If that's the case, why should anything go there? I am sure the area is going to be remediated before anything goes there.roger wyoming II wrote:I could be wrong, but I suspect residential wouldn't be allowed at this site due to environmental contamination.
Yes. If designed and built with some urban form aspects, absolutely.dweebe wrote:Would you really want to live there?
Atlanta is about to build a similar sized center (175,000 sf) IN Buckhead - of all places. It will include 225-units and a three acre urban park. The community has been advocating for more residential units and underground parking. A big tenant prospect is Wal-Mart.
Check out Atlanta's Lindbergh Place here and here.
- 8,155
The extent of remediation required often is stricter if its residential.arch city wrote:If that's the case, why should anything go there? I am sure the area is going to be remediated before anything goes there.roger wyoming II wrote:I could be wrong, but I suspect residential wouldn't be allowed at this site due to environmental contamination.
It's not the space. It's that to one side you have a double decker interstate highway (I-64), multilane boulevards on two other sides (Grand and Forest Park Parkway) and possibly an IKEA (with its acres of parking on the other side.arch city wrote:Yes. If designed and built with some urban form aspects, absolutely.dweebe wrote:Would you really want to live there?
Atlanta is about to build a similar sized center (175,000 sf) IN Buckhead - of all places. It will include 225-units and a three acre urban park. The community has been advocating for more residential units and underground parking. A big tenant prospect is Wal-Mart.
Check out Atlanta's Lindbergh Place here and here.
Any other spot I'd agree with you in a moment: but not on this pretty isolated island.
It's good that you clarified yourself. I see your point clearer. To add to your point, when you add the sounds of MetroLink nearby - it is a lot of noise and traffic to consider.dweebe wrote:It's not the space. It's that to one side you have a double decker interstate highway (I-64), multilane boulevards on two other sides (Grand and Forest Park Parkway) and possibly an IKEA (with its acres of parking on the other side.
Any other spot I'd agree with you in a moment: but not on this pretty isolated island.
However, such is already the case at the intersection of Brentwood at I-64. Plus, big cities such Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Chicago, Jersey City, New York etc. all have noise and traffic congestion near high-profile areas. A lot of traffic and noise problems could be addressed with smart traffic signals and new adaptive traffic signal control technology.
Traffic and noise is just a natural part of living in urban centers - which brings me to my next point - Pace could easily build residential structures that are almost soundproof as well as situate a residential garage entrance and exit in such a way that residents have little interface with area traffic. It's done all over the country.
Do you know how busy Buckhead is - not to mention how ritzy - with all kinds of high-rise, retail center and commercial development. It's crazy. There is no "isolated island" because developments such as the one I speak are going up all across the country. I've even given an example.
Trust me, I want development in St. Louis, but not just another ordinary big-box center in this area of town. I like Pace. But Pace has a great opportunity to build something more special - in my opinion. Come on. This project is proposed for the greatest inner city corridor in the Midwest outside of Chicago. It deserves a better vision.
I just hope this is the first draft for Midtown Station.
I commented on this under the front page article. The buildings in the rendering are positioned almost exactly like Brentwood Promenade. They just moved the docks and put a sidewalk between Target and Bed Bath & Beyond. I-64 would replace the Pet smart/Trader Joes side. Definitely a missed opportunity for some good mixed use. It is isolated now, but with some good design, that could change. I'm thinking big blank walls will be facing Forest Park Pkwy.
- 11K
That's kind of the neighborhood next to the retail development right?arch city wrote:Yes. If designed and built with some urban form aspects, absolutely.dweebe wrote:Would you really want to live there?
Atlanta is about to build a similar sized center (175,000 sf) IN Buckhead - of all places. It will include 225-units and a three acre urban park. The community has been advocating for more residential units and underground parking. A big tenant prospect is Wal-Mart.
Check out Atlanta's Lindbergh Place here and here.
Yeah. Here is an aerial shot from Google satellite.Alex Ihnen wrote:That's kind of the neighborhood next to the retail development right?
