urbanSTL

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Jun 19, 2022

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jun 19, 2022

da_GOAT wrote: ↑

Jun 17, 2022

Especially with a national attraction like the arch and daily Amtrak trains. Most of Kansas City's visitors will be staying at least 2 weeks so there would be plenty of time to explore the states of Missouri and uhm... Kansas if one desired.

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble. This is not how World Cup fans travel. They follow their team. And the teams usually play in 2/3 different stadiums in the group round (roughly 10 days). And they want to be with the World Cup action; the fanzone in each hosting city. They are coming to see the World Cup, not MidAmerica. Any extra days they spend in KC will probably be going to matches of other countries/partying with fans of other countries.

It's an absolute catastrophe that KC got this spot over STL. A shameful indictment of the leadership of this region that over the last 25 years ***** KC has leapfrogged STL in soccer status in the country. 

St Louis literally didn’t have a venue for it. There is plenty to complain about leadership but this isn’t one.

St. Louis is listed as a possible team practice location/hub/whatever they call it in the bid. So if we end up getting that I think we could see fans come over if their team is practicing here and has a game(s) in KC. Again not a huge number but there could be some overflow.

I also don’t 100% agree with fans are JUST going to be following their team. If they are coming all the way here I would imagine a fair amount come early or stay late to do some tourist things. Maybe they only can go to one game but want to spend more time here. Again not saying it’s a huge number but I think we would be silly not to market ourselves to then. Whether it be when game locations are announced and if Germany is playing in KC to say fly nonstop in/out of STL. Set up busses are train ticket packages to get to from KC.

I think there are ways to pull some people in. Again not saying we will be overflowing with people but I think you can peel some off if done right.

The 25 years of leadership that failed to get STL an MLS team, to capitalize on the massive explosion of professional soccer in America, that's what I was talking about. Gets a big fat effing F-.  Had we not fallen behind the KCs and Cincinnati's and freaking Atlantas....there's no doubt a plan could have been put together to have the Dome ready for 2026. Problem is, for soccer like most other things, Saint Louis has become an afterthought. 

You can not agree but have you been to a World Cup or a EUROs? I have. The diehards who are willing to shell out the insane costs associated (in the Premier League a decent ticket costs 25-35 pounds, foreign sports tickets are much cheaper than American sports and World Cup prices are on par with American prices) with World Cup are coming to follow their team, drink beer, and party. And they're saving every penny to do it. It's mainly dudes. They are going to stay in America as long as their team continues winning and probably not a second more. It's honestly a super hard thing to plan. The other people coming are being comped by marketing/sales. They are probably flying in for 2 nights for a $1000+ dollar ticket to stand in the boxes and drink and barely watch the game. And in the opening rounds, they probably aren't even flying in for those games. It'll probably be American business folk.

Football travel is not for couples and retirees who might bramble about the massive American continent and check out Saint Louis, a city they probably never heard of before. Will there be some wandering about? Sure. But for 99% of people that already spent on airfare, tickets, hotel, at inflated prices..are they really going to extend the day they have in KC to check out STL? Or will they extend NY and check out the east coast? Or MIA or LA or SEA or what have you. Just be realistic. Especially when you consider they will be flying into/out of cities not named KC. 

Sorry if this comes off as rude or condescending or what have you. It's just something I'm very passionate about and so entirely pissed to see the region piss away another massive asset actually during my lifetime. 

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jun 20, 2022

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Jun 19, 2022

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jun 19, 2022

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble. This is not how World Cup fans travel. They follow their team. And the teams usually play in 2/3 different stadiums in the group round (roughly 10 days). And they want to be with the World Cup action; the fanzone in each hosting city. They are coming to see the World Cup, not MidAmerica. Any extra days they spend in KC will probably be going to matches of other countries/partying with fans of other countries.

It's an absolute catastrophe that KC got this spot over STL. A shameful indictment of the leadership of this region that over the last 25 years ***** KC has leapfrogged STL in soccer status in the country. 

