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PostAug 29, 2006#26

JMedwick wrote:^ I thought about this the other day and belive it or not, I would argue against either the BLVD, the new hotels, or any Galleria expansion facing out onto Brentwood. Since the BLVD and the new hotel development seem to be creating a parallel pedestrian friendly street east of Brentwood, maybe Richmond Heights should focus on having the buildings all face this street and creat a great link to the Galleria using bridges.


Why can't both sides be pedestrian friendly? I know that Richmond Heights wants that entire area to be pedestrian friendly, with people walking between the MetroLink station, The Boulevard, U Club developments, and the Galleria. Why they haven't made more of an effort to improve the pedestrian environment to and from the MetroLink station though to date, is a mystery to me. It is not like they lack the funds...

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PostAug 29, 2006#27

Hmm. I think you misunderstood me jlblues.



I agree that RH must spend the money for pedestrian improvements along Galleria parkway between Brentood and the Metro station. If they can create an attractive streetscape, it will do much to help ensure that the stop lives up to its full potential.



I also agree that there must be pedestrian freidnly shopping areas west and east of brentwood. I however argue that following the BLVD model of parallel roadways to brentwood that are pedestrian friendly is the way to go. This way, you can easily build bridges and walkways over brentwood between two pedestrian friendly parallel streets and not worry about drawing all the ped traffic off of Brentwood because there would be no shops facing Brentwood anyway.

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PostAug 29, 2006#28

^No, I think I understood you. You were advocating that buildings face away from Brentwood towards a parallel pedestrian-friendly street, and the use of bridges over Brentwood, which implies that Brentwood would NOT be pedestrian-friendly. Why can't all of the stores face north or south with entrances onto both streets? Why can't medians and other traffic-calming measures be employed along the entire Brentwood strip? Why can't sidewalks be widened, and landscaping, benches, lighting, etc., be added along ALL of these streets?



There is only one possible reason. Because Richmond Heights and the developers of these various projects want it to be as easy as possible for people to DRIVE to the stores there. They don't give a damn about people wanting to WALK anywhere, except those walking from the parking garage to the store. And I suspect that they also don't want to do anything that might encourage MetroLink passengers to walk into their pretty development.



Incidentally, building a bridge over Brentwood has already been discussed, and dismissed, a long time ago. Do you think Pace Properties wants to make it easy for shoppers to park in the garage at the Boulevard and walk across the street to the Galleria? And vice versa for General Growth and the Galleria?

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PostAug 29, 2006#29

Does Brentwood need to be pedesrian friendly? You assume is must be. I think that would be wrong. Along Brentwood with it's high traffic volume and wide street, I think the shopping district would lack the intamcy folks want in a great ped friendly space.



Besides, if you use bridges to increase the connection between the east and west sides of brentwood anyway (something I think folks would want, not having to deal with crossing 6 lanes of traffic) then you are already going to be diverting most ped traffic away from brentwood anyway. Acknowledge what Brentwood is in that area...

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PostAug 29, 2006#30

JMedwick wrote:Along Brentwood with it's high traffic volume and wide street, I think the shopping district would lack the intamcy folks want in a great ped friendly space.


Brentwood Boulevard carries a fraction of the traffic volume of Michigan Avenue along the Magnificent Mile in Chicago, yet, mysteriously, Michigan Avenue is one of the most pedestrian-friendly shopping areas in existence, as are most of the streets around it. Why do you think that is?

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PostAug 29, 2006#31

Michigan Avenue is one of the most pedestrian-friendly shopping areas in existence, as are most of the streets around it. Why do you think that is?


Well where to begin...



1. Safety in numbers... do you think the Brentwood area pedestrian levels will ever reach those of Michigan Ave? Well if not, then it is hard for pedestrians to commandeer the street when a light changes, as happens so often in NYC and Chicago. And if the pedestrian's can't take the street through their sheer numbers, then they can't do much to counter act the high traffic volumes. The number of pedestrians makes Michigan Avenue more pedestrian friendly.



2. Scale...The scale of the tall buildings to street width. While both Brentwood and Michigan Ave are approximately equal in width (I will admit that Michigan is probably wider) how tall are the buildings on Brentwood? 2 stories? 3 stories? Even if you were talking 15 stories, the scale of the street due to the lack of tall buildings makes Brentwood feel miles wider and like much more of a barrier, thereby reducing the attractiveness of the street to the pedestrian. On Michigan you are talking what 30, 40, 50 stories? The scale is completely different, enclosing the street much more, reducing its perceived width.