You make some decent points, but the reality is St. Louis is a slow growth, mid-size region with plenty of empty lots in places that are a lot more desirable than a site backed up to a 50 year old double decker highway. Most people will also experience Midtown Station from Vandeventer or FPP and I personally think this proposal will add to the streetscape and overall urbanity of the area.arch city wrote:It's good that you clarified yourself. I see your point clearer. To add to your point, when you add the sounds of MetroLink nearby - it is a lot of noise and traffic to consider.dweebe wrote:It's not the space. It's that to one side you have a double decker interstate highway (I-64), multilane boulevards on two other sides (Grand and Forest Park Parkway) and possibly an IKEA (with its acres of parking on the other side.
Any other spot I'd agree with you in a moment: but not on this pretty isolated island.
However, such is already the case at the intersection of Brentwood at I-64. Plus, big cities such Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Chicago, Jersey City, New York etc. all have noise and traffic congestion near high-profile areas. A lot of traffic and noise problems could be addressed with smart traffic signals and new adaptive traffic signal control technology.
Traffic and noise is just a natural part of living in urban centers - which brings me to my next point - Pace could easily build residential structures that are almost soundproof as well as situate a residential garage entrance and exit in such a way that residents have little interface with area traffic. It's done all over the country.
Do you know how busy Buckhead is - not to mention how ritzy - with all kinds of high-rise, retail center and commercial development. It's crazy. There is no "isolated island" because developments such as the one I speak are going up all across the country. I've even given an example.
Trust me, I want development in St. Louis, but not just another ordinary big-box center in this area of town. I like Pace. But Pace has a great opportunity to build something more special - in my opinion. Come on. This project is proposed for the greatest inner city corridor in the Midwest outside of Chicago. It deserves a better vision.
I just hope this is the first draft for Midtown Station.
More basic/everyday retail in the city (Walmart, Target, Home Depot, Best Buy etc.) will only add to the livability of the city and make marketing/financing true mixed use projects with real density more feasible. I cant count how many people have told me that they don't fear crime or bad schools, but simply disdain the lack of convenience in St. Louis city living. I actually think that is another big factor that either deters or drives people out of the city. Some of the coolest neighborhoods don't have the retail you can find in the county. Seems like Chicago, Dallas, Atlanta, DC have all done a better job providing convenience in city living.
- 1,320
Possible signs that Pace is thinking urban:
1. They put the loading docks on the parking lot side;
2. They have the right setbacks;
3. They align the parking entrance to Duncan Ave;
4. There seems to be less parking than I'd expect;
5. Their promotional materials highlight access to light rail;
6. They are remediating an underused industrial site.
I think the test will be how they handle the Forest Pak Ave facades. Windows?
But is it it mixed-use? One could argue that it is:
A. This project is part of a mixed use development called Midtown.
B. The developer laid out the plans in the nineteenth century.
C. This "Midtown" will include new high-density apartment buildings directly across the street from the stores.
D. Three residences remain next door, on the same block.
E. There is a micro-brewery directly across Sarah.
F. There is light rail and a possible streetcar a few blocks away.
G. CORTEX plans indicate residential with street level retail directly west one block on Duncan.
H. Across the street to the north are lofts, a theological seminary, a bar and a non-profit building-supply shop.
I don't know -- while I will always prefer greater density -- to some people, this could seem pretty mixed-use.
1. They put the loading docks on the parking lot side;
2. They have the right setbacks;
3. They align the parking entrance to Duncan Ave;
4. There seems to be less parking than I'd expect;
5. Their promotional materials highlight access to light rail;
6. They are remediating an underused industrial site.
I think the test will be how they handle the Forest Pak Ave facades. Windows?
But is it it mixed-use? One could argue that it is:
A. This project is part of a mixed use development called Midtown.
B. The developer laid out the plans in the nineteenth century.
C. This "Midtown" will include new high-density apartment buildings directly across the street from the stores.
D. Three residences remain next door, on the same block.
E. There is a micro-brewery directly across Sarah.
F. There is light rail and a possible streetcar a few blocks away.
G. CORTEX plans indicate residential with street level retail directly west one block on Duncan.
H. Across the street to the north are lofts, a theological seminary, a bar and a non-profit building-supply shop.
I don't know -- while I will always prefer greater density -- to some people, this could seem pretty mixed-use.
