urbanSTL

^ NGA director therefore Obama

Sirshankalot, I would say STL would be 0 for 3 if they lose out on NGA. The Detroit bailout with sale of Chrysler to Fiat pretty much guaranteed two STL auto plants were shuttered for the sake of Detroit. NGA would be a hard blow and the federal retraining grants, lid grant, loop trolley grant and Boyle metrolink don't even come close to the long term impacts and payroll hits of first losing two auto plants & associated suppliers (three if you include Ford but a private business decision) and then if city loses NGA all for political favors.

Ok, will get off my political commentary of current administration doing STL no favors.

Sometimes I wonder if national people want to bury STL for various "social" reasons....

Dweebe's attitude is spot on.

arch city wrote: While there may be attempts to influence and pressure the GSA's decision, it seems based on reports I've read, the GSA in Kansas City will be making the final decision. I find that strange considering that Illinois is not within GSA-KC jurisdiction.

Hey, maybe that will be a reason for them to choose a MO site!

MarkHaversham wrote:

arch city wrote: While there may be attempts to influence and pressure the GSA's decision, it seems based on reports I've read, the GSA in Kansas City will be making the final decision. I find that strange considering that Illinois is not within GSA-KC jurisdiction.

Hey, maybe that will be a reason for them to choose a MO site!

Based on help we've received from KC folks lately, they will recommend putting the NGA in Los Angeles.

gary kreie wrote:

MarkHaversham wrote:

arch city wrote: While there may be attempts to influence and pressure the GSA's decision, it seems based on reports I've read, the GSA in Kansas City will be making the final decision. I find that strange considering that Illinois is not within GSA-KC jurisdiction.

Hey, maybe that will be a reason for them to choose a MO site!

Based on help we've received from KC folks lately, they will recommend putting the NGA in Los Angeles.

That would be funny.

Scott Air Force Base isn't going anywhere.........anywhere.......even if it doesn't snag the NGA campus.

They've done quite a lot of building at Scott in recent years - including the $100-million USTRANSCOM facility and just in 2014 the $65-million Defense Information Systems Agency facility complete with MILLIONS in road improvements.

Scott doesn't need the NGA campus. Additionally, everything in metro St. Louis dealing with the military doesn't have to be at Scott. Maybe St. Louis City (or County) should have gone after DISA. Perhaps the Missouri side should now vigorously pursue projects for Missouri from now on.

Furthermore, the NGA's beginning history is rooted in St. Louis City.

And last, moving to the metro east will likely create thousands of additional people crossing into Illinois - clogging bridges, creating congestion, longer commute times in the region and pollution. If they switch to north St. Louis the site is only THREE miles from the current site. Moving to Illinois is like 25 miles.

^My cousin works for the NGA and he lives in Lindenwood Park so that is 1.

I'm not sure there is validity to arguing the Metro East needs the NGA more than the city. Have you been drinking the tap water in East Carondelet?

The reality is that the Metro East, which is currently declining in population with the rest of Illinois, is going to need gains if the city ever hopes to be re-centered in the region.

Huh? More so than North city? Come on now.

I think the point is that the city can only be the center if there's something on both sides of it.

So if we can just get all the jobs and people to move to Shiloh and Wentzville in an evenly distributed manner, Downtown and the City will be perfectly centered and will undoubtedly thrive!

shimmy wrote:This is irrelevant, especially to the government. The history of the Army's Armor branch was famously entrenched at Fort Knox, didn't stop them from moving it to Fort Benning to combine with the Infantry for cost and convenience. The history of the Army's Transportation Corps was centered at Fort Eustis from its inception, didn't stop the Army from moving it to Fort Lee to combine with the Quartermaster Corps for cost and convenience. These are just two examples, but both of them are more significant than the NGA.

It isn't irrelevant. Furthermore, the NGA campus IS NOT as strategic as Army bases and Corps shifts.

Anyway, history means a lot - even with the government. If history was "irrelevent" the Army Corps and GSA in Kansas City would be looking to put the campus in the Chicago or Kansas City regions as St. Louis always seem to get the short end of the stick these days. Again, per my assumption, the government and its scouters have decided to keep the NGA within the St. Louis region because the NGA is entrenched in St. Louis on every level - the existing skilled workforce, the history, geography etc.

shimmy wrote:I'd be interested to see the number of NGA employees who actually live in the city. If their demographics represent the regional demographics at all, then the majority of their employees are going to commute into the city - which makes the short commute and pollution arguments irrelevant. Commuting across the river would be going in the opposite direction of most commuting traffic (into Illinois in the morning, out in the evening), so I don't think congestion would be an issue.

Think about it.........Downtown St. Louis/East St. Louis arguably are the center of the region. You could even push the center to Clayton. But one thing I know for sure is that SAFB/Mascoutah is not the center.

With 3,000 employees currently at NGA West, I am more than sure most of them DO NOT live in St. Louis City. But I am willing to bet that most of them DO NOT live in Illinois either. Either way, the vast majority of employees are likely commuting from all over the region INTO the City of St. Louis, which is the center.

I'd be interested in seeing how many NGA employees actually live in Shiloh or Mascoutah . No doubt an additional 3,000 people on the roads will add to traffic congestion going INTO Illinois. And contrary to popular belief, there are thousands of people who work in Illinois, but live in Missouri.

Moving 3,000 jobs from St. Louis City to Mascoutah will definitely add to regional commute times. And with cars (even car poolers) on the roads for longer periods - more congestion. That was my point. If an employee lives in Chesterfield and works at SAFB, commuter times will double. Even MetroLink users would add an hour or so from downtown St. Louis to Shiloh. And keep in mind too that gas won't remain at 3 cent a gallon for long. That is going to cost families money.