To sum up the points above, really isn’t the reason Michigan Ave is a successful pedestrian environment is because of density… more people, more jobs, taller building… all along a similarly sized street.



Maybe you have noticed, but Brentwood doesn’t have and likely won’t see that type of density for 50 or more years, if ever. Then, the question becomes, do you still demand a design based such high density in an environment that doesn’t support such design? Or do you alter your design to meet the needs of the environment?

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PostAug 30, 2006#32

stlmizzoutiger wrote:How about building a "twin" to the University Tower? I think that would look really cool :P STL could have it's own version of identical towers :)


Interestingly the latest plans for the Hotel/Center in The Boulevard calls for a 21 story building. One story less then the U Club Towers

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PostAug 30, 2006#33

23, but I see your point that they will possess a certain symmetry in height, which should play well on the skyline.

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PostAug 30, 2006#34

Where are these plans available?

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PostAug 30, 2006#35

TheWayoftheArch wrote:23, but I see your point that they will possess a certain symmetry in height, which should play well on the skyline.


Valencia tower will be only 15 stories of residential..i believe only 17 total stories now... dropped from 23 -17

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PostAug 30, 2006#36

A more organic example of the parallel traffic/shopping streets would be Kingshighway and Euclid in the CWE. The difference would be that Euclid is actually a real street that carries some traffic, but not nearly the volume of the very busy and indimidatingly wide Kingshighway.

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PostAug 31, 2006#37

^Good analogy, but many wouldn't want a pedestrian bridge over Kingshighway either. I think once a bridge is built over Brentwood, motorists will be further encouraged to not look for pedestrians in the immediate vicinity, thereby making it ironically less safe overall.



I agree with JM that Brentwood at Galleria will never become a Michigan Avenue and that the internal, parallel streets should have more pedestrian-orientation, but people are still going to walk and cross Brentwood, whether there are storefronts along it or not.



Case in point, no one should ever need to cross the Grand viaduct's lanes of traffic on foot from one side of the bridge to the other, since the MetroLink station below provides a grade-separated crossing to elevators and stairs on each side. But some people will still do it. Yet this mid-bridge section of Grand isn't even a place I'd suggest a crosswalk, but narrower lanes or other traffic calming could still help slow down and grab the attention of passing motorists. Examples of where crosswalks should be maintained, despite grade-separated alternatives, are the intersections of Forest Park Parkway with Skinker and with Big Bend. Each of these intersections now has a below-grade option to cross the parkway, due to the new mezzanines in MetroLink stations. While these new options may provide a safer crossing of a busy thoroughfare, I certainly wouldn't want to reward speeding and inattentive motorists by removing the crosswalks at the intersections, and obviously, people are still going to cross at-grade.



In terms of safety, if people are still going to cross at-grade (and they do, even when there grade-separated alternatives), you're better off providing visual cues that this is a special environment (textured crosswalks, pedestrian refuges, countdown walk signals) than ironically reward give motorists the visual cue that they're driving in an auto-only environment by building an overpass.



The shortest path across a street will virtually always be an at-grade crossing. A number of pedestrians will always choose the shortest path to walk. Streets are not meant as exclusive facilities for motorized traffic, only freeways are. Overpasses are best for freeways, not streets.

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PostSep 01, 2006#38

southslider wrote: Streets are not meant as exclusive facilities for motorized traffic, only freeways are.


Word!

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PostSep 07, 2006#39

JMedwick wrote:
Michigan Avenue is one of the most pedestrian-friendly shopping areas in existence, as are most of the streets around it. Why do you think that is?


Well where to begin...



1. Safety in numbers... do you think the Brentwood area pedestrian levels will ever reach those of Michigan Ave? Well if not, then it is hard for pedestrians to commandeer the street when a light changes, as happens so often in NYC and Chicago. And if the pedestrian's can't take the street through their sheer numbers, then they can't do much to counter act the high traffic volumes. The number of pedestrians makes Michigan Avenue more pedestrian friendly.



2. Scale...The scale of the tall buildings to street width. While both Brentwood and Michigan Ave are approximately equal in width (I will admit that Michigan is probably wider) how tall are the buildings on Brentwood? 2 stories? 3 stories? Even if you were talking 15 stories, the scale of the street due to the lack of tall buildings makes Brentwood feel miles wider and like much more of a barrier, thereby reducing the attractiveness of the street to the pedestrian. On Michigan you are talking what 30, 40, 50 stories? The scale is completely different, enclosing the street much more, reducing its perceived width.



To sum up the points above, really isn’t the reason Michigan Ave is a successful pedestrian environment is because of density… more people, more jobs, taller building… all along a similarly sized street.



