wentville corridor for the HSR corridor. My thinking is all about moving people as efficiently as possible. If I'm wrong and it would not be better then I'd concede but I like to see a study comparing the two in good faith with, at minimum, the assumption that St. Louis would have direct connection to Chicago and KC via HSR and allowing minor weighting to the sunk cost in the current GTC as well as the potential for future routes to major cities in the Midwest.
Maybe we need an ideas for ESTL thread. There has to be cheaper things ESTL could do (or done in ESTL by others) that would have higher returns and could be done a lot sooner than having an HSR line terminate there which is decades away. If it's on the other side of the highway it's easy to ignore the rest.
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Can't argue against that point. Making HSR terminus the lynch pin means waiting till its ready which could be decades or if the political winds change could be 5 years. But I wouldn't bet on that.could be done a lot sooner than having an HSR line terminate there which is decades away.
I don't think the expense of building a new hub building is as significant an expense as actually laying the track. So I wouldn't think that'd be the real roadblock. TOD needs to happen there whether they get a rail hub or not, so i consider that cost a non-issue.
I can't help but feel that we are ignoring some of the other obstacles to developing the East side of the riverfront, namely how poisoned the land is in a lot of places. Monsanto, Pfizer, Cerro Copper, Big River Zinc and others have been poisoning the land and water in and around East St. Louis for decades. And these companies by and large don't employ people who live in East St. Louis, nor do they pay property taxes to support the schools or or really do anything at all to benefit East St. Louis.
These are all the superfund sites in and around East St. Louis.
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There is also an ongoing asthma epidemic caused by generations of air pollution, starting with the coal dust that used to blanket the city.
We are also neglecting to mention that the 150 year old sewers are quite literally spewing sh*t into the streets and that the local high school has been flooded by liquefied waste numerous times. Also, garbage collection only occurs for those that can afford to pay out of pocket for it, meaning there are vast illegal dumps for people's trash, further polluting the land, water and air.
Nobody is going to invest in East St. Louis until the pollution is cleaned up and a high speed rail stop isn't going to do anything to help these people, who couldn't even afford to ride the train.
These are all the superfund sites in and around East St. Louis.
There is also an ongoing asthma epidemic caused by generations of air pollution, starting with the coal dust that used to blanket the city.
We are also neglecting to mention that the 150 year old sewers are quite literally spewing sh*t into the streets and that the local high school has been flooded by liquefied waste numerous times. Also, garbage collection only occurs for those that can afford to pay out of pocket for it, meaning there are vast illegal dumps for people's trash, further polluting the land, water and air.
Nobody is going to invest in East St. Louis until the pollution is cleaned up and a high speed rail stop isn't going to do anything to help these people, who couldn't even afford to ride the train.
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Actually I am somewhat encouraged by that map. Most of the Major Superfund Sites are South of the MacArthur Bridge or a significant distance from the riverfront. I would have not been surprised to see a site associated with Armour Meat Packing Plant but it seems that area missed to worst of it.
As far as whether the people currently there can afford to ride the train, that seems irrelevant to me. The point is to attract new people in that CAN afford these things and provide job opportunities and tax revenue for those currently there that can't.
As far as whether the people currently there can afford to ride the train, that seems irrelevant to me. The point is to attract new people in that CAN afford these things and provide job opportunities and tax revenue for those currently there that can't.
The problem I see with an ESTL Amtrak station is that it would be lacking the multi-modal connection to Metrobus routes that the current station has. Adding an extra leg onto the journey by making bus passengers connect via light rail would be a lot less convenient.
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Fake dirt has been broken today for the California HSR
^ Two big things happen since the New Year for California HSR going forward despite some pretty strong political and legal headwinds the last two years
1) Cali Cap and trade on gasoline went into effect on Jan 1st pretty much guaranteeing HSR a dedicated funding source of $250 mil a year from state. Might not be enough but it will get Cali in a position to get 90-110 train service out of San Fran Bay & LA Basin while providing a dedicated passenger only rail through the central valley at much higher speed.
2) Gov. Jerry Brown was sworn in yesterday for his fourth term. HSR right of way will happen in Central Valley before a major lane addition to either I-5 or Hwy 99. Gov also noted $59 billion back log in differed road and bridge maintenance. I think he pretty much articulated his plan for next 4 years. Capital investment in HSR to expand transportation capacity through Central Valley while getting the current road and bridge network in a state of good repair.
It will be also interesting on how tow Higher Speed proposals play out in Florida & Texas. All Board FL, the private venture from Miami to Orlando seems to be moving forward and the private equity group has stated that they don't need a federal loan going forward. Texas consortium pushing for HSR between Dallas and Texas signed on the Japanese. However, not sure Texas folks are even in the same league as Cali and Florida.