St Louis literally didn’t have a venue for it. There is plenty to complain about leadership but this isn’t one.

St. Louis is listed as a possible team practice location/hub/whatever they call it in the bid. So if we end up getting that I think we could see fans come over if their team is practicing here and has a game(s) in KC. Again not a huge number but there could be some overflow.

I also don’t 100% agree with fans are JUST going to be following their team. If they are coming all the way here I would imagine a fair amount come early or stay late to do some tourist things. Maybe they only can go to one game but want to spend more time here. Again not saying it’s a huge number but I think we would be silly not to market ourselves to then. Whether it be when game locations are announced and if Germany is playing in KC to say fly nonstop in/out of STL. Set up busses are train ticket packages to get to from KC.

I think there are ways to pull some people in. Again not saying we will be overflowing with people but I think you can peel some off if done right.

The 25 years of leadership that failed to get STL an MLS team, to capitalize on the massive explosion of professional soccer in America, that's what I was talking about. Gets a big fat effing F-.  Had we not fallen behind the KCs and Cincinnati's and freaking Atlantas....there's no doubt a plan could have been put together to have the Dome ready for 2026. Problem is, for soccer like most other things, Saint Louis has become an afterthought. 

You can not agree but have you been to a World Cup or a EUROs? I have. The diehards who are willing to shell out the insane costs associated (in the Premier League a decent ticket costs 25-35 pounds, foreign sports tickets are much cheaper than American sports and World Cup prices are on par with American prices) with World Cup are coming to follow their team, drink beer, and party. And they're saving every penny to do it. It's mainly dudes. They are going to stay in America as long as their team continues winning and probably not a second more. It's honestly a super hard thing to plan. The other people coming are being comped by marketing/sales. They are probably flying in for 2 nights for a $1000+ dollar ticket to stand in the boxes and drink and barely watch the game. And in the opening rounds, they probably aren't even flying in for those games. It'll probably be American business folk.

Football travel is not for couples and retirees who might bramble about the massive American continent and check out Saint Louis, a city they probably never heard of before. Will there be some wandering about? Sure. But for 99% of people that already spent on airfare, tickets, hotel, at inflated prices..are they really going to extend the day they have in KC to check out STL? Or will they extend NY and check out the east coast? Or MIA or LA or SEA or what have you. Just be realistic. Especially when you consider they will be flying into/out of cities not named KC. 

Sorry if this comes off as rude or condescending or what have you. It's just something I'm very passionate about and so entirely pissed to see the region piss away another massive asset actually during my lifetime. 

There is no realistic amount of money or renovation that could have gotten a World Cup game at the dome. Short of having a new stadium it wasn’t going to come here. And I’m not convinced the proposed Rams stadium would have been big enough to host one either.

And again I’m not talking about some huge influx of visitors for STL from the KC games. I’ve said multiple times I don’t think we are going to be overrun by visitors. But I think there will be some, especially if a team is training here. And I think there are ways to market to fans help. But no, it won’t be the city over run by soccer fans or anything close to that. If nothing else it could be quite a bit cheaper to fly in and out of here and add a day or two on the trip than to try to get in and out of KC.

da_GOAT wrote: ↑

Jun 17, 2022

Especially with a national attraction like the arch and daily Amtrak trains. Most of Kansas City's visitors will be staying at least 2 weeks so there would be plenty of time to explore the states of Missouri and uhm... Kansas if one desired.

There does seem to be this opportunity for STL.  Most of my approx 2-week Euro travels have been multi-city/multi-country so it's plausible that will be the case with at least some WC travelers, possibly over 10% maybe much more.  And KCI airport will be a zoo and might be tough to fly into so using STL to base flights out of is also very possible with train into downtown KC.  I suspect STL will see more overflow/spillover than might be expected.  Hopefully Amtrak will be able to run trains more often during WC, with some express and late night.  Maybe structure a Euro rail style 2-week pass for period with perhaps state aid.

