This thread has gone bananas. I think the general point being made about blacks is that they account for a disproportionately large amount of crime relative to their population. Is that racially driven? Yes, in some capacity. Is it because they earn below the median income? Is it because they have a higher than average percentage of unemployment? Is it because they have a lower then average level of education? I don't know. At some point, you have to accept these data points and begin to address how to improve them.
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"Like I said, I don't believe that one race is superior, but these questions make it seem that way, and it deeply troubles me."
no, they don't. the world is a complicated place. can you really not fathom that the explanation is more complex than "one race is superior"? and "superior" is a value judgment. what is "superior"? is the "superior" race the one that successfully dominates all the others? because in that case it sounds to me like the "superior" race is the more violent one. i'm not trying to be dismissive or insulting, but it is unreasonable to suggest that the existence of such questions (as you stated above) necessarily implies the racist explanation rather than one of an infinity of other possible explanations. in a way it reminds me of religion.
no, they don't. the world is a complicated place. can you really not fathom that the explanation is more complex than "one race is superior"? and "superior" is a value judgment. what is "superior"? is the "superior" race the one that successfully dominates all the others? because in that case it sounds to me like the "superior" race is the more violent one. i'm not trying to be dismissive or insulting, but it is unreasonable to suggest that the existence of such questions (as you stated above) necessarily implies the racist explanation rather than one of an infinity of other possible explanations. in a way it reminds me of religion.
Perhaps societies in sub-Saharan Africa they didn’t need to build “great cities"? Lewis Mumford wrote a book on this topic which you might find answers to some of these questions.someguy wrote:If race has nothing to do with empire building, then where are the great cities of sub-Saharan Africa? Every one I can think of was built by Europeans or Arabs.
The "great cities" built by Europeans were to facilitate resource extraction and domination. The British built these monuments and cities so their subjects would believe themselves to be inferior, when in fact they could have thrown them out with large uprisings as is what eventually happened. So did that make the British racially "superior" or rather did they use that argument to justify their violence, ignorance, and exploitation?
[quote="ttricamo]I think the general point being made about blacks is that they account for a disproportionately large amount of crime relative to their population. Is that racially driven? Yes, in some capacity. Is it because they earn below the median income? Is it because they have a higher than average percentage of unemployment? Is it because they have a lower then average level of education?[/quote]
Some inner-city areas have the same degree of opportunity present in third-world slums. This results from underdevelopment. Many books have been written on this topic and I would recommend “Origins of the Urban Crisis” and “When Work Disappears” for a good start.
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Yep.ttricamo wrote:This thread has gone bananas. I think the general point being made about blacks is that they account for a disproportionately large amount of crime relative to their population. Is that racially driven? Yes, in some capacity. Is it because they earn below the median income? Is it because they have a higher than average percentage of unemployment? Is it because they have a lower then average level of education? I don't know. At some point, you have to accept these data points and begin to address how to improve them.
Boy what a thread...lol...
What is the philosophy or thought that allows different looking people to come together around similar ideas, places, or activities? Sports can do this effectively, the arts can do this, often religion does this as well (look no further than broadbased modern ecumenical movements or World Youth Day lead by the Pope for strong evidence of this). Violent regimes can also have the same effect, right?
We need to find those things that allow all St. Louisans to choose to come together and expand them. That's one reason I really like and loudly support the Arch grounds and efforts to increase the programming in the National Park and immediate areas...We need large and impressive common spaces that instill strong values and support families...
What is the philosophy or thought that allows different looking people to come together around similar ideas, places, or activities? Sports can do this effectively, the arts can do this, often religion does this as well (look no further than broadbased modern ecumenical movements or World Youth Day lead by the Pope for strong evidence of this). Violent regimes can also have the same effect, right?
We need to find those things that allow all St. Louisans to choose to come together and expand them. That's one reason I really like and loudly support the Arch grounds and efforts to increase the programming in the National Park and immediate areas...We need large and impressive common spaces that instill strong values and support families...
