^ disregard my comment... it was in response to a since deleted post by someone else.
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It was decided at the EWG workshop on October 30th....they voted on the 10 principles to guide the new plan and how much weight each will carry....to clarify; preserve and maintain system scored #1 for small, medium and large scale projects. Good news is that Invest in transit scored in top 3 but preserve and maintain still will hold the most points. So a large scale light rail could get points in other categories but again it will get 0 in the one that carries the most points....then you have to deal with the perception of why are you doing a $1b+ rail or highway project when your #1 priority is to maintain the current system. In late jan/early feb is when the 5th and final workshop will be held and projects scored. Can't wait! 
Gotcha. So that's a very recent happening, which explains the confusion I was having. I still hope they'll be able to work it out.
Of course this underscores another issue I sort of had, which is that it's very hard to follow the whos, whens, whats, and hows of our regional prioritization. I'm not saying they were hiding this—I'm sure I could have known more if I'd really searched, but I had no idea something like that was going on on October 30th.
I dunno. Just bothers me a bit.
Of course this underscores another issue I sort of had, which is that it's very hard to follow the whos, whens, whats, and hows of our regional prioritization. I'm not saying they were hiding this—I'm sure I could have known more if I'd really searched, but I had no idea something like that was going on on October 30th.
I dunno. Just bothers me a bit.
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It kinda continues the A7 workshops but for the one on oct 30th and the last one, people from Illinois were present too since this is a regional plan. It's not really "public" but more for transportation steakholders. About 50 people were there; to name a few scott was there, Eddie roth, guy from stl county executives office, st.charles county transportation rep, rich Bradley (city bps), city airport director, Todd Antoine from grg, new trailnet director, metro chief long range planner, some other grg and trailnet staff, MoDOT planning staff from stl and jeff city HQ, EWG staff, public works directors from a few cities/ counties, reps for ports ect. good mix of all modes of transportation and orgz
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...isn't it obvious that the priority should be on maintaining our significant transportation investment. Maintenance is just part of the life cycle of investment and would be far less onerous if we built up instead of out. The real question is where we invest future dollars. Highway or transit.
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Good thing about these plans is while they are are 30 year plans they do get updated every 4 years and the mix of decision makers changes...tho that's not always good, no stable plan if it keeps changing every 4 years
^^I agree. Prioritizing maintenance doesn't preclude future expansion. It actually sounds like a prudent policy: maintain what you have and expand when and where you can without compromising the integrity of the system.
St. Louis City & County voters want Metrolink expanded (1997 1/4 cent tax Tax & Prop A), and Missouri consumers don't want to foot the bill for highway expansion (Amendment 7). It seems a lot of the necessary constituents already have the right interests and could be organized to support a N-S project. Money from Prop A could currently be used to fund expansion, it's just a matter of County voters pressuring pols to deploy it. Also, Prop A doesn't have a sunset. So eventually the County will be reimbursed from loans to cover Cross County expenses and they'll lose a primary excuse for not investing in transit infrastructure.
St. Louis City & County voters want Metrolink expanded (1997 1/4 cent tax Tax & Prop A), and Missouri consumers don't want to foot the bill for highway expansion (Amendment 7). It seems a lot of the necessary constituents already have the right interests and could be organized to support a N-S project. Money from Prop A could currently be used to fund expansion, it's just a matter of County voters pressuring pols to deploy it. Also, Prop A doesn't have a sunset. So eventually the County will be reimbursed from loans to cover Cross County expenses and they'll lose a primary excuse for not investing in transit infrastructure.
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It all comes down to money and weather there is any to spend. The 10 prinicples were the same as last time when the plan was updated, what changes is how much each is worth and that depends on the funding situation, for the current plan(one being updated now) there isnt any money...maybe things will be different during the 2019 update. I'm afraid this time around all these big projects will be stuck in the "illustritive" section, the unfunding project section
Perhaps the Ferguson Commission could recommend the North-South Line. That might add a lot more weight to it.
I'm a big supporter of metro link and argue that it's an asset, but it's hard for me to support a north south route. While in other cities I think one can argue a station brings increased property values and nearby development, I don't see ANY evidence of this in St. Louis. I hate to say it, but it doesn't seem to have helped as much as people thought or would have wanted it to. Look at the DeBaliviere area, ground zero for metro link, no new development nearby, adjacent to the station. That entire street has had negligible development and investment. I wish it weren't this way, and perhaps I'm wrong, so argue to me how this has helped spur development or why I should support a north south line.
I think we need apps that show when busses and trains arrive etc to boost ridership and start there, but I just don't see a n/s line making sense yet. Am I wrong? Has a metro station helped or hurt nearby retail businesses? Ask them. I have.