And KC could probably use Uber drivers from broader region.  STL Uber/Lyft drivers who have family/friends in KC to stay might want a piece of the action, especially futbol fan drivers that may want to check out watch parties as well.

dweebe wrote: ↑

Jun 21, 2022

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jun 20, 2022

jshank83 wrote: ↑

Jun 19, 2022

St Louis literally didn’t have a venue for it. There is plenty to complain about leadership but this isn’t one.

St. Louis is listed as a possible team practice location/hub/whatever they call it in the bid. So if we end up getting that I think we could see fans come over if their team is practicing here and has a game(s) in KC. Again not a huge number but there could be some overflow.

I also don’t 100% agree with fans are JUST going to be following their team. If they are coming all the way here I would imagine a fair amount come early or stay late to do some tourist things. Maybe they only can go to one game but want to spend more time here. Again not saying it’s a huge number but I think we would be silly not to market ourselves to then. Whether it be when game locations are announced and if Germany is playing in KC to say fly nonstop in/out of STL. Set up busses are train ticket packages to get to from KC.

I think there are ways to pull some people in. Again not saying we will be overflowing with people but I think you can peel some off if done right.

The 25 years of leadership that failed to get STL an MLS team, to capitalize on the massive explosion of professional soccer in America, that's what I was talking about. Gets a big fat effing F-.  Had we not fallen behind the KCs and Cincinnati's and freaking Atlantas....there's no doubt a plan could have been put together to have the Dome ready for 2026. Problem is, for soccer like most other things, Saint Louis has become an afterthought. 

You can not agree but have you been to a World Cup or a EUROs? I have. The diehards who are willing to shell out the insane costs associated (in the Premier League a decent ticket costs 25-35 pounds, foreign sports tickets are much cheaper than American sports and World Cup prices are on par with American prices) with World Cup are coming to follow their team, drink beer, and party. And they're saving every penny to do it. It's mainly dudes. They are going to stay in America as long as their team continues winning and probably not a second more. It's honestly a super hard thing to plan. The other people coming are being comped by marketing/sales. They are probably flying in for 2 nights for a $1000+ dollar ticket to stand in the boxes and drink and barely watch the game. And in the opening rounds, they probably aren't even flying in for those games. It'll probably be American business folk.

Football travel is not for couples and retirees who might bramble about the massive American continent and check out Saint Louis, a city they probably never heard of before. Will there be some wandering about? Sure. But for 99% of people that already spent on airfare, tickets, hotel, at inflated prices..are they really going to extend the day they have in KC to check out STL? Or will they extend NY and check out the east coast? Or MIA or LA or SEA or what have you. Just be realistic. Especially when you consider they will be flying into/out of cities not named KC. 

Sorry if this comes off as rude or condescending or what have you. It's just something I'm very passionate about and so entirely pissed to see the region piss away another massive asset actually during my lifetime. 

There's no reason to flail arms around and dump on everyone that doesn't fully agree with your anger because KC pulled a minor coup in securing World Cup matches at Arrowhead. They didn't steal the bid/games from St. Louis: they definitely stole it from Chicago and possibly Nashville. 

Would it be nice if St. Louis had one of the nicest open air stadiums in America that seated 76,000 people? Yes. 
Would it be great if we had a family like the Hunts who had supported soccer for many years? Yes.

But you know what happens after the international visitors leave KC the summer of 2026? The Royals will keep on drawing 1/2 to 1/3 what the Cardinals do, the T-Mobile Arena will still not have an NHL team playing in it and the KC MLS team will still be playing in a stadium about 25 minutes from their downtown.

Well let's see. 30 years ago St Louis was regularly hosting the two major USNT games for World Cup and Olympics. There was a Saint Louis player in every World Cup. The Ambush was topping NPSL in attendance. And SLU was still advancing deep into the NCAAs. 

