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PostJul 01, 2014#51

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I think that's a pretty good vision.... just a couple thoughts:

- the hotel market is doing better and that's why we're seeing more action on that front. I could see a hotel component for this.
- I'm not sure about an additional grocer in the neighborhood but perhaps a relocated and expanded Straub's would be a good fit and make it more competitive with WF's. Trader Joe's also likes to follow WF into new markets, but I'd prefer Midtown Station for a TJ's.
- I think there also could be an office component here.... I wouldn't build anything spec, but I wouldn't doubt that a company may express interest in having a marquee location.
- For height, I'd like to see at least as high as the Chase for at least the building that would anchor the Lindell corner.
- I'd like to see at least 500 residential units (assuming it incorporates the south lot fronting Pine)
-If the hotel market keeps improving, sure. Since it's going to be years before this is finished, it's hard to say if more people will be coming to St. Louis than there are now or not.
-Straub's could move into this building and their old one could be replaced by a tower like the one they recently canceled.
-Offices are supposed to be part of it, right? I think it said so in the article. It would boost the block's daytime population. A college campus, maybe the size of Webster in the Arcade, would also be a big boost, especially if it's something similar to Cambridge's new St. Louis campus or the new dental school campus - - because then students from other cities will start looking toward St. Louis as the next step in their educational career. Maybe a grad school would be ideal for this location.
-I think this needs to be the tallest building in the CWE, especially if it's going to be "landmark." Not so long ago, someone said on the old nextstl website about how there was interest in building a "really, really tall" building here. I'm hoping it's at least as tall as Montgomery's proposed Clayton tower.
-500 units would be pretty good.

What ever happened to those murmurings of some towers going up near the Barnes MetroLink station?
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PostJul 01, 2014#52

STLEnginerd wrote:Secondly I know the hotel market is pretty Saturated in St. Louis, but I think in the Central West End there is a lot less capacity. I'd like to see a upscale but not top of market branded hotel such as a Hyatt Regency, Hilton, Embassy Suites, or Marriott, as a component of this project.
absolutely. i researched hotels recently for a couple of different colleagues traveling to St. Louis. of course, i wanted them to walk away with the best impression so i looked first for options around the CWE. unfortunately there's nothing affordable except the soon-to-be Holiday Inn Express on Lindell and the Parkview Hotel on Forest Park Ave. (The Chase isn't an option for most student travelers.) The only other thing near Forest Park is the small cluster of hotels near Hampton and Oakland, which isn't a picturesque part of town. Same with the Loop–Moonrise is the only option and it's on the pricey side. Both the Loop and the CWE are top tourist draws and have direct Metrolink access to the entire central corridor–how is it that they're so poorly served by hotels?
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PostJul 01, 2014#53

Exciting. Although at the same time it's so early on that any excitement has to be tempered. That seems like the trade-off with nextstl scoops: it's nice to be in the know, but it's also hard to tell what has legs and what doesn't.

I don't really see the need for retail or office, and I think it'd be tough to land an upper-middle hotel chain. Lindell & Kingshighway aren't retail corridors and the sidewalks along that corner aren't particularly welcoming (bus stops and traffic). A restaurant a few stories up overlooking the park would be cool, but other than that I'd rather see it supporting the retail along Euclid as opposed to spreading it out.

As for office, hasn't the Bank of America office building had a For Lease sign outside for as long as anyone can remember? Maybe a couple floors like they have in the Chase, but I just don't see the demand.

Hotel: all of those hotel, Hyatt, Radisson, Marriott, etc... Rely on business travel programs for their bread and butter. I suppose BJC would help fill rooms, but that might be a tough sell with Home2Suites coming online and the ever-proposed Drury waiting in the wings.