I think we need apps that show when busses and trains arrive etc to boost ridership and start there, but I just don't see a n/s line making sense yet. Am I wrong? Has a metro station helped or hurt nearby retail businesses? Ask them. I have.
I've said this before, but I don't think you can draw conclusions about about an incomplete or poorly designed system and then use it as an excuse to not complete or better design the system.
Nothing about our current transit system could possibly lead to the success that a fully functional transit system might. Our current system—and this is light rail and busses—is NOT effective. Too much of the urban area does not have access to transit at reasonable frequencies. And until they do, then people won't use it to the level they could. And until people use it to the level they could, development isn't going to happen to the degree that it could.
Nothing about our current transit system could possibly lead to the success that a fully functional transit system might. Our current system—and this is light rail and busses—is NOT effective. Too much of the urban area does not have access to transit at reasonable frequencies. And until they do, then people won't use it to the level they could. And until people use it to the level they could, development isn't going to happen to the degree that it could.
So you are saying that there is no evidence whatsoever that shows light rail has helped to stabilize and start to expand the central corridor? And you are basing this conclusion off of an incomplete analysis of one street and conversations with local business owners? And you are saying this just as millions of dollars in development has been announced in Clayton and millions more in the Grove?jcity wrote:I'm a big supporter of metro link and argue that it's an asset, but it's hard for me to support a north south route. While in other cities I think one can argue a station brings increased property values and nearby development, I don't see ANY evidence of this in St. Louis. I hate to say it, but it doesn't seem to have helped as much as people thought or would have wanted it to. Look at the DeBaliviere area, ground zero for metro link, no new development nearby, adjacent to the station. That entire street has had negligible development and investment. I wish it weren't this way, and perhaps I'm wrong, so argue to me how this has helped spur development or why I should support a north south line.
I think we need apps that show when busses and trains arrive etc to boost ridership and start there, but I just don't see a n/s line making sense yet. Am I wrong? Has a metro station helped or hurt nearby retail businesses? Ask them. I have.
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It's a hard thing to say with confidence either way whether the Metrolink has had the desired effect of spurring development. One could say look at all the squandered potential where Metrolink sites sit with tons of vacant lots around them, particularly north county and east St. Louis locations. Then again for all we know without the Metrolink these places could be much worse.
The one thing I think IS clear is that the business community in St. Louis doesn't value Metrolink access as much as we think they should. Then downtown stops, as well as Sunnen and Wellston should have filled up years ago. Without significant commuter destinations the motivation for people to live in close proximity to Metrolink is significantly diminished. This MAY be changing as demonstrated by the recent push for a CORTEX Metrolink stop. We'll probably know in another 5-10 years just how much it has changed.
The one thing I think IS clear is that the business community in St. Louis doesn't value Metrolink access as much as we think they should. Then downtown stops, as well as Sunnen and Wellston should have filled up years ago. Without significant commuter destinations the motivation for people to live in close proximity to Metrolink is significantly diminished. This MAY be changing as demonstrated by the recent push for a CORTEX Metrolink stop. We'll probably know in another 5-10 years just how much it has changed.
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based on the comment section of stltoday for the N/S expansion story; good luck getting anything done.
I know that the comment section on their is normally reserved for the crazies but these crazies will show up against this
I know that the comment section on their is normally reserved for the crazies but these crazies will show up against this
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Is there a map illustrating this proposal?goat314 wrote:Coalition seeks MetroLink north-south route through St. Louis
By Ken Leiser kleiser@post-dispatch.com 314-340-8215
A fledgling group is trying to breathe new life into a more-than-$1 billion idea that would knit together some of the largest pockets of public transit riders with a MetroLink line to run north and south through St. Louis.
Among its members are former Missouri Sen. Joan Bray of University City, St. Louis Alderman Scott Ogilvie, and former East-West Gateway Council of Governments executive Les Sterman. Many of the group’s members were involved in helping defeat the Constitutional Amendment 7 transportation sales tax at the polls this summer. Its main target was highways and bridges.
link: http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/al ... 276ac.html
The Post Dispatch comment section is overwhelmingly filled with scared white people from South and West County. Also, Carol Size saying that literally every article by the "all white liberal editorial board" is a total lie written by the Democratic Party.dbInSouthCity wrote:based on the comment section of stltoday for the N/S expansion story; good luck getting anything done.
I know that the comment section on their is normally reserved for the crazies but these crazies will show up against this
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Don't forget scared white people from Jefferson County, Franklin County, St. Charles County, Madison County, St. Claire County, and Monroe County.Ebsy wrote:The Post Dispatch comment section is overwhelmingly filled with scared white people from South and West County. Also, Carol Size saying that literally every article by the "all white liberal editorial board" is a total lie written by the Democratic Party.dbInSouthCity wrote:based on the comment section of stltoday for the N/S expansion story; good luck getting anything done.
