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PostApr 02, 2012#226

The past few times I have been to the Loop there weren't any problems and the issues appeared to have been solved. Have they gradually resurfaced over the past few months?

It would be very helpful if the City and U City curfews were aligned so the we're the same. It only causes problems by pushing people like cattle across a line. This is where the disconnect lies. I have always thought the 9 curfew was too late and should be moved up to 7 or 8.

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PostApr 02, 2012#227

downtown2007 wrote:The past few times I have been to the Loop there weren't any problems and the issues appeared to have been solved. Have they gradually resurfaced over the past few months?
This issue seems to trend with the weather. As summer approaches these teens want a place to hang out. I was on the Loop in November and there was no issue whatsoever. Although, i was around Ciceros, not very far east on Delmar.

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PostApr 02, 2012#228

I had a hunch something like this happened sat night and actually googled it, and sure enough, as there was more police activity all around this weekend. Incidentally when stuff like this happens on Delmar, there is often also an incident on the Plaza in KC, as there was this past weekend.

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PostApr 02, 2012#229

I was in The Loop Saturday afternoon and evening with a small group. We had a couple of drinks at the Pin-Up Bowl and at Eclipse before moving onto the Horseshoe House (small plug: Yum!) for dinner. While we were sitting outside the Horseshoe House, we noticed two policemen on the opposite side of Delmar moving a group of teenagers along, mostly African-American, toward the east away from The Loop. Minutes later, we heard no gunshots, but saw droves of teenagers heading our way. Some of them seemed scared and/or shaken up, and some told us about the fights. Almost instantly, I saw more police cars tear down Delmar Boulevard than I've ever seen, well, except for the chase scene in The Blues Brothers. :shock:

After dinner, I went to a friend's house nearby on Washington Boulevard and waited for things to die down a bit. I then walked to my car, which was parked behind the Pageant, and by then police blocked off the intersection and began directing traffic and fellow pedestrians.

I point all of this out because I never felt unsafe. If anything, I was encouraged by such a strong police response. I was under the impression this type of behavior died down late last summer, but I wouldn't have stayed away from The Loop anyway. Taking my family there, now that's a different story. I won't hesitate to take them to the area either, but I'll be mindful of the time at which I take them, where I park, where I go, etc. So I'm anxious to see the government/law enforcement response.

This morning, Mayor Slay posted to Facebook about his frustration with the incident, as well as a meeting that took place with Alderwoman Krewson, area business leaders, and University City officials. They discussed ways to more effectively deploy resources to the area; I think that's a great start. I am not a fan of video cameras per se, but I think the surveillance vehicle that's now in the area is a good step as well.

However, I couldn't help but to be puzzled by the mayor's other suggestion: car-free weekends. To me this is an idea that makes a few people feel good, but it creates a whole host of additional problems and risks draining the area of its vitality. Pardon me if I don't see the logic in eliminating cars on weekends when the perpetrators of this incident were mostly pedestrians, at least as far as we know.

I agree with others: Church's Chicken and Circle K are magnets for trouble-makers. These people congregate on the surface lots, and sure enough, this incident began at the Church's parking lot based on the accounts I've seen. Like DeBaliviere said, the businesses themselves aren't responsible, but if you had developments of a better and higher use at the northwest and southeast corners of Delmar and Skinker boulevards, you'd have nowhere for these miscreants to congregate.

Dealing with the systemic causes, as ttricamo said, is quite a bit more difficult, and our local history suggests it's something we don't really like to think about much. And, quite honestly, for those of us that are genuinely concerned about that, I don't know where we being as a community.

The car-free idea, however, seems preposterous. I'd be willing to see it happen on a limited basis as a trial. But I think a comprehensive traffic management plan should first be in place and the proposed Loop Trolley should be fully operational before this type of thing happens on a regular basis. Closing the streets to vehicular traffic creates an inconvenience for many people, eliminates a lot of on-street parking (including dozens of handicapped spaces), pushes traffic and parked cars onto adjacent side streets that cannot handle the additional load, and does absolutely NOTHING to address what happened Saturday night.

Hopefully this idea never moves beyond the concept stage unless local leaders have sound planning in place. But I think they'd better worry about doing something with the actual criminals first.

