urbanSTL

addxb2 wrote: ↑

3:49 AM - Feb 11

East St. Louis after Missouri hikes sales tax to 20%.  
ignore that it turned the Arch into a gondola. That was unintentional but funny.
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Missing a sphere

After listening to the May 11th meeting, it doesn't seem likely that Illinois will move forward with this project. The steering committee is unimpressed with findings for ridership growth compared to cost. Lots of talk about comparable plans/projects (California, Florida, Colorado) but a significant pushback by many on committee that Illinois is not growing like any of those places (2% annual is best case projection for next few decades). They'll finish the report and provide to state legislatures to determine next steps. 

https://www.stlmag.com/business/il-high ... ojections/

This is probably for the best. Yearly ridership of ~2.9 million is in no way worth $44-$55 billion + a $250M yearly subsidy.

What they need to do is focus on improving time between Joliet and Chicago and Alton and St. Louis. I may be wrong but from what I understand, the number of intersections in the Chicago area greatly limit what frequency could be and also cause delays. While it would still cost a lot, fixing these issues would allow for more frequency and make the STL-CHI connection more competitive.

Improving the Alton-STL section could also make a regional train more realistic of a public transit option someday.

How much would it cost to build an L line that loops around the city? You could do so much with that amount of money.

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Sometimes I question if a high speed rail route between Chicago and StL would even be good for StL. Maybe I’m not thinking big enough picture but I’m not sure we would get net benefit of that today


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^I think it could be the beginning of something bigger, but it's a difficult first step. If we have a high speed rail line to Chicago I could see us once again becoming a serious contender as a secondary national rail hub. For reasons of health, well being, equity, and sustainability the country really needs a serious high speed rail network. The only way we get it is with serious investment from the federal government, but if we already have the beginnings of a regional network connecting St. Louis and Chicago I think that makes it just that much easier to build a number of logical extensions out from St. Louis, like Kansas City, Memphis, or possibly even Springfield towards Oklahoma City or Little Rock towards Dallas. Getting the line to Chicago is ever so much easier with federal support, but getting the hub out of federal spending is easier if the line to Chicago is already there. There's no guarantee federal funding models or transportation priorities will ever change, but a successful project that people enjoy somewhere that isn't the Northeast is probably the first step to changing perceptions enough to make things move forward.

StlAlex wrote: ↑

12:26 AM - Jun 23

https://www.stlmag.com/business/il-high ... ojections/

This is probably for the best. Yearly ridership of ~2.9 million is in no way worth $44-$55 billion + a $250M yearly subsidy.

What they need to do is focus on improving time between Joliet and Chicago and Alton and St. Louis. I may be wrong but from what I understand, the number of intersections in the Chicago area greatly limit what frequency could be and also cause delays. While it would still cost a lot, fixing these issues would allow for more frequency and make the STL-CHI connection more competitive.

Improving the Alton-STL section could also make a regional train more realistic of a public transit option someday.

How much would it cost to build an L line that loops around the city? You could do so much with that amount of money.

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I was thinking this too in theres a number of other projects that are needed and could help make a stronger HSR case when these other projects are done. 

Yes a lot of the issues are in the Chicago area and fixing those would allow higher frequency and more reliable service along with shaving time off the trip. Also that work will help increase freight rail capacity which could help pull trucks off the highways improving safety and congestion. Also recall the bottlenecks also prevent additional routes from starting like Chicago-Peoria (with possible extension to Springfield). Finally some of the proposed improvements for Chicago Union Station would allow through-running routes and larger maintenance space for Amtrak making it easier to have more available rolling stock.

Yes getting Alton-STL improved would be great for improving the route, increasing freight rail capacity, and increase ability for a regional rail system to start along with a potential Amtrak route going east.

Kirkwood needs a hotel of some sort within walking distance of the Kirkwood Amtrak station.

My wife and I just took the afternoon Amtrak train from Kirkwood to Washington, MO, and spent 2 nights in the Old Dutch Tavern and Hotel 3 blocks from the train station.  Old Dutch is a 3 story building from 1910 with a tavern on level 1, and an elevator and 14 very modern hotel rooms on the 2 floors above it.  It was a fun trip.  Checked out downtown shops and galleries, ate at several good restaurants across the street from the train station, and a couple within 3 blocks.  Hopped the 1 PM train back to Kirkwood 2 days later and walked home to our condo 2 blocks from the Kirkwood station.