1) Cali Cap and trade on gasoline went into effect on Jan 1st pretty much guaranteeing HSR a dedicated funding source of $250 mil a year from state. Might not be enough but it will get Cali in a position to get 90-110 train service out of San Fran Bay & LA Basin while providing a dedicated passenger only rail through the central valley at much higher speed.
2) Gov. Jerry Brown was sworn in yesterday for his fourth term. HSR right of way will happen in Central Valley before a major lane addition to either I-5 or Hwy 99. Gov also noted $59 billion back log in differed road and bridge maintenance. I think he pretty much articulated his plan for next 4 years. Capital investment in HSR to expand transportation capacity through Central Valley while getting the current road and bridge network in a state of good repair.
It will be also interesting on how tow Higher Speed proposals play out in Florida & Texas. All Board FL, the private venture from Miami to Orlando seems to be moving forward and the private equity group has stated that they don't need a federal loan going forward. Texas consortium pushing for HSR between Dallas and Texas signed on the Japanese. However, not sure Texas folks are even in the same league as Cali and Florida.
Setback on production for new Bi-Level rail cars meant for Cali, Illinois, Michigan and believe Missouri. Major test failure which means that problem has to be found, corrected and start over. Not sure how much delays production but in this day and age of engineering, modeling and past experience of the builder surprising that this would happen.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/20 ... ppon-story
ROCHELLE, Ill. — Nippon Sharyo is laying off workers at the plant assembling bilevel passenger cars after a prototype failed key safety tests.
Plant managers announced the layoffs on Thursday saying they are "... a result of complications during the testing phase of one of its prototype cars."
Nippon Sharyo is building the cars to one design for state-sponsored Amtrak service in several states, including Michigan and California.
Bruce Roberts, Chief of California’s Division of Rail in the Department of Public Transportation, the agency that is overseeing the procurement for the states, tells Trains that he learned from Nippon Sharyo on Thursday that the company has yet to discover whether the 800,000-pound compression test failure which caused the shell to buckle was the result of poor workmanship, production failures, or a fundamental design flaw.
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/20 ... ppon-story
ROCHELLE, Ill. — Nippon Sharyo is laying off workers at the plant assembling bilevel passenger cars after a prototype failed key safety tests.
Plant managers announced the layoffs on Thursday saying they are "... a result of complications during the testing phase of one of its prototype cars."
Nippon Sharyo is building the cars to one design for state-sponsored Amtrak service in several states, including Michigan and California.
Bruce Roberts, Chief of California’s Division of Rail in the Department of Public Transportation, the agency that is overseeing the procurement for the states, tells Trains that he learned from Nippon Sharyo on Thursday that the company has yet to discover whether the 800,000-pound compression test failure which caused the shell to buckle was the result of poor workmanship, production failures, or a fundamental design flaw.
Plans for new Alton Amtrak Station. Just feels way out of the way surrounded by retail stores, a cemetery, forest, a stroad, a handful of homes protected by a landscape buffer.
http://cmt-stl.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... TATION.pdf
http://cmt-stl.org/wp-content/uploads/2 ... TATION.pdf
riverbender.com - Groundbreaking for Alton Regional Multi-Modal Transportation Center marks historic moment
http://www.riverbender.com/articles/det ... n-9096.cfm
http://www.riverbender.com/articles/det ... n-9096.cfm
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Unfortunately, the Amtrak tracks don't really go through Alton. They skirt the northeastern edge of town a couple miles from the center of Alton.
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It would be nice if the USA could put a hefty downpayment on a high-speed rail network with German Engineering fines.
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Yeah I can think of better location along that line, but none that I would call "good", and they would all be significantly more expensive.Presbyterian wrote:Unfortunately, the Amtrak tracks don't really go through Alton. They skirt the northeastern edge of town a couple miles from the center of Alton.
The current location for instance would probably require moving some electrical wires or buying some houses, and or a more expensive station design. All that and only marginally better from an urban perspective.
RW, while it would be amazing if the Congress/POTUS could finally put together a long term transportation plan that significantly invests in rail. In the mean time, It is interesting to note that four distinct regional rail plans are coming together in four very different ways. Could almost think of it as your England, Germany, France, Spain, so on versions with an Asian twist. Of course, it is not a national system by any stretch of the imagination but might see significantly more rail investment to come.
1) Northeast Corridor, the tired system finally got political support from both NY and NJ governors' stating that they are willing to find a way to pay for half of a new Hudson Rail tunnel. Throw in the efforts of VA and NC to plod along trying to get a southeast extension and you might have the political makings for real investment again. Also, believe NY Gov jumped the gun but Amtrak's choice for the next round of higher speed trainsets to replace Acela is suppose to be forthcoming.