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PostApr 02, 2012#230

Horrible news.

I would like to remind people that crime in the french quarter is an issue and that place isn't going anywhere. This is the really the best street in the region. Thinking it's going downhill and too dangerous will only make things worse. People have invested a lot of money and we have progressed as a region - though not enough - since the 1960's. Comparing this to Gaslight Square is wrong. The region is not going to abandon this place due to fear of minorities.

African American youth are here perhaps because neighborhoods they live in are either boring or dangerous. They can't go to the mall anymore so now they go here and why wouldn't they considering all of the cool aspects of the Loop? When large groups of kids gather regardless of race, from opposing schools and neighborhoods, clashes will occur. This happens to some extent in white suburban areas too. Policing is a good idea, but as would be counseling and intervention in the schools and neighborhoods where they reside.

Car free weekends actually could help with policing. During large events in the french quarter the police are quite effective at crowd control, limiting pedestrian access to side streets (with gates that either block streets or narrow enough for only a few people to cross at once) and crowding people in one area. If something goes down, it's a lot easier to surround large crowds and do mass arrests this way. But that doesn't really address gun violence. It also really doesn't help with police-community relations. I would like to hear more details on Slay's suggestion of car free days.

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PostApr 02, 2012#231

-Metro and police should not let anyone under 18 exit off the train at the Delmar station after 6:00 on Friday and Saturdays. if you have a job, perhaps you could apply for a pass.
-turn Wellston into a "youth hangout strip". there are plenty of buildings along Page in Wellston that sit vacant. The former JC Penney building could be turned into a giant 16 and up nightclub. they could have the best metal detectors and security in the US. perhaps some store fronts could be turned into arcades, etc.
These roving teenagers could have their own area to do it up. Exterior walls could display movies, etc. this area is otherwise abandoned.

also, just "stepping up the police presence" will not cut it. who wants to go to an area with riot police everyone trying to control unruly teens..?

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PostApr 02, 2012#232

^Never mind. St. Louis hasnt changed since the 1960's.

You realize you are arguing for segregation and profiling - things which already exist in Saint Louis today and haven't solved any of these issues?

There are no riot police in the quarter - simply cops with clubs, horses, as well as the threat of being assaulted and held without charge. They have strict enforcement. Yet crime is still an issue. Why? New Orleans is poor - a lot worse than Saint Louis. How can these problems be fixed without addressing the structural?

American policy treats poor people as the problem. Crime happens due to joblessness and William Wilson proved this already. We respond to this with austerity and building jails.

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PostApr 02, 2012#233

Doug, we can play pretend all day and say that every single teenager of every background has caused these problems, but I wasn't born yesterday, and I'd argue most would agree with me. 90% + of these kids are good kids, but when hundreds show up enmasse, things almost always seem to get out of control. No club, or arcade, is catering to this particular group in the Loop. Why not have a "teen strip" and redevelop wellston at the same time that caters to teenagers? All races are welcome and no races are obviously excluded from the loop. closing the streets to pedestrian only traffic is a bad idea too. That wouldn't prevent the problems we have seen. some of these kids are rude and aggressive. I saw one kid get in Joe Edwards face one night two years ago as he was trying to move them eastward. I was ready to jump in, in defense. Doug, I'd love to hear your solution.. Oh and we made the drudge report with this story, there were recent similar stories in Minneapolis and Chicago.. At least we're not alone.

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PostApr 03, 2012#234

Edit: On second thought, not even going to go there.

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PostApr 03, 2012#235

I really resent the idea of a curfew. I was raised to treat my fellow man with respect, to use violence as an absolutely last resort, and to set high goals and standards. Throughout high school, my friends and I would go to the loop "en masse," and we never had the slightest thought of committing an act of violence. We were more responsible than many so called "adults" who drove while drunk and pissed in public.

While I'm now old enough to not have to worry about a curfew, I will be furious if my future children cannot enjoy the freedoms that I had. Instead of a curfew, how about we have the schools give out cards, maybe even put a stamp on the license, that shows that a kid has a creditable scholastic record? A dress code maybe? A generally stricter code of conduct? The perpetrators in these scenarios seem to have more than a few things in common: they're failing out of school, they're loud and obnoxious, they dress like $#!+, and they act even worse. It shouldn't be THAT HARD to tell who's who.