^ I can see Arch City and Goat314 respective points but really think it is stretch that PACE is doing something with an urban context. They are proposing nothing more than a retail box store center on a brownfield that so happens to be in Midtown. Calling it Midtown doesn't make it urban. Heck, the rendering can't even go out of its way to put sidewalks on Forest Park Ave.
Will it benefit the immediate and expanding under served community as Goat314 notes? absolutely yes!! Is it underwhelming in a corridor that is seeing infill and density coming from Cortex plan to infill to Bruce Mills building on Euclid to Opus proposal to Pharmacy college proposal to build out on existing lots? absolutely yes!!
In that respect, I wish PACE embrace the opportunity by at least making some changes.
1) If it is Target store they are going after, Why not full size Target that incorporates the under store/underground parking like you see with its Hampton Store? I think it will fill out the corner much better, fit better with its surroundings and minimize the surface parking. City Target to me doesn't make sense and every increasing grocery store options in the area is filling voids
2) Why be in a rush to develop the outlying parcels along Vande? Talk about a greet mixed use location to add some retail as well as residential units, incorporate parking garage? I can see something similar as the recently rebuilt Lindell Apartments along Vande just as Shadrach expressed.
3) A mixed use along Vande could easily incorporate a Trader Joe's or Schnucks small store format on it. In other words, SuperTarget/Trader Joes work in a more than a few developments. So why not split site into full size Target/Walmart on the east end and incorporate something more in line with the Boulevards instead of showing it in the brochure along Vande.
Sorry, but you could easily change out Forest Park Ave with Eager on the site plan rendering and you wouldn't know the difference. Or if we go with the idea of embracing surrounding community as part of the development then you could argue the box stores in Brentwood are mixed use developments. Heck SuperTarget in Brentwood is walkable to and from residential homes, a park, Y and a metrolink station to boot. Not the greatest experience but doable (left my car at Dobbs and took the metrolink back to my house in Shrewsbury plenty of times)
As far as being a former industrail site, Underground parking for the mixed use buildings along Vande will probably establish the necessary boundary/barrier to make things work for residential development.
Will it benefit the immediate and expanding under served community as Goat314 notes? absolutely yes!! Is it underwhelming in a corridor that is seeing infill and density coming from Cortex plan to infill to Bruce Mills building on Euclid to Opus proposal to Pharmacy college proposal to build out on existing lots? absolutely yes!!
In that respect, I wish PACE embrace the opportunity by at least making some changes.
1) If it is Target store they are going after, Why not full size Target that incorporates the under store/underground parking like you see with its Hampton Store? I think it will fill out the corner much better, fit better with its surroundings and minimize the surface parking. City Target to me doesn't make sense and every increasing grocery store options in the area is filling voids
2) Why be in a rush to develop the outlying parcels along Vande? Talk about a greet mixed use location to add some retail as well as residential units, incorporate parking garage? I can see something similar as the recently rebuilt Lindell Apartments along Vande just as Shadrach expressed.
3) A mixed use along Vande could easily incorporate a Trader Joe's or Schnucks small store format on it. In other words, SuperTarget/Trader Joes work in a more than a few developments. So why not split site into full size Target/Walmart on the east end and incorporate something more in line with the Boulevards instead of showing it in the brochure along Vande.
Sorry, but you could easily change out Forest Park Ave with Eager on the site plan rendering and you wouldn't know the difference. Or if we go with the idea of embracing surrounding community as part of the development then you could argue the box stores in Brentwood are mixed use developments. Heck SuperTarget in Brentwood is walkable to and from residential homes, a park, Y and a metrolink station to boot. Not the greatest experience but doable (left my car at Dobbs and took the metrolink back to my house in Shrewsbury plenty of times)
As far as being a former industrail site, Underground parking for the mixed use buildings along Vande will probably establish the necessary boundary/barrier to make things work for residential development.
Forumers that have been around for a long time (i.e. the days when we all piled up over on Skyscraperpage, St. Louis Rising (started by me) which gave way to Urban St. Louis then NextSTL), know that at one time I was one who believed that any development within St. Louis City was good development.
At one time, all St. Louis City had going for it were small and big box shopping centers. Desco and others were throwing up shopping centers left and right – north and south. The city was starved for development so developers - housing, commercial and retail - could do almost anything they wanted. I believed - THEN - St. Louis had to allow not-so-urban developers to invest in the city in order to get the ball rolling.