I believe lots of Missourians would love do a similar multi-day trip to Kirkwood on a train.  Kirkwood has 50 food places within a 9 minute walk from train station downtown.  But no place to stay overnight without a car.  Commerce Bank at the corner of Adams and Kirkwood Blvd (Lindbergh) was razed to make way for an apartment complex that didn't happen.  So now we have a large lot on a prominent downtown corner just covered with grass.  

Kirkwood City Council -- Why not solicit for a hotel on that lot.  Or better yet, encourage multiple downtown old building owners to renovate their upper levels into hotel rooms, as Old Dutch did in Washington.  (There are other hotels and AirBnBs also within a few blocks of the train station in Washington, but none in Kirkwood.). Kirkwood has a financial problem now.  What better way to raise money than from existing sales taxes, but on visitors?

Here are a few photos from our 2-night trip to Washington, MO.

Isn't the city council the reason the apartment project went nowhere? I thought Kirkwood's government was like explicitly elected on a NIMBY platform.

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delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

4:48 AM - Jun 23

Sometimes I question if a high speed rail route between Chicago and StL would even be good for StL. Maybe I’m not thinking big enough picture but I’m not sure we would get net benefit of that today


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My opinion is a pretty strong no considering the whole goal is still stop short and have this wishful mentality of dense development would suddenly because of it.  

Agree a lot with what StlAlex has to say.   Still a long ways to go just to have Higher speed rail with Lincoln Service Corridor.   At same time those investments in Chicago and Metro East would be a much better overall for both Chicago, St Louis, Metro East and region as a whole.    Just frustrating that between Amtrak focusing on Northeast Corridor and current POTUS that Chicago Union Station & CREATE program was on cusp of some much needed Infrastructure Act Funds that have not materialized like should have.  Could have seen some of these improvements already happening.

I think the best thing they could do to improve rail between here and Chicago would be running more trains. 5 daily is honestly not great, especially the way they have 3 departures to Chicago scheduled before 8:30AM. They should add a late morning and later evening train at the very least.

PeterXCV wrote:I think the best thing they could do to improve rail between here and Chicago would be running more trains. 5 daily is honestly not great, especially the way they have 3 departures to Chicago scheduled before 8:30AM. They should add a late morning and later evening train at the very least.

5 trains is basically capacity for Amtrak between Joliet and Chicago because of how many rail-rail intersections there are. To schedule another train, theyd need all of those intersections clear 2 more times per day, which is not reasonably possible right now. So any 6th train would have unpredictable delays, moreso than they already have.

The only way to resolve this would be to build flyovers or find an alternative route, which would also be expensive and difficult.

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StlAlex wrote: ↑

2:39 PM - Jun 28

Isn't the city council the reason the apartment project went nowhere? I thought Kirkwood's government was like explicitly elected on a NIMBY platform.

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Last I could find, the council and the developer reached a compromise in November for apartments, but with waived requirement for first level retail along Adams, and allowing a parking garage along Adams, but with a facade to make it look more like apartments or something other than a parking garage.  This would be more in keeping with DPZ's recommendations to not have parking facing "A" streets.  I thought I had seen a "for sale" sign on the lot, but I drove by today and there is none.  One source said ground breaking should be this summer, but I'll believe it when I see it.

That still leave open the need for a hotel within walking distance of the Kirkwood Amtrak station.  DPZ suggested the parking lot right next to the station for a boutique hotel, but I don't think this council would give up the parking spaces.  An earlier proposal for a hotel along Jefferson next to (now closed) Mission Taco was rejected by the previous council.  

gary kreie wrote:

StlAlex wrote: ↑

2:39 PM - Jun 28

Isn't the city council the reason the apartment project went nowhere? I thought Kirkwood's government was like explicitly elected on a NIMBY platform.

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Last I could find, the council and the developer reached a compromise in November for apartments, but with waived requirement for first level retail along Adams, and allowing a parking garage along Adams, but with a facade to make it look more like apartments or something other than a parking garage.  This would be more in keeping with DPZ's recommendations to not have parking facing "A" streets.  I thought I had seen a "for sale" sign on the lot, but I drove by today and there is none.  One source said ground breaking should be this summer, but I'll believe it when I see it.

That still leave open the need for a hotel within walking distance of the Kirkwood Amtrak station.  DPZ suggested the parking lot right next to the station for a boutique hotel, but I don't think this council would give up the parking spaces.  An earlier proposal for a hotel along Jefferson next to (now closed) Mission Taco was rejected by the previous council.  