Mixed-use can be a great approach, but I really don't see the need for it on this particular site. The whole neighborhood is already mixed use. It'd be just fine if this was a purely residential development supporting all of the services and indulgences available around the rest of the hood.
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PostJul 01, 2014#54

high end retail with office and residential components please.
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PostJul 01, 2014#55

wabash wrote:Hotel: all of those hotel, Hyatt, Radisson, Marriott, etc... Rely on business travel programs for their bread and butter. I suppose BJC would help fill rooms, but that might be a tough sell with Home2Suites coming online and the ever-proposed Drury waiting in the wings.
Maybe this will get Drury off their backside and actually build something down in The Grove? How long have they been thinking about a hotel in the area; 7 or 8 years? Yes I know the Great Recession stopped everything, but still.
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PostJul 01, 2014#56

wabash wrote: I don't really see the need for retail or office, and I think it'd be tough to land an upper-middle hotel chain. Lindell & Kingshighway aren't retail corridors and the sidewalks along that corner aren't particularly welcoming (bus stops and traffic). A restaurant a few stories up overlooking the park would be cool, but other than that I'd rather see it supporting the retail along Euclid as opposed to spreading it out.

As for office, hasn't the Bank of America office building had a For Lease sign outside for as long as anyone can remember? Maybe a couple floors like they have in the Chase, but I just don't see the demand.

Hotel: all of those hotel, Hyatt, Radisson, Marriott, etc... Rely on business travel programs for their bread and butter. I suppose BJC would help fill rooms, but that might be a tough sell with Home2Suites coming online and the ever-proposed Drury waiting in the wings.

Mixed-use can be a great approach, but I really don't see the need for it on this particular site. The whole neighborhood is already mixed use. It'd be just fine if this was a purely residential development supporting all of the services and indulgences available around the rest of the hood.
My outlook is based on what the area will be like in 2020 and not 2015. It will be a much different place. If projections prove true, CWE will be at the heart of a truly bustling area extending from downtown to 170. By the time this development could expect to open, the Forest Park area alone will have seen IKEA, Citywalk, Midtown Station and Silo Lofts around for a few years, Cortex nearly built out with several thousand more jobs, BJC transformed, continued development along Delmar and perhaps even the South Zoo Campus underway -- and many hundreds more new units occupied. It also should be an improved regional economy with more jobs and office activity. These are the conditions that should be looked at as this project gets a work up... its the most desirable CWE property and the plans should reflect its enormous potential. Of course macro-economic trends may spoil ambitious plans that can be scaled back, but the prevailing attitude should be one of great optimism.
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PostJul 01, 2014#57

I'm optimistic as usual, but cautious. I feel burned a little by what happened at The Optimist site. Plus with all of the haggling over various development sites in the CWE lately - where proposals have been dwindled or snuffed out over the years - I'll be satisfied when the ground is cracked open.

Also, I feel that a mixed-used project (residential, hotel and retail) on the lots would be great. There seems to be a modest upswing in high-end stores looking at the CWE. Potential retailers will need space somewhere. And although I like the idea of concentrating stores on Euclid, keep in mind there is proposed retail for the Chase Park-Plaza Residences on the ground-level.

If done right, that view of Forest Park will be amazing - even better than The Chase-Park Residences, which would be a STRONG selling point. A mid-to-upscale hotel would be a great fit too. Again, imagine the views guests would have.

Chicago-Based Magellan Development Group is teaming up with Wanxiang America Real Estate Group to develop a 47-story tower consisting of residential units and a dual-branded hotel in Austin.

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PostJul 01, 2014#58

Austin? Who goes there? I never even hear about Austin. It's like one of those places you don't even realize is an actual city until you're an adult, kind of like Charlotte, NC. How can little blips on the radar like them be getting towers that big but we aren't? Oh, yeah, giant historic buildings downtown sitting empty don't help us very much in terms of getting new skyscrapers put up. Not to mention, our region doesn't have the population growth of those two, though I'm not sure why. I certainly would never consider southern states as potential places to make a life for myself.
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PostJul 02, 2014#59

What's there hotel-wise? Chase on one end, Holiday Inn Express (and maybe a couple similar semi-extended-stay business spots?) and the Indigo that's a GD Comfort Inn? With Cortex right there, there will be a real demand for non-niche hotels I imagine. Solid, mid to high tier day to day hotels.
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PostJul 02, 2014#60