I was happy to see new strip centers THEN and I still believe there's a need for them. But not at Federal Mogul.
Fast forward 15 years or so later, I now believe that St. Louis is in a better position to at least request better design from developers. I just don’t buy the argument that St. Louis is slow growing so therefore it should not seek better design (Sorry, goat314). The Federal-Mogul site is an eyesore – and must go. I also believe “big boxes and parking lots” absolutely would be far better than what is there now. But if big boxes and parking lots are to go there, let's urbanize them. Create walkable secure streets and underground garages with residential.
This is a seriously emerging area along FPP. Let’s not ***** it up with unnecessary suburban scale big box design and parking lots. The goal should be sustainability for the city and I'm sorry but the current plan doesn't do it. If the big boxes must come – and they should - let's ask for a more sustainable design. Pace could easily squeeze in a Wal-Mart, Kohl’s, Old Navy etc. into the design along with residential. Imagine workers at CORTEX or students from SLU, HSSU and SLCOP spending more time dining and shopping at bars, restaurants, smaller retail outlets AND big boxes. This layout doesn't encourage people to stay. You pull up, shop then leave.
Can’t the city ask Pace for a better design then up the ante in TIF or other incentives, plus pursue Brownfield funds from the State of Missouri?
The whole stretch is going to be transformed in a few years or so – and I am happy about that whether they go with a more urban design or not. But shouldn’t each phase be intertwined to support sustainability for this corridor as much as possible? Big boxes and parking lots, with this layout, don't support long-term sustainability.
I believe Pace redesigned The Boulevard a couple of times, before finalizing the current design. When you go to The Boulevard, you want to stay longer.
Check out these centers:
Crocker Park (Cleveland)
Southside Works (Pittsburgh)
Atlantic Station (Atlanta)
The Boulevard (Richmond Heights)
Here's a map of Atlantic Station. Notice there's a nearby IKEA.
![]()
At one time, all St. Louis City had going for it were small and big box shopping centers. Desco and others were throwing up shopping centers left and right – north and south. The city was starved for development so developers - housing, commercial and retail - could do almost anything they wanted. I believed - THEN - St. Louis had to allow not-so-urban developers to invest in the city in order to get the ball rolling.
I was happy to see new strip centers THEN and I still believe there's a need for them. But not at Federal Mogul.
Fast forward 15 years or so later, I now believe that St. Louis is in a better position to at least request better design from developers. I just don’t buy the argument that St. Louis is slow growing so therefore it should not seek better design (Sorry, goat314). The Federal-Mogul site is an eyesore – and must go. I also believe “big boxes and parking lots” absolutely would be far better than what is there now. But if big boxes and parking lots are to go there, let's urbanize them. Create walkable secure streets and underground garages with residential.
This is a seriously emerging area along FPP. Let’s not ***** it up with unnecessary suburban scale big box design and parking lots. The goal should be sustainability for the city and I'm sorry but the current plan doesn't do it. If the big boxes must come – and they should - let's ask for a more sustainable design. Pace could easily squeeze in a Wal-Mart, Kohl’s, Old Navy etc. into the design along with residential. Imagine workers at CORTEX or students from SLU, HSSU and SLCOP spending more time dining and shopping at bars, restaurants, smaller retail outlets AND big boxes. This layout doesn't encourage people to stay. You pull up, shop then leave.
Can’t the city ask Pace for a better design then up the ante in TIF or other incentives, plus pursue Brownfield funds from the State of Missouri?
The whole stretch is going to be transformed in a few years or so – and I am happy about that whether they go with a more urban design or not. But shouldn’t each phase be intertwined to support sustainability for this corridor as much as possible? Big boxes and parking lots, with this layout, don't support long-term sustainability.
I believe Pace redesigned The Boulevard a couple of times, before finalizing the current design. When you go to The Boulevard, you want to stay longer.
Check out these centers:
Crocker Park (Cleveland)
Southside Works (Pittsburgh)
Atlantic Station (Atlanta)
The Boulevard (Richmond Heights)
Here's a map of Atlantic Station. Notice there's a nearby IKEA.
Is there a consensus that there's much demand for residential in midtown?