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^ Off-topic a bit, but St. Louis doesn't lack for "large and impressive common spaces" and spending $553M on a park isn't likely the best investment to bring together people of different races and backgrounds.
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Thank you and I accept Doug's apology. Joking.Alex Ihnen wrote:Yep.ttricamo wrote:This thread has gone bananas. I think the general point being made about blacks is that they account for a disproportionately large amount of crime relative to their population. Is that racially driven? Yes, in some capacity. Is it because they earn below the median income? Is it because they have a higher than average percentage of unemployment? Is it because they have a lower then average level of education? I don't know. At some point, you have to accept these data points and begin to address how to improve them.
Hey, I'm not happy about any of this! Numbers don't lie. Just acknowledge it and try to do something to be a part of the solution. I'm considering adopting a black child. I just want everyone to be healthy and happy and possibly drunk. Is that too much too ask?
No. We have Forest Park, among other places, and its amenities which often bring together different races and cultures into the same space. FWIW, the areas casinos often do this too.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ Off-topic a bit, but St. Louis doesn't lack for "large and impressive common spaces" and spending $553M on a park isn't likely the best investment to bring together people of different races and backgrounds.
The half billion dollar investment isn't the best way to solve this problem directly, but certainly, this kind of investment into the regions core would contribute to soldifying a place and experience that unifies the region. Especially, if the Arch grounds are programmed properly. The Fourth of July celebration down at the Arch is the most dramatic example bringing everyone in the region together that I have seen. Every slice of the St. Louis area shows up at the Arch. I just don't think you could do that anywhere else.
IMO there is something to large, visual, and meaningful buildings or monuments that express a community's unity in a tangible way. Whether its the Arch de Triumph, London Bridge, Cathedrals of earlier times, or the Golden Gate Bridge, large iconic things have value and are not easily designed or built. We have that rare structure here in St. Louis. Significant investment which increases access and connection between visitors and residents and the Arch are important. How important still remains to be seen I suppose.
This sounds like a good plan!leeharveyawesome wrote: Hey, I'm not happy about any of this! Numbers don't lie. Just acknowledge it and try to do something to be a part of the solution. I'm considering adopting a black child. I just want everyone to be healthy and happy and possibly drunk. Is that too much too ask?
I don't dispute the problem of violent crime. There's a debate about the cause and seems to be wide disagreement. But whatever.
Is there any truth to the claim that at some time in the recent past (last few decades) African Americans were discouraged by the police from congregating in Forest Park?RobbyD wrote: No. We have Forest Park, among other places, and its amenities which often bring together different races and cultures into the same space. FWIW, the areas casinos often do this too.
^I have no insights into practices in Forest Park...
I come from a perspective that the world is not binary and attmepts to make sense of it using such narrow lenses of black/white or rich/poor or male/female are inadequate...
I can tell you I have seen numerous family reunions in Forest Park, many of which were black families...
I can tell you I have seen numerous church gatherings in Forest Park, some of which were majority black congregations...
I can tell you I have seen the police break up groups of young people in Forest Park, many of which were black folks...
I can tell you the cops used to break large gatherings of young people in closed grocery store parking lots when I was in high school, most of which were white...
I understand our country has Klu Klux Klan groups who preach hate...I understand our country has Black Panther groups who put bounties on people's heads...There is hate and racism to be found...But to ultimately put everyone in either the Klan camp or Panther camp is not only not true, it is extremely harmful...
In the end skin tone does not really define a man or woman...No matter what one believes, one's choices and actions really define who one is, right? The minute any of us are black first, white first, hispanic first and not a human first created by God with inalienable rights (as the Declaration of Independce says) our civil society is diminshed...
I come from a perspective that the world is not binary and attmepts to make sense of it using such narrow lenses of black/white or rich/poor or male/female are inadequate...
I can tell you I have seen numerous family reunions in Forest Park, many of which were black families...