Gateway City wrote:Austin? Who goes there? I never even hear about Austin. It's like one of those places you don't even realize is an actual city until you're an adult, kind of like Charlotte, NC. How can little blips on the radar like them be getting towers that big but we aren't? Oh, yeah, giant historic buildings downtown sitting empty don't help us very much in terms of getting new skyscrapers put up. Not to mention, our region doesn't have the population growth of those two, though I'm not sure why. I certainly would never consider southern states as potential places to make a life for myself.
I was just in Austin last month to visit. Downtown Austin makes downtown STL look like a third world country.
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PostJul 02, 2014#61

DT St. Louis isn't bad. I've hardly ever even heard of Austin, it's just one of those irrelevant cities like Salt Lake City that nobody cares about. It's like "Ohhhh yeah, that's a place somewhere, isn't it?" If it's in Texas, though, I'm not interested. What's in Austin anyway? It's not famous for anything. When I lived in WA, people knew a lot about St. Louis. But Austin? Nah, it's like nothing. Maybe a wannabe Portland from what I can tell. My friend Walker, who is from Texas, told me "Austin is cool." Anyway, we're getting off track.

I want to see something amazing go up on this parking lot. This should be the definitive tower built in St. Louis in the 2010's. We really can't let this one get messed up, but we have to also make sure NIMBYs don't mess it up, either. This must get built.
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PostJul 02, 2014#62

I hear nothing but good things about Austin actually. While i never been i bet its one of those places you visit and realize our downtown has a looooong way to go. Im talking just downtown though not STL as a whole
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PostJul 02, 2014#63

I never hear anything about Austin. This is probably the first time I've read/heard anything about it at all since I last saw my friend from Texas over a year ago. He said positive things about it, too. Well, he only said one thing about Austin: "It's cool." Obviously not cool enough to elaborate on like he did with Portland or Europe, though, which are two other places he has visited. He always talked sh-t on San Antonio. I think San Antonio seems alright, but Texas is just too damn hot. Actually, that's why he moved away. I understand.
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PostJul 02, 2014#64

Austin's alright. Its always been a nice college town with a great live music scene and good food that more recently has morphed into a tech town seeing monster growth. Of course it has a fraction of the historic bones and cultural amenities of our city.
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PostJul 02, 2014#65

Yeah, screw it. Too hot there anyway. Anyways, back to these surface lots...
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PostJul 02, 2014#66

^ To bring it back to developing vacant lots, though, the thing to keep in mind about Austin, Seattle and other cities that you may prefer to be shot in the face instead of having to live in is that they are experiencing incredible growth... looking at Austin, they have gained more residents since 1990 than live in the entire City of Saint Louis.

We seem to be doing fairly well with development given our stagnant regional growth, and if we can somehow accelerate job and population growth that gets us closer to the national average we'll be in fine shape and able to build upon a lot more vacant lots than we are now. I'm not even sure if I want to see the boom growth of some of these other cities as it leads to a host of troublesome issues, but a steady growth of just .5% - 1% or so a year would be grand. And I think achievable.
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PostJul 02, 2014#67

roger wyoming II wrote:Austin's alright. Its always been a nice college town with a great live music scene and good food that more recently has morphed into a tech town seeing monster growth. Of course it has a fraction of the historic bones and cultural amenities of our city.
And horrible, mind numbing traffic. But the U of T coeds almost make up for it. :wink:

PostJul 02, 2014#68

nickfindley wrote:What's there hotel-wise? Chase on one end, Holiday Inn Express (and maybe a couple similar semi-extended-stay business spots?) and the Indigo that's a GD Comfort Inn? With Cortex right there, there will be a real demand for non-niche hotels I imagine. Solid, mid to high tier day to day hotels.
Agreed: something from the Marriott, Hilton or IHG groups. That's definitely missing from the CWE.
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PostJul 02, 2014#69

I like Austin, but overall, it is just okay. Once out of downtown, it's kind of boring, but it is still a beautiful, hilly region.

One great selling point with Austin is its downtown area. It is very, very vibrant - both day and night. Even though there are some smaller nodes of interest in the metro area - like Round Rock (Round Rock is their Chesterfield - outlet malls etc. etc.), downtown Austin is metro Austin's main hub for business and entertainment. Everything is downtown or is close-by, like UT and the State Capitol complex etc.