- 11K
There's demand. There are ~350 residential units coming to this area in the near future. When Cortex adds residential, that will be more. This site isn't huge, not as big as the image above (Atlantic Station), but with Cortex office/retail/residential and other residential, this part of Midtown will be mixed-use.
Here are images of Crocker Park in suburban Cleveland (Westlake). All photos were posted on UrbanOhio.com.
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
See More Photos
See More Photos
To be frank, the area is pretty much already mixed-use - even in its current somewhat underwhelming, but emerging, form. The newer developments will certainly enhance the area's offerings.Alex Ihnen wrote:There's demand. There are ~350 residential units coming to this area in the near future. When Cortex adds residential, that will be more. This site isn't huge, not as big as the image above (Atlantic Station), but with Cortex office/retail/residential and other residential, this part of Midtown will be mixed-use.
Also, just for the record, with the Atlantic Station map, I was demonstrating how big boxes could be fit into a more dense development with added residential. I know the footprints between Midtown Station and Atlantic Station are different.
I would be happier though if Pace moved towards an urban design for an urban corridor like they did with The Boulevard.
The Edgewood Retail District, approximately two miles east of Atlanta's downtown, was developed in 2005 by the Sembler Company of St. Petersburg, Florida. Atlanta-based Robertson Loia Roof (RLR) was the architectural firm responsible for the design. Edgewood is difficult to classify. The commercial development has aspects of what the International Council of Shopping Centers calls a power center, but also resembles a newer type of development called a lifestyle center.
To enter the southern section of Edgewood, a driver turns into a driveway running between the two buildings. Only then is the 1,675-space parking lot visible. The lot is surrounded by seven retail stores: Barnes & Noble, Bed, Bath & Beyond, Kroger supermarket, Office Depot, Petco, Ross Dress for Less, and Target. Although at 130,792 square feet, the Target is the largest of the seven, it is the smaller of two typical Target formats, a so-called General Merchandise category as opposed to a Super Target.
(Source)
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
To enter the southern section of Edgewood, a driver turns into a driveway running between the two buildings. Only then is the 1,675-space parking lot visible. The lot is surrounded by seven retail stores: Barnes & Noble, Bed, Bath & Beyond, Kroger supermarket, Office Depot, Petco, Ross Dress for Less, and Target. Although at 130,792 square feet, the Target is the largest of the seven, it is the smaller of two typical Target formats, a so-called General Merchandise category as opposed to a Super Target.
(Source)
Arch, you should not misjudge my sentiment. I'm all for urban design and mixed use throughout the city of St. Louis. I've actually called for citywide form based code on numerous occasions. I just don't think that this site is ideal for residential. The site would need extensive environmental remediation that would undoubtedly drive up the total cost of the project, resulting in high rent apartments with a nice view of an elevated freeway. I also do not think the current design is all that bad. Street facing retail with parking in the back, how is this bad urban design? Especially when we will see true mixed use projects on surrounding blocks. This is also not a final rendering, but a preliminary site plan. The examples you posted also have the benefit of A) not being in close proximity to a double decker freeway and B) not being on a former industrial site.
I actually think the following developments will actually lead to the mixed-use explosion we all desire in Midtown. Much of the Central Corridor will be almost unrecognizable in the next 5-10 years, because I think St. Louis is in the early stages of snowball economic development in the city.
1) BJC expansion
2) Cortex expansion
3) The IKEA
4) Midtown Station
5) Streetcar Proposal
6) The Grove's success
7) CWE Form Based Code
I actually think the following developments will actually lead to the mixed-use explosion we all desire in Midtown. Much of the Central Corridor will be almost unrecognizable in the next 5-10 years, because I think St. Louis is in the early stages of snowball economic development in the city.
1) BJC expansion
2) Cortex expansion
3) The IKEA
4) Midtown Station
5) Streetcar Proposal
6) The Grove's success
7) CWE Form Based Code
^goat314, no problem. Again, I see and saw your points.
My point still remains that St. Louis deserves better NOW. With all of that positive development on the way....enough of the suburban-style big box centers with their massive parking seas plopped down in the heart of the city. I could see chomping at the bits for a big box strip center ten or fifteen years ago, but not now.
It's time for St. Louis to make a shift into the big leagues.