Maybe you have noticed, but Brentwood doesn’t have and likely won’t see that type of density for 50 or more years, if ever. Then, the question becomes, do you still demand a design based such high density in an environment that doesn’t support such design? Or do you alter your design to meet the needs of the environment?


Of course Brentwood does not have the density or ped traffic that Michigan Avenue does. I never said that it did. I was offering a counter-point to your apparent belief that ped and auto traffic cannot co-exist. They quite obviously can and there are many, many examples around the country of shopping districts where they do (many of which are similar to Richmond Heights in density, but were planned with pedestrians in mind). Your argument seems to be that, since the area is not currently pedestrian friendly, we should just throw up our hands and try to create pedestrian friendly pockets connected by bridges. As an aside, I have seen studies that indicate that those pedestrian bridges of which you are so fond can be just as uninviting to pedestrians as a wide, high-volume street, for all of the same reasons you have cited about Brentwood Boulevard being uninviting vs. Michigan Avenue. Imagine for a second, if you will, that one were to station one scary-looking homeless person somewhere along your pedestrian bridge, and not give people the option of crossing Brentwood at-grade. With little other ped traffic, how many women are going to want to cross that bridge?



While it may not be Michigan Ave., density on and around Brentwood is going to increase very rapidly. Once The Boulevard, the Galleria expansion, the development around the U Club tower, and the new hotels are completed, it will be a dramatically different environment. This will more than likely be followed by development of parcels on Clayton Road and Brentwood south of I-64, outparcels along Eager Road, and the residential neighborhood just Northeast of I-170/I-64. Even if you widened Brentwood Blvd., it may not be able to handle the increase in auto traffic if the only option is to drive and park in those developments. So, Richmond Heights has two options: 1) Cater to the auto, knowing that Brentwood Blvd. will soon become one giant clusterf**k, and eventually driving business away, OR, 2) Think 10 years ahead, and start developing the area NOW into a truly pedestrian-friendly environment. Anyone that has driven down Brentwood since the MetroLink expansion has opened can see how things are already changing. There have been several posts on this forum about the dramatic increase in pedestrian traffic on Brentwood from ZERO ped traffic just a few weeks ago. The fact is, that with two Metro stations nearby, people WILL be walking between developments on Brentwood and Eager, and WILL be walking along those streets. The question is, should Richmond Heights/Brentwood take steps to encourage that activity, or do as you suggest and create an environment that encourages people to drive, and discourages them from walking and/or taking mass-transit? You have to look at what Brentwood Blvd. COULD be, not what it IS.



How do you encourage ped traffic? Lighting, benches, landscaping, public art, decorative sidewalks...widen the sidewalks, narrow the traffic lanes on Brentwood, build planters in the median up and down Brentwood. Narrowing traffic lanes and adding planters slows traffic. Obviously, traffic lights must be set up to calm traffic and allow more time for pedestrians to cross. Large, clear walk/don't walk signs with timers and audible counters should be added. Moreover, several multi-story buildings are planned along Brentwood. Why not demand that these be positioned to "enclose" Brentwood, similar to Michigan Ave., rather than setting them back from the street? All of these options are simple, relatively cheap, and entirely feasible things that Richmond Heights and Brentwood COULD be doing/demanding but, for the most part, have ignored.

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PostSep 07, 2006#40

Sigh… round and round we go, but I will take the bait…



Sadly, jlblues, you fail to understand what my argument is. I am not stating that the Brentwood corridor always HAS BEEN and always MUST BE auto-centric. Instead, I feel quite the opposite, that with the collection of retail, major offices, high-income folks, and transit it represents one of, if not the, best opportunities to develop density in St. Louis County. But what I argue, unlike you, is that there is a limit to the potential to the area and that limit is the ability to create a great pedestrian environment that directly abuts Brentwood. Both views are fine. In fact, it is admirable that you see no boundaries to the development of a great pedestrian environment in the area. I however, do see boundaries, and many of them.



The first is density. Before you clearly attempted to show Michigan Avenue as one of many examples of wide streets were heavy auto traffic and heavy pedestrian traffic co-exist. Yet, I pointed out that safety in numbers can largely explain this co-existence and that this is in turn based on density.



While the Galleria Expansion, the new Hotels, and the BLVD development will all add density to the area, is that density enough to create the pedestrian traffic necessary to commandeer such a wide street? I would argue no. Do the proposed developments create enough density to add to the street-life and make pedestrian-auto conflicts more common? Yes, of course. But, as I stated before, this is not enough density to make stores fronting ON BRENTWOOD a comfortable pedestrian environment. This is where we differ. If the proposed density isn’t enough to make pedestrians strolling along Brentwood comfortable, then the area better damn well look for another option to ensure that a viable pedestrian environment is created. To that end, I still argue for the parallel pedestrian friendly street with all the well-known traffic calming techniques you laundry listed above.