Austin is a young city with LOTS of young people, and those young people, in my opinion, will cause Austin to explode into a major metro within 20-30 years.

Also, tech complexes such as Samsung, Google, Dell and others dot the economic landscape. And because it is growing at a rapid clip the highways are woefully congested. It's probably a good headache for regional officials to have. They have added light-rail in recent years, plus they are proposing $1.4-billion in transportation projects - including a light-rail extension.

Downtown St. Louis isn't bad, but it could be better. It used to be worse. Unfortunately, St. Louis is too sprawled out with many nodes of commerce and entertainment. I don't know if that is necessarily a bad thing, however, it would be nice if the St. Louis region did at least manage to center itself around the Central Corridor (downtown, Clayton, Midtown and the CWE) more.

I had a twofold purpose for posting the Austin project. One.... just to demonstrate how a mixed-use project could look great over-looking FoPo. And two......how Austin is literally chumping bigger cities like St. Louis, Cleveland, Detroit with their big projects. Even Nashville (a competitor to Austin) is proposing great projects while St. Louis can't even get a 14-story building out of the ground.

I wish the Koplar Team the best - because they are gonna need it.
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PostJul 02, 2014#70

arch city wrote:Even Nashville (a competitor to Austin) is proposing great projects while St. Louis can't even get a 14-story building out of the ground.
That's the worst thing. Only in St. Louis would a project like the Optimist site get killed so quickly.
arch city wrote:I wish the Koplar Team the best - because they are gonna need it.
Is that the CWE NIMBY machinery I hear firing up again?
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PostJul 02, 2014#71

^ Recent rebound in commercial office space is literally being driven by tech companies, specifically large tech companies. You are getting some big winners such as Austin and even bigger winners in the Bay Area and a lot of others wishing to be Austin including St. Louis and dreaming to be on West Coast. You got maybe Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, and a few others with decent office leases/developments via regional oil booms and or a large local corporate moves.

Read this article from the San Fran biz journal that was from the other day. At least 15 companies, mostly tech, are pursuing leases of 100k sq feet or more.

Large office tenants can't find enough space in San Francisco, East Bay running out, too

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco ... t-bay.html

Where do I put hope in St. Louis - It strength in financial services with a ready made tower in ATT One Center that would be ideal for a large back office relocation for a IT or Financial Firm. The second, CORTEX is an avenue to attract West Coast specifically Bay area biotech firms that are competing for ever dwindling space and rising rents.
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PostJul 02, 2014#72

arch city wrote:Downtown St. Louis isn't bad, but it could be better. It used to be worse. Unfortunately, St. Louis is too sprawled out with many nodes of commerce and entertainment. I don't know if that is necessarily a bad thing, however, it would be nice if the St. Louis region did at least manage to center itself around the Central Corridor (downtown, Clayton, Midtown and the CWE) more.
St. Louis is disjointed. Throughout the region, there will be a cluster of awesomeness surrounded by boring nothingness or in many case just flat-out blight. Luckily, in the Central Corridor, things are changing, as we all know. In addition, notice that all newly proposed entertainment destinations are in the Central Corridor. Sure, I wish things like the Hollywood Casino and Westport Plaza, with more urban designs, would have been built in the City. Unfortunately, there's so much sprawl that people in St. Charles and Chesterfield need their own entertainment closer to their own homes.
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PostJul 08, 2014#73

Being that St. Louis is a rising BioTech hub I want this concept for this site.



Preferably with the design modified to suit the uses i stated in a previous post.
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PostJul 08, 2014#74

I like it. Thanks for sharing.

It certainly would "push the envelope" in St. Louis, but would the ultra-conservative approach to architectural design that has emerged in St. Louis allow something like this to go up?

I think, more importantly, because it sits across from one of the nation's and world's best urban parks - and - because St. Louis is a premier plant science hub in the nation and world - a funky avant-garde green-designed mixed-use project would be awesome for that site.
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PostJul 08, 2014#75

Just our luck. We'd build this in St. Louis, and then a twister would come along and straighten it into another Eagleton Courthouse Tower. (Let me think...North America, counterclockwise -- yes it could happen.)
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