Also, please go back and read what I wrote. I advised that the developers should seek more funding for Brownfields clean-up. What's the hurry? Do it right. Why would the city want a suburban big box strip center next to its premier technology/research/medical center district?
Both Atlantic Station (formerly Atlantic Steel) and Southside Works (formerly LTV Steel) were LARGER Brownfield sites than Federal-Mogul. Also, Atlantic Station overlooks a 12-lane highway.
While I am happy for everything that is happening along FPP, I think part of the problem with St. Louis is that it SETTLES and accepts mediocre development when it doesn't have to anymore. It's time for a sea change. Cities like Pittsburgh and Atlanta have demonstrated that developing quality large-scale urban projects on large Brownfield sites isn't insurmountable.
My point still remains that St. Louis deserves better NOW. With all of that positive development on the way....enough of the suburban-style big box centers with their massive parking seas plopped down in the heart of the city. I could see chomping at the bits for a big box strip center ten or fifteen years ago, but not now.
It's time for St. Louis to make a shift into the big leagues.
Also, please go back and read what I wrote. I advised that the developers should seek more funding for Brownfields clean-up. What's the hurry? Do it right. Why would the city want a suburban big box strip center next to its premier technology/research/medical center district?
Both Atlantic Station (formerly Atlantic Steel) and Southside Works (formerly LTV Steel) were LARGER Brownfield sites than Federal-Mogul. Also, Atlantic Station overlooks a 12-lane highway.
While I am happy for everything that is happening along FPP, I think part of the problem with St. Louis is that it SETTLES and accepts mediocre development when it doesn't have to anymore. It's time for a sea change. Cities like Pittsburgh and Atlanta have demonstrated that developing quality large-scale urban projects on large Brownfield sites isn't insurmountable.
Edgewood! I was trying to remember the name of that development from when I lived in Atlanta.
That's what I want to see built on the burned-out Burlington Coat Factory/Venture strip mall on S. Kingshighway and Delor.
That's what I want to see built on the burned-out Burlington Coat Factory/Venture strip mall on S. Kingshighway and Delor.
- 933
Something similar to The Boulevard would be fantastic here. Maybe a little better looking, though. I would also love it if some of that surface parking facing the highway were developed some way or another, maybe kinda like the big black building in Brentwood next to The Boulevard.
- 2,929
While we may nitpick the details of the design, I think we all can celebrate the end of the Federal Mogul site as-is. Good riddance.
Some quick thoughts:
1. This will actively compete with the retail sites in Mid County, which serves as the de facto hub of retail shopping in the STL Metro Area. That won't change, nor should it. But, having businesses that compete with the Mid County sites will draw the City residents from Downtown, Midtown, and the Central West End who currently have no choice but to drive west to Brentwood, Maplewood, and Richmond Heights to shop. This in turn means new revenues to the City from retail shoppers who are currently compelled to do the bulk of their shopping in the County.
2. Meanwhile, I think it’s quite possible that stores based at the former Federal Mogul site will include some shops that are currently located in Mid County. Some of these retailers currently are at capacity; note how Trader Joe’s recently had to add-on to their Brentwood site because of how heavily trafficked it is now. I bet some of these stores could have two locations (Mid County and Midtown) and not overly cannibalize their client bases. This makes me think that Trader Joe’s is a great candidate store for this site. Also, being next to SLU and near all the apartments in the Central West End, I bet we’ll see some sort of Prepared Foods venue. Could a multi-screen movie theater be coming soon?
3. That giant parking lot is necessary now, but in time I bet it’ll be supplanted by a parking garage with retail on the ground floor, as well as other retailers building up on parts of the parking lot. The worst feature of it now is that it will open up views of a parking lot to cars driving on 64 eastbound into the City; while it’ll showcase retailers to potential shoppers (and that would be preferable to views of decaying infrastructure), it sure would be nice to pass something densely urban in nature, to show they’re driving into the City and not just into some suburb. Demand will probably lead to increased development on-site, with the best spot to a parking garage with ground floor retail being along the highway. Plus, that’s a highly traveled highway and a great place for Pace to market what’s going on at the site.