I can tell you I have seen numerous church gatherings in Forest Park, some of which were majority black congregations...
I can tell you I have seen the police break up groups of young people in Forest Park, many of which were black folks...
I can tell you the cops used to break large gatherings of young people in closed grocery store parking lots when I was in high school, most of which were white...
I understand our country has Klu Klux Klan groups who preach hate...I understand our country has Black Panther groups who put bounties on people's heads...There is hate and racism to be found...But to ultimately put everyone in either the Klan camp or Panther camp is not only not true, it is extremely harmful...
In the end skin tone does not really define a man or woman...No matter what one believes, one's choices and actions really define who one is, right? The minute any of us are black first, white first, hispanic first and not a human first created by God with inalienable rights (as the Declaration of Independce says) our civil society is diminshed...
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What if we were created from evolution, though?RobbyD wrote: In the end skin tone does not really define a man or woman...No matter what one believes, one's choices and actions really define who one is, right? The minute any of us are black first, white first, hispanic first and not a human first created by God with inalienable rights (as the Declaration of Independce says) our civil society is diminshed...
^Your question makes no sense.
Evolution would be defined as a process ocurring through time subject to the impersonal forces of nature...God would be defined as an intelligent entity which exists outside of time and in most traditions is knowable...
To say the sun came up because the sun came up...or even because the earth rotates only says what has happened, not who or what may have put the sun in the sky...
I suppose you could say that the universe just showed up on day out of thin air...Just like the Christians say...
Evolution would be defined as a process ocurring through time subject to the impersonal forces of nature...God would be defined as an intelligent entity which exists outside of time and in most traditions is knowable...
To say the sun came up because the sun came up...or even because the earth rotates only says what has happened, not who or what may have put the sun in the sky...
I suppose you could say that the universe just showed up on day out of thin air...Just like the Christians say...
IOW you can say a painting exists because of an artist or you can say a painting exists because of pigments, apparent brush strokes, saturation into the canvans, and gravity which holds it all together...
Two different answers with the same result...A painting...And two answers with different insights into the meaining of the painting...
Two different answers with the same result...A painting...And two answers with different insights into the meaining of the painting...
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You're right. Woman came from the rib of man. Makes much more sense.RobbyD wrote:^Your question makes no sense.
Evolution would be defined as a process ocurring through time subject to the impersonal forces of nature...God would be defined as an intelligent entity which exists outside of time and in most traditions is knowable...
To say the sun came up because the sun came up...or even because the earth rotates only says what has happened, not who or what may have put the sun in the sky...
I suppose you could say that the universe just showed up on day out of thin air...Just like the Christians say...
And yes. The universe did show up one day. That's what the whole "Big Bang" thing is talking about. Not just a sitcom.
^My last comment on this =D
The Bible is not a scientific text book or scientific expose on the creation of the Universe...It does not propose itself to be such...Credible authorities do not propose it to be such...It is ultimately a collection of moral writings meant to give guidance in an often cold and difficult world...
Science does not propose itself to be a moral guide or an authority on realities that might exist outside of its expertise...Credible authorities do not propose it to be such...Science is ultimately a collection of observations and assumptions meant to understand teh created world and how things work...Not how things should be, but how they are and likely were...
The whole Big Bang thing suggests the created world exploded on the scene out of nowhere...Christians seem to ultimately suggest the same thing, with the addition of ascribing a creator and designer to something that clear seems created and designed...
The Bible is not a scientific text book or scientific expose on the creation of the Universe...It does not propose itself to be such...Credible authorities do not propose it to be such...It is ultimately a collection of moral writings meant to give guidance in an often cold and difficult world...
Science does not propose itself to be a moral guide or an authority on realities that might exist outside of its expertise...Credible authorities do not propose it to be such...Science is ultimately a collection of observations and assumptions meant to understand teh created world and how things work...Not how things should be, but how they are and likely were...