I know that the comment section on their is normally reserved for the crazies but these crazies will show up against this
Anyway.... like I just asked, does anyone have a map illustrating the proposal for the Flo Valley CC -> Bayless N/S Metro Line?
The fact that most of them can't type a coherent sentence without using the word thug at least twice, along with libtard and some spiel about Obama and how he has destroyed America, RIP, should tell us most of what we need to know about them. I especially liked the guy who was like, "No matter what you do I'm never going to use it." Well with that sort of attitude, we could only outperform expectations.
There's a map on the first page of this thread.
There's more info in the two other threads about the N/S line linked in the second post.
There's more info in the two other threads about the N/S line linked in the second post.
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I saw the map on the first page of this thread, but its northern terminus appears to be at the intersection of Goodfellow and Stratford, not in Ferguson at the Flo Valley CC like the proposal mentioned in the article, so I assumed it's of something different.quincunx wrote:There's a map on the first page of this thread.
There's more info in the two other threads about the N/S line linked in the second post.
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^ that was just from a particular planning document.... the full route would extend on up West Flo and terminating around 270.
Thanks for the above. Yes, that map is just a little easier to read version of what East West Gateway has produced from a couple of studies. There's a lot of background here: http://www.ewgateway.org/progproj/nssid ... estudy.htm
Its important to note the routes within the city, depicted above, have had substantial analysis done in a number of studies, and are probably unlikely to change much, with the exception of a few details downtown near the current Civic Center station / Amtrak, the routing from there to Washington Av, and perhaps the route north from downtown to Natural Bridge. The City alignment I would consider largely finalized. This is primarily a street running system very much like the just completed Green Line in Minneapolis / St. Paul.
The County portion of Northside / Southside has had less analysis done, and its older. So particularly the north alignment would need to be looked at again as it makes its way to Florissant Valley CC.
The folks trying to push this back to the top of the regional priority list (like myself) aren't dreaming up a new alignment. This is a very "real" project that has had a lot of groundwork has already completed by MoDOT, City of StL., Metro, and EWG.
Its also just very clearly the best transit project on paper within the region. It creates a real light-rail network, serves the densest part of the region (south St. Louis) and the most transit dependent part of the region (north St. Louis City & County.) It gives hundreds of thousands of people much better MetroLink access, and is a substantial investment in communities that need and want it. The goal is to define this as a top priority for the region. The next step is a full Environmental Impact Study, that would then qualify the project for federal funding. That might run $10 million, its a big study, but something City & County could jointly fund if we make it a priority.
Scott Ogilvie
Its important to note the routes within the city, depicted above, have had substantial analysis done in a number of studies, and are probably unlikely to change much, with the exception of a few details downtown near the current Civic Center station / Amtrak, the routing from there to Washington Av, and perhaps the route north from downtown to Natural Bridge. The City alignment I would consider largely finalized. This is primarily a street running system very much like the just completed Green Line in Minneapolis / St. Paul.
The County portion of Northside / Southside has had less analysis done, and its older. So particularly the north alignment would need to be looked at again as it makes its way to Florissant Valley CC.
The folks trying to push this back to the top of the regional priority list (like myself) aren't dreaming up a new alignment. This is a very "real" project that has had a lot of groundwork has already completed by MoDOT, City of StL., Metro, and EWG.
Its also just very clearly the best transit project on paper within the region. It creates a real light-rail network, serves the densest part of the region (south St. Louis) and the most transit dependent part of the region (north St. Louis City & County.) It gives hundreds of thousands of people much better MetroLink access, and is a substantial investment in communities that need and want it. The goal is to define this as a top priority for the region. The next step is a full Environmental Impact Study, that would then qualify the project for federal funding. That might run $10 million, its a big study, but something City & County could jointly fund if we make it a priority.
Scott Ogilvie
I would not let the STL today comments bring you down. The STL today comments always were a right wing place on the internet. If you made all your predictions on stl today comments. You would think in 2012 Obama would have lost and city arch river tax would have failed.
Would they drop a traffic lane or the on street parking on stroads like Natural Bridge? Or did the study not get into that detail? I read that's been a to do with the green line on University Ave.
From page 200 (pdf page 202)
If the region commits to building N/S, it also needs to commit to putting housing and jobs along the corridor.
From page 200 (pdf page 202)
No we need to expand housing and employment at transit stationsObjectives:
• Encourage convenient corridor transit services to residents within the study area by
improving feeder bus routes to existing and proposed transit stations, and by expanding
and improving parking facilities at transit stations and other park-and-ride facilities.
If the region commits to building N/S, it also needs to commit to putting housing and jobs along the corridor.