As stated, longer commute times lead to pollution, which is why the EPA has been on cities like L.A., Houston, Atlanta etc. St. Louis has been an EPA target for pollution and smog. Another Link: Clean Air St. Louis

shimmy wrote:It's also likely that many employees who currently reside in the county and Missouri burbs would relocate to the Metro East.

Really? No offense, but the jobs aren't going to Chicago or Atlanta. While there's potential for some relocations, I wouldn't bet on too many. People choose where they live based on school district, amenities, retail, medical care, misc. services etc. etc. Uprooting isn't as easy as you think.

shimmy wrote:They also underscore why I'm never satisfied with Scott AFB being safe or "not needing" anything else.

Nothing with the government is guaranteed as you suggest, right? So based on your position, there's no guarantee SAFB will stay open with or without the NGA.

shimmy wrote:The reality is that the Metro East, which is currently declining in population with the rest of Illinois, is going to need gains if the city ever hopes to be re-centered in the region.

Taking 3,000 jobs from St. Louis City out to Scott Air Force Base is not going to help re-center the region. That assertion is Chicken Soup for the Soul. You're trying to pull the wool - no offense intended. But let's be real. It's helping to create more sprawl in Tornado Alley. The region is sprawled enough, which is why there's a donut effect. Having jobs in St. Louis City or even the immediate East St. Louis area - helps to re-center it. Not jobs at SAFB or in Clayton.

shimmy wrote:Until the population is more balanced in the region then the city is going to continue to lose out on corporate headquarters to the county.

That's disingenuous. If you are going to debate this, debate wisely. Are you not paying attention to what you are saying? You say, the city will continue to lose headquarters to the county until the region's population is more balanced, yet, you are in favor of Illinois snatching 3,000 jobs from downtown St. Louis, which is practically the center of the region. You are also okay with people relocating to exburbs of Illinois from the exburbs of Missouri. Come on.

shimmy wrote:And honestly, Scott is about the only thing the Metro East has going for it now. The blue collar river bottom communities are coming onto hard times (even more so) with the closings, whether permanent or "indefinite", of large employers like U.S. Steel and Olin Brass. Illinois is such an absolute disaster financially that bluff communities like Edwardsville and Collinsville have an almost impossible task of attracting and growing corporate jobs. Scott provides a much-needed center for growth for the Metro East.

Look, I understand Illinois is having a hard time with depopulation, budget problems etc. I want the best for the Metro East. At the end of the day, however, St. Louis City should not become the sacrificial lamb because Illinois is struggling. St. Louis City in many ways is struggling with some of the same issues. This haranguing between the states could potentially create a divide similar to what is happening in metro Kansas City.

Overall, the problem is that metro area leaders are inept. The region as a whole is having problems with creating jobs at (or about or above) the national average. That's a failure of leadership on both sides of the region. Collectively, these boneheads should be able to do better.

Until then, cities within the region are going to compete and cannabilize jobs and shifting populations. Meanwhile, the region as a whole will continue its slow growth rate. Charlotte, Nashville, Austin and even Cincinnati and Kansas City are nipping on St. Louis' heels. Why? Because it's easy to rob and steal jobs, tax bases and populations from another local city than it is to formulate a common growth plan of action for the region.

Why can't tech jobs be pursued for the Metro East, plant sciences, financial services, health care. Why can't the Metro East go after other industries and other STEM jobs?

The Metro East area is staying largely blue collar because the leadership is obviously inept at coming up with solid job growth strategies - just like its Missouri brethren - although Missouri seems to be doing a little better. Where's the Metro East's CORTEX district? Why is East St. Louis still looking like a post-industrial hellhole? Where's an Advanced Manufacturing or Nanotechnology district for the Metro East? Any type of innovation district?! There are none.

Why? INEPT LEADERSHIP! PROVINCIALISM! And RACISM!

People move closer to their jobs all the time, even if it's a relatively marginal move.

People aren't going to move. Maybe a small, small fraction of that 3,000. Why would people move just to save themselves 20 minutes in commute especially when you lay out all of the disadvantages right now?...

The reality is that the Metro East has a lot of inherent disadvantages when trying to compete. 1. As covered, it's in Illinois. 2. It's a downstate Illinois community. 3. Historic emphasis and reliability on industrial/blue collar jobs. 4. Being 1/6 of the population for a metro area that isn't even in the state.

This is just musical chairs if they move NGA to Scott. Its takes funds from the City and moves them to Illinois. What net regional benefit does it provide? How does moving a lot of jobs from south city to Illinois benefit a person in Webster, or the CWE, or St. Charles, or Chesterfield? I fail to see the benefit. It'll hurt day time retail in parts of Soulard and benefit some far out area in Illinois that most of the region will likely never see or visit.

So, the Metro East should not try to pursue something that would strengthen its largest employer and biggest economic engine because it'll hurt a few Soulard businesses?

It's more than just hurting businesses as you are well aware. But Yes. Yes, the Metro East should not poach jobs from the city. It benefits the far Metro East and not really anyone else.

Are you in favor of Maryland Height's building a huge retail area to just rob retail from Chesterfield? Are you in favor of building more malls out west to the detriment of the Mills Mall, Crestwood, etc.? You must be by the arguments you're making.

Are you from the Metro East? Because seems only people that want NGA n the Metro east are those in Illinois. The County and MO both back the North City plan.