2) All Aboard Florida is methodically making its way forward with decent train service connecting Orlando with Palm Beach and onto Ft. Lauderdale and Miami. A big part of this will be all new dedicated separated right of way next to a freeway from the coast over to Orlando. This is big, because it takes a play book out of the original proposed Tampa to Orlando along the freeway.
3) Texas high speed rail between Dallas and Houston continues to get approvals as well as commitments for dedicated RoW and some state funding to boot. The kicker that will make it happen, Japan High Speed looking to put its mark on Texas. I think Texas on the state political level is embracing a legitimate rail plan with legitimate private backing just as Texas has embraced toll roads, private tolling to find a way to build transportation infrastructure
4) California High Speed Rail is getting the lion's share of state annual Cap and Trade funds, along with bond funds and a commitment in place to electrify Caltrains on San Fran peninsula has meant that the train has left the station for a legitimate, vastly improve rail service between LA and Bay Area that will include true high speed for a good portion of its trip. Just to further improve the chances is a revised Desert Express high speed rail plan between LA and Las Vegas being backed by the Chinese. Any Chinese/private investment in California High Speed Rail is going to move things along quicker.
1) Northeast Corridor, the tired system finally got political support from both NY and NJ governors' stating that they are willing to find a way to pay for half of a new Hudson Rail tunnel. Throw in the efforts of VA and NC to plod along trying to get a southeast extension and you might have the political makings for real investment again. Also, believe NY Gov jumped the gun but Amtrak's choice for the next round of higher speed trainsets to replace Acela is suppose to be forthcoming.
2) All Aboard Florida is methodically making its way forward with decent train service connecting Orlando with Palm Beach and onto Ft. Lauderdale and Miami. A big part of this will be all new dedicated separated right of way next to a freeway from the coast over to Orlando. This is big, because it takes a play book out of the original proposed Tampa to Orlando along the freeway.
3) Texas high speed rail between Dallas and Houston continues to get approvals as well as commitments for dedicated RoW and some state funding to boot. The kicker that will make it happen, Japan High Speed looking to put its mark on Texas. I think Texas on the state political level is embracing a legitimate rail plan with legitimate private backing just as Texas has embraced toll roads, private tolling to find a way to build transportation infrastructure
4) California High Speed Rail is getting the lion's share of state annual Cap and Trade funds, along with bond funds and a commitment in place to electrify Caltrains on San Fran peninsula has meant that the train has left the station for a legitimate, vastly improve rail service between LA and Bay Area that will include true high speed for a good portion of its trip. Just to further improve the chances is a revised Desert Express high speed rail plan between LA and Las Vegas being backed by the Chinese. Any Chinese/private investment in California High Speed Rail is going to move things along quicker.
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When will the HSR section between StL and Chicago be completed? 2017? Do the trains reach 110mph yet or will that be later?
It's taking forever. They say 2017. Currently 110 is only for a few miles between Dwight and Pontiac.moorlander wrote:When will the HSR section between StL and Chicago be completed? 2017? Do the trains reach 110mph yet or will that be later?
110 is an improvement but man I was hoping for 150mph. Everyday commuter trains in Europe travel 90mph with the true high speeds 186mph. 4 hours isn't bad but I think it's still going to be a tough sell vs the airlines. 3 would be a good target goal in time.
^ If they can't get at least 110 mph over the entire route and get freight traffic (i.e. delays) off the alignment, driving will always be more time and cost effective. Right now, even with 110 mph over very short stretches, the trip is long and unbearable compared to flying or driving. The biggest problems are the unpredictable delays due to shared traffic with freight trains and the ridiculously slow speeds getting into and out of Chicago and St. Louis.
That being said, I still prefer the plane ride into ORD/MDW to the train to driving, especially for solo trips or business trips. If you are traveling with a family or group, driving will probably always make more sense in terms of optimizing cost and time.
The sad state of affairs is that trains in the US aren't competing with planes for passenger traffic, they're competing with cars. Make it faster than driving then focus on electrification and high speed (not "higher" speed).
Same could be said for the STL-KC route.
That being said, I still prefer the plane ride into ORD/MDW to the train to driving, especially for solo trips or business trips. If you are traveling with a family or group, driving will probably always make more sense in terms of optimizing cost and time.
The sad state of affairs is that trains in the US aren't competing with planes for passenger traffic, they're competing with cars. Make it faster than driving then focus on electrification and high speed (not "higher" speed).
Same could be said for the STL-KC route.