This leaves the question of what about Brentwood. You ask municipalities which play a roll in things like widening Hanley Road to look ahead 10 years and make design changes that will choke auto traffic in the area far more than any of the developments on the books or thrown around by us idle dreamers? Oh well, nice idea it maybe, but the fact is that I can guess and I think you and most others would agree that street trees, on street parking, curb bump-outs, roundabouts and a laundry list of other pedestrian changes will not take place on Brentwood if for simply because of the organizations involved. If the Galleria, Promenade, and Commons do not want to let METRO on their property, are they going to stand idly by and watch their major thoroughfare turn into a parking lot?



So back to what about Brentwood, knowing full well that we can tilt at the windmill of narrowing Brentwood or come up with solutions that have a chance of happening. Bridges are a fine idea, though as we all can see in downtown STL, they are not good when designed poorly. Far more practical is a compromise of bridges and one or two good at grate crossings complete with count down times, nice medians for pedestrians, and differentiated pavement at the crosswalks and intersections. But none of these solutions will make you fantasy of a narrow, ped-friendly stroll along Brentwood a reality and that is because it is not a realistic possibility for the many reasons I have stated:



Lack of density

Lack of tall buildings to frame the street and create the intimacy of a great shopping street (the ratio of building height to ROW width is a good measure to look at. The ratio of a 120 foot ROW and a 15 story building (what I think is proposed along Brentwood) and a 120 foot ROW and a 40 story building are not the same and make the street feel drastically different)

Lack of public AND private support for the requisite infrastructure changes



JLBlues, there is nothing wrong with looking at what Brentwood can be, but it is foolish to look at what it can be with no concept and no notion of what it is currently and the many real current AND future obstacles to pedestrian friendly development in this area.

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PostSep 16, 2006#41

I think i saw a tall yellow crane on the ground near the small one :?:

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PostSep 17, 2006#42

Here are some new renderings I found.....














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PostSep 17, 2006#43

Pretty boring architecture, but it's nice to see that corner built-out. Now about the Galleria's sea of cars...



Thanks for the pics.

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PostSep 17, 2006#44

^ Wow... I am pretty disapointed in that development. I love the height and density along Clayton (making it more and more likely something will happen with that funny triangular area to the north), but what is up with the "greenspace" across from the Boulvard development? Can't we get a solid strip of retail along Brentwood? Can't that be developed?

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PostSep 17, 2006#45

Not bad, but why not make those commercial buildings along brentwood a few stories tall and put condos in a la the Boulevard?

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PostSep 18, 2006#46

These renderings look "great." Too bad it isn't 1992 anymore.

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PostSep 18, 2006#47

The Curmudgeon wrote:
stlmizzoutiger wrote:How about building a "twin" to the University Tower? I think that would look really cool :P STL could have it's own version of identical towers :)


Interestingly the latest plans for the Hotel/Center in The Boulevard calls for a 21 story building. One story less then the U Club Towers


That's exactly why I said that. It seems like a cool proposal to me. 8)

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PostSep 18, 2006#48

Framer wrote:Pretty boring architecture, but it's nice to see that corner built-out. Now about the Galleria's sea of cars...



Thanks for the pics.


Looks about standard for any non boutique chain hotel. You're not going to get exciting from hotels aimed at business and family travelers.

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PostSep 18, 2006#49

I just find it hard to beleive all that developement is going into that small space.



By the way heres what the U club went for:



Heavy Hitters

University Club Tower

Brokers: David Randolph and Tripp Hardin, Trammell Crow Krombach Partners

St. Louis Business Journal - September 15, 2006





Category: Office building sale



Where: 1034 S. Brentwood, Richmond Heights



Square footage: 280,000



How much: $40 million



David Randolph and Tripp Hardin of Trammell Crow Krombach Partners represented Glenborough Realty Trust in the sale of the University Club Tower, located across from the Saint Louis Galleria in St. Louis County. Houston-based Lionstone Group purchased the office building. The deal closed in December.

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PostSep 19, 2006#50

I think it went for around $150 a sq ft. Pretty good for St. Louis office space. We;ve been getting a lot of outside/foreign investors buying up commercial buildings due to the steady/unvolatile market. These large buildings seem a bargain comapred to the coasts, and investor's favorite area is still real estate.

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