The whole Big Bang thing suggests the created world exploded on the scene out of nowhere...Christians seem to ultimately suggest the same thing, with the addition of ascribing a creator and designer to something that clear seems created and designed...
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My whole thing was that you added "created by God" into your answer. It was a solid, all-inclusive response until then. Kinda fits the theme of this thread, actually.RobbyD wrote:^My last comment on this =D
The Bible is not a scientific text book or scientific expose on the creation of the Universe...It does not propose itself to be such...Credible authorities do not propose it to be such...It is ultimately a collection of moral writings meant to give guidance in an often cold and difficult world...
Science does not propose itself to be a moral guide or an authority on realities that might exist outside of its expertise...Credible authorities do not propose it to be such...Science is ultimately a collection of observations and assumptions meant to understand teh created world and how things work...Not how things should be, but how they are and likely were...
The whole Big Bang thing suggests the created world exploded on the scene out of nowhere...Christians seem to ultimately suggest the same thing, with the addition of ascribing a creator and designer to something that clear seems created and designed...
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^since we're on the subject, a quick thought. (i will not utter another word about it.) why is it more plausible to say that God is "infinite" in some sense (has no beginning or end, no creator) than it is to say that the universe is infinite in some sense (has always existed in one form or another, exploded out of nothingness, etc). i just find it interesting when people scoff at the idea that the universe has no creator, but think it's perfectly reasonable that God has existed for all time, or lives outside of time, or something or other.
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Very not "old school urban stl.com" discussion.
Signs and wonders.
Signs and wonders.
Steven Hawking has a really good series on this stuff and it's available on Netflix.
I think if you want to continue discussing God vs the Universe you should start a different thread.
Even discussing race vs evolution is a bit more in depth than this thread originally intended, imo.
Even discussing race vs evolution is a bit more in depth than this thread originally intended, imo.
Last night the barkeep at the Horseshoe House said business was down after the shooting, albeit a qualitative assessment. Please get over there. I don't want that corner to be empty again!
Blueberry Hill seemed a bit slow last night at dinnertime. Of course, it was just a Tuesday night.
Sunday afternoon my family and I went to Forest Park to go for a long walk and enjoy the warmer weather. After leaving the park we decided to head to the Delmar Loop around 4:30pm or so. The first sign of trouble was when we tried to turn onto Delmar and it took 3 cycles of the light to even move. So I decided to bail and head up Skinker and come in from the north. As we pass Taco Bell my 3 year old starts hollering he wants a cheese rollup to snack on. I know he walked a lot and played hard so I decide to indulge him. So we turn in and I see a St. Louis police car in the parking lot, but I don't think anything of it.
As I get out of the car a police officer very sternly yells at me "SIR!". I turn around and she points at me going "LEAVE!" then she points towards Skinker and even more harshly says "NOW!". So I get in the car, start it and quickly pull away. As I do I notice the inside of the Taco Bell was filled with like 30+ teenagers.
Needless to say the wife is concerned and my son is asking tons of questions as we head down Skinker. As we pass Delmar I notice a couple of police standing on the sidewalk and multiple cop cars with the lights on. I didn't see the armored car they used to post at the Shell station.
As I get out of the car a police officer very sternly yells at me "SIR!". I turn around and she points at me going "LEAVE!" then she points towards Skinker and even more harshly says "NOW!". So I get in the car, start it and quickly pull away. As I do I notice the inside of the Taco Bell was filled with like 30+ teenagers.
Needless to say the wife is concerned and my son is asking tons of questions as we head down Skinker. As we pass Delmar I notice a couple of police standing on the sidewalk and multiple cop cars with the lights on. I didn't see the armored car they used to post at the Shell station.
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Honestly, I consider the Loop to be a daytime destination and generally try to be out of there by the time the sun goes down. I know that sounds like something a scared County dweller would say, but I've seen more sketchiness in the Loop after dark than any other entertainment area in the City.