4. This will very much spur on ancillary developments, namely the “IKEA” site on the other side of Vandeventer and the NE corner of Vandeventer & Forest Park Parkway. It’s best to assume advanced conversations have been taking place regarding these spots for some time. Having the Federal Mogul site going away only encourages these other efforts to follow through. Oh, and ditto that demo’d spot on FPP east of Spring that was supposed to be a Best Western.
5. This is a value-added to SLU students comparable to the developments Wash U is leading along Delmar & Eastgate in the Loop. That’s the beauty of market competition: one’s advancement only encourages the other to fight to be competitive. Ah, capitalism…
Biggest question: Can this site draw in current retail shoppers from the County to the City? It’ll need unique stores to do so…
Some quick thoughts:
1. This will actively compete with the retail sites in Mid County, which serves as the de facto hub of retail shopping in the STL Metro Area. That won't change, nor should it. But, having businesses that compete with the Mid County sites will draw the City residents from Downtown, Midtown, and the Central West End who currently have no choice but to drive west to Brentwood, Maplewood, and Richmond Heights to shop. This in turn means new revenues to the City from retail shoppers who are currently compelled to do the bulk of their shopping in the County.
2. Meanwhile, I think it’s quite possible that stores based at the former Federal Mogul site will include some shops that are currently located in Mid County. Some of these retailers currently are at capacity; note how Trader Joe’s recently had to add-on to their Brentwood site because of how heavily trafficked it is now. I bet some of these stores could have two locations (Mid County and Midtown) and not overly cannibalize their client bases. This makes me think that Trader Joe’s is a great candidate store for this site. Also, being next to SLU and near all the apartments in the Central West End, I bet we’ll see some sort of Prepared Foods venue. Could a multi-screen movie theater be coming soon?
3. That giant parking lot is necessary now, but in time I bet it’ll be supplanted by a parking garage with retail on the ground floor, as well as other retailers building up on parts of the parking lot. The worst feature of it now is that it will open up views of a parking lot to cars driving on 64 eastbound into the City; while it’ll showcase retailers to potential shoppers (and that would be preferable to views of decaying infrastructure), it sure would be nice to pass something densely urban in nature, to show they’re driving into the City and not just into some suburb. Demand will probably lead to increased development on-site, with the best spot to a parking garage with ground floor retail being along the highway. Plus, that’s a highly traveled highway and a great place for Pace to market what’s going on at the site.
4. This will very much spur on ancillary developments, namely the “IKEA” site on the other side of Vandeventer and the NE corner of Vandeventer & Forest Park Parkway. It’s best to assume advanced conversations have been taking place regarding these spots for some time. Having the Federal Mogul site going away only encourages these other efforts to follow through. Oh, and ditto that demo’d spot on FPP east of Spring that was supposed to be a Best Western.
5. This is a value-added to SLU students comparable to the developments Wash U is leading along Delmar & Eastgate in the Loop. That’s the beauty of market competition: one’s advancement only encourages the other to fight to be competitive. Ah, capitalism…
Biggest question: Can this site draw in current retail shoppers from the County to the City? It’ll need unique stores to do so…
^ I don't really think this particular development needs to draw in shoppers from the county into city. What it does as Goat314 pointed out a few posts back and what you note is the area coming into its own as far as retail is concerned. You will have a lot of people including SLU students who are going to appreciate the close access to retail.
I see similiar retailers as mid county but a corridor that can support retail strongly from the city, to mid county to Chesterfield. I think that is great for the region and takes some heat off for the city and county as the merge the respective development offices.
Like I noted earlier, I hope PACE would intentional foot drag on the west end facing Vandy of this development. I think PACE is selling itself short on the initial site plan and might have opportunities to add residential/square footeage along Vandy as this area explodes.
I see similiar retailers as mid county but a corridor that can support retail strongly from the city, to mid county to Chesterfield. I think that is great for the region and takes some heat off for the city and county as the merge the respective development offices.
Like I noted earlier, I hope PACE would intentional foot drag on the west end facing Vandy of this development. I think PACE is selling itself short on the initial site plan and might have opportunities to add residential/square footeage along Vandy as this area explodes.
- 1,864
Is there any chance we could see the old railroad trestle that goes over Vandeventer and into the Federal Mogul site get turned into a bike path? This would be an excellent way to get from CORTEX to the Pace development...and ideally all the way to SLU.