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PostApr 03, 2012#236

Anyone have ideas others than curfews and stepped up police presence that can address the situation in the near term? There are large societal issues here beyond the scope of what the city, the police, etc. can do anything about, so what can we do? Don't like curfews? Don't think large groups of black youth should be told to disperse? What can be done?

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PostApr 03, 2012#237

No a curfew will not solve the societal issues but can have an impact on the Loop in the short term. As a matter of fact I think municipalities should start adopting plans that will curb these issues before they start in our popular commercial districts such as Wash Ave, So Grand, Cherokee, CWE, etc.

We have a large percentage of the pop that refuses or thinks they have nothing to contribute to society. It would be better long term to include them in solving issues and encourage them to partake in community activities that cause them to have pride in their city instead of tearing it apart.

Here is what Mayor Nutter did in Philly....

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/0 ... sity-city/

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PostApr 03, 2012#238

Do we have enough free public basketball courts for these teens to use? I I mean I am trying to think of something to keep them busy. Why not make st. Louis a Mecca for youth basketball. Nba team in 10 years.

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PostApr 03, 2012#239

To stop this now. Implement a curfew. It sucks, but they've lost the privileges by behaving poorly. It may just be a handful of teens, but shots fired at place so busy, means take any option to stop it. Do a 10PM curfew for those under 18 and without a parent or guardian with them. Implement a 1AM curfew for those under 21.

Get all the local businesses to implement a "No Loitering" ordinance. If people aren't buying your goods, they shouldn't be on your property.

Step up police presence on Fridays and Saturdays with cops walking regularly up and down Delmar. You could even get businesses to pay off-duty cops. Similar to what they do in CWE neighborhoods.

We have to get this behavior stopped now because its only going to get worse as the summer comes around and there's more teens with time on their hands. A statement needs to be made.

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PostApr 03, 2012#240

jcity wrote:Doug, I'd love to hear your solution.. Oh and we made the drudge report with this story, there were recent similar stories in Minneapolis and Chicago.. At least we're not alone.
I agree with your idea of providing a safe place for youths to hangout and that should be an objective. If anything the best place for kids to be would be near police and crowds of older people. In these places if they do something bad consequences happen immediately.

But the Wellston location is a bad one for two reasons. First, the area is not safe and largely African American. Should kids be hanging out there, while the community would perceive this suggestion as segregation. Two, I don't think any developers would find the area or proposal profitable.

Perhaps officials should sit down with community members and kids who like the Loop to figure out why they go to the Loop, what types of things are lacking in their own communities, and then determine whether they can be provided in the Loop or elsewhere. To me the idea of saying African American kids don't belong in the Loop after a certain hour makes little sense.

Teenagers aren't going to stay inside or go to bed early simply due to a curfew. When I lived in the suburbs, way out from the city, during high school, we never got into fights but there was definitely illegal things going on. There was nothing for us to do and nowhere to go except a friend’s house, our car, a park, or some parking lot. We were really bored. My youngest brother, who is about to move off to college, is a little smarter than I was and has found some clubs in the city which cater to underage drinkers. He’s not an idiot and doesn’t get into trouble.

I am told underage drinking in Europe, for example, isn’t as much of an issue as parents teach their kids how to handle it. The same seems to apply in Canada, though I haven’t been here long enough to say for sure. So I think the problem should be addressed with engagement and treating these kids like they matter. These experiences, like Slay and others have said, are not normal and should be addressed with intervention not simply policing and cracking down.

I don’t think these problems will be eliminated in the near term, as for example shootings certainly have a lot to do with gun policy. The worst thing would be to brand everyone guilty before innocent as I believe this is America and that’s not how our justice system works. Of course that will always be the inclination with kids, because we think they are dumb and also since they can't or don't vote. Kids of course are idiots to some degree and do stupid things, but they are also smart, accurately perceive the world around them, and will give respect when they receive it.

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PostApr 03, 2012#241

Rainford says an earlier curfew for the city side is unlikely. He says they'll put pressure on the Shell and Church's Chicken to notify police when large groups are gathering and allow them on the property to move the kids along and/or cite/arrest them for trespassing.