I unfortunately feel like Kirkwood will probably always suffer from being strangled by parking needs since public transit is beyond an afterthought and there is no political will or public interest for better transit.

Last week, my dad and I tried going to a place in Kirkwood for lunch but ended up skipping because we couldn't find parking.

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I hear folks say that. But I live just across the tracks from 4 Hands in Kirkwood. There is almost always free parking along Clay and Madison streets. And the free lot next to (and across from) the police station on Madison. Also the big parking garages behind Station Plaza Apartments and Station Plaza Condos off West Madison are free to the public and almost never full.

For some reason, folks are reluctant to park on the South side of the railroad tracks and walk one block over the tracks. Or two. Also big lots north of Adams used in the daytime for AT&T and global foods are always available free at night.

Guess folks are used to strip malls where you can park right in front of stores.


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gary kreie wrote:I hear folks say that. But I live just across the tracks from 4 Hands in Kirkwood. There is almost always free parking along Clay and Madison streets. And the free lot next to (and across from) the police station on Madison. Also the big parking garages behind Station Plaza Apartments and Station Plaza Condos off West Madison are free to the public and almost never full.

For some reason, folks are reluctant to park on the South side of the railroad tracks and walk one block over the tracks. Or two. Also big lots north of Adams used in the daytime for AT&T and global foods are always available free at night.

Guess folks are used to strip malls where you can park right in front of stores.


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I promise you there was none. We drove around a couple of the surface lots and there was no street parking. I wasn't aware the garages are public, so didn't look there.

Remember half of the train station parking is unavailable because of the ongoing renovation.

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As I tell my friends, there is unlimited free parking in downtown Kirkwood if you are willing to walk one block. Look south of the tracks off Madison street, lot, or parking garages for restaurants along Argonne. Or North of Adam’s for restaurants along Jefferson. Then walk one block.


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StlAlex wrote: ↑

7:33 PM - Jun 28

PeterXCV wrote:I think the best thing they could do to improve rail between here and Chicago would be running more trains. 5 daily is honestly not great, especially the way they have 3 departures to Chicago scheduled before 8:30AM. They should add a late morning and later evening train at the very least.

5 trains is basically capacity for Amtrak between Joliet and Chicago because of how many rail-rail intersections there are. To schedule another train, theyd need all of those intersections clear 2 more times per day, which is not reasonably possible right now. So any 6th train would have unpredictable delays, moreso than they already have.

The only way to resolve this would be to build flyovers or find an alternative route, which would also be expensive and difficult.

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I recall one of the plans is to move the Joliet to Chicago segment to a different rail line that doesn't have the bottlenecks. But it would also involve needing to rework some tracks near Union Station Chicago. 

Also there will need to be more rolling stock to increase capacity on this route and in other routes. 

If they did get this done it could really up ridership numbers since shaving more time off and adding consistency in time it takes will make it a stronger option. In addition, this starts to make onward travel from Chicago more feasible as an option by having reliable connections and likely added frequency on those routes too.

There will be a point that Kirkwood will need to start charging for street parking. Perhaps that point is already here but doing so would be very politically costly.

Completely agree that a downtown hotel should be a priority for the city council. Visitors will patronize local businesses in addition to the tax revenue generated by their hotel stay.

I’m sorry but have to comment on our self-proclaimed urbanist Sir Alex not wanting to walk an extra couple blocks for lunch in Kirkwood when one of thee major tenants of urbanism is WALKING just makes me chuckle. 

And cue the insults….

His experience does reflect that of many though, especially those visiting downtown Kirkwood. Just read the comments on a Gadfly article, plenty of non-urbanists living in Kirkwood

It’s very easy to find parking. You just have to walk a bit, like a true urbanist does.

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

2:43 PM - Jun 30

It’s very easy to find parking. You just have to walk a bit, like a true urbanist does.

But imagine if you didn’t have to park at all and could easily access DTK via Metrolink, which think is ultimately the point he is making.

Debaliviere91 wrote:

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

2:43 PM - Jun 30

It’s very easy to find parking. You just have to walk a bit, like a true urbanist does.

But imagine if you didn’t have to park at all and could easily access DTK via Metrolink, which think is ultimately the point he is making.

This is, and I would to to Kirkwood way more than I currently do if I didn't have to drive.

And I have said repeatedly that we drove around both sides of the tracks (we actually started on the south side) and were unable to find parking. The closest would have probably been the preforming arts center or the strip mall, and at that point we may as wall move on to plan B, which is what we did.

I have actually biked ti Kirkwood before to avoid driving.

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