Replacing them with structures more commencerate with the rest of the Loop would be better.

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PostApr 03, 2012#242

Can someone please explain why a curfew change is unlikely?

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PostApr 03, 2012#243

downtown2007 wrote:Can someone please explain why a curfew change is unlikely?
Speculation: Slay has an election coming up against Reed and has done a lot recently to try to court the African American community. It is possible a curfew might not sit well with some if implemented improperly.

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PostApr 03, 2012#244

zink wrote:Do we have enough free public basketball courts for these teens to use? I I mean I am trying to think of something to keep them busy. Why not make st. Louis a Mecca for youth basketball. Nba team in 10 years.
I think basketball courts/other free recreation is a good option. I think making the Shell Station and Church's Chicken pay for some private security would be helpful (I think businesses have some responsibility not to permit large groups to congregate on their property and I suspect Church's Chicken is very worried that they are going to get sued on dangerous premises/negligent security claim).

I realize a curfew is probably necessary/desirable, but I do worry that eventually curfews will start being earlier and earlier until they reach a point when where no teens are allowed on the Loop ever.

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PostApr 03, 2012#245

jcity wrote:-Metro and police should not let anyone under 18 exit off the train at the Delmar station after 6:00 on Friday and Saturdays. if you have a job, perhaps you could apply for a pass.
-turn Wellston into a "youth hangout strip". there are plenty of buildings along Page in Wellston that sit vacant. The former JC Penney building could be turned into a giant 16 and up nightclub. they could have the best metal detectors and security in the US. perhaps some store fronts could be turned into arcades, etc.
These roving teenagers could have their own area to do it up. Exterior walls could display movies, etc. this area is otherwise abandoned.

also, just "stepping up the police presence" will not cut it. who wants to go to an area with riot police everyone trying to control unruly teens..?
The solution is really quite simple. You post ticket takers at all southbound stations north of Delmar. If they can't get on the train, they can't get to the Loop.

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PostApr 03, 2012#246

I don't think basketball courts solve the immediate or long term problem.

All a basketball court does is give them somewhere to congregate away from the Loop. It won't stop them from fighting or shooting guns. If anything it could get worse because then there wouldn't be any public watching. And there would be even less law enforcement around. There's a reason why you don't see any public basketball courts around the city. I would guess its likely because of past problems.

They want to be where everyone else is, a place that is cool and busy like the Loop. Long term you need better gun laws, and somehow teach these youth that you can't solve your emotional frustrations with violence.

Its sad that race is playing an issue here when it shouldn't be. Seriously, guns were fired. It doesn't matter whether you're black, white, hispanic, whatever. A curfew should be implemented at least temporarily to get the point across. If this kind of stuff is going on, you need to be strong and do what it takes to stop it.

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PostApr 03, 2012#247

^^ Wow. So the problem is from teenagers taking MetroLink (without paying) to the Loop? Assumptions: teenagers don't and won't pay to ride MetroLink, they won't ride a bus, they're only coming from north of the Delmar Station, they won't drive and get a ride to the Loop...

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PostApr 03, 2012#248

This might not be the place for it but I'd like to see a St. Louis community college outreach center in the loop. Just something for them to think about while idling out.

I know not too long ago a campus was being considered in North City, maybe its time to look into that again. The bottom line is these kids need a future.

and as an aside @Pat how dare you sully the great sport of basketball. St. Louis could definitely use more urban b-ball courts. If they're congregating at courts and violence ensues its probably because the courts suck and aren't being used for basketball anyway.

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PostApr 04, 2012#249

I gotta give Doug credit. He is a true believer. He probably thinks that given perfect circumstances the Welsh would have the culinary skills of Italians, Peruvians could do math like Chinese, straight people could put on a better gay pride parade than gay people, Zimbabweans would have built cities better than the French, Koreans drink the Irish under the table and Norwegians could operate a better meth lab than people from Jefferson County.

People just do what they do, generally, not always, just generally.

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PostApr 04, 2012#250

^Wow that simplistic and stereotypical response is like a throwback to the old STL Today comments

Thanks for the trip down memory lane Lee!

By the way--since I am of German ancestry does this mean getting into my Polish neighbor's personal space is expected of me?

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