As you said, now we're losing out to the Nashville's.

This is an appallingly fast decline in St. Louis' soccer stature.

And in classic Saint Louis fashion what's your response? We got the Cardinals! Everything is good!

Excuse my flailing about. I used to care much more and tried to figure out how to do something about it. But I've moved on.  Too many people are happy with the status quo.

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jun 22, 2022

dweebe wrote: ↑

Jun 21, 2022

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jun 20, 2022

The 25 years of leadership that failed to get STL an MLS team, to capitalize on the massive explosion of professional soccer in America, that's what I was talking about. Gets a big fat effing F-.  Had we not fallen behind the KCs and Cincinnati's and freaking Atlantas....there's no doubt a plan could have been put together to have the Dome ready for 2026. Problem is, for soccer like most other things, Saint Louis has become an afterthought. 

You can not agree but have you been to a World Cup or a EUROs? I have. The diehards who are willing to shell out the insane costs associated (in the Premier League a decent ticket costs 25-35 pounds, foreign sports tickets are much cheaper than American sports and World Cup prices are on par with American prices) with World Cup are coming to follow their team, drink beer, and party. And they're saving every penny to do it. It's mainly dudes. They are going to stay in America as long as their team continues winning and probably not a second more. It's honestly a super hard thing to plan. The other people coming are being comped by marketing/sales. They are probably flying in for 2 nights for a $1000+ dollar ticket to stand in the boxes and drink and barely watch the game. And in the opening rounds, they probably aren't even flying in for those games. It'll probably be American business folk.

Football travel is not for couples and retirees who might bramble about the massive American continent and check out Saint Louis, a city they probably never heard of before. Will there be some wandering about? Sure. But for 99% of people that already spent on airfare, tickets, hotel, at inflated prices..are they really going to extend the day they have in KC to check out STL? Or will they extend NY and check out the east coast? Or MIA or LA or SEA or what have you. Just be realistic. Especially when you consider they will be flying into/out of cities not named KC. 

Sorry if this comes off as rude or condescending or what have you. It's just something I'm very passionate about and so entirely pissed to see the region piss away another massive asset actually during my lifetime. 

There's no reason to flail arms around and dump on everyone that doesn't fully agree with your anger because KC pulled a minor coup in securing World Cup matches at Arrowhead. They didn't steal the bid/games from St. Louis: they definitely stole it from Chicago and possibly Nashville. 

Would it be nice if St. Louis had one of the nicest open air stadiums in America that seated 76,000 people? Yes. 
Would it be great if we had a family like the Hunts who had supported soccer for many years? Yes.

But you know what happens after the international visitors leave KC the summer of 2026? The Royals will keep on drawing 1/2 to 1/3 what the Cardinals do, the T-Mobile Arena will still not have an NHL team playing in it and the KC MLS team will still be playing in a stadium about 25 minutes from their downtown.

Well let's see. 30 years ago St Louis was regularly hosting the two major USNT games for World Cup and Olympics. There was a Saint Louis player in every World Cup. The Ambush was topping NPSL in attendance. And SLU was still advancing deep into the NCAAs. 

As you said, now we're losing out to the Nashville's.

This is an appallingly fast decline in St. Louis' soccer stature.

And in classic Saint Louis fashion what's your response? We got the Cardinals! Everything is good!

Excuse my flailing about. I used to care much more and tried to figure out how to do something about it. But I've moved on.  Too many people are happy with the status quo.

Where do you want them to play? Can you name literally a single venue within 50 miles where FIFA would allow St Louis to host a World Cup game? What is your solution? In your comments I do not see a single viable idea for what the city should do to host a game. No, FIFA will not allow a World Cup match to be played at the dome, which is quite obvious viewing the poor quality field at exhibition matches staged at the dome or noting that World Cup games are never played indoors. There is no amount of renovation that could bring the dome inline with FIFA standards for a World Cup match.

Want to know why St Louis didn't get a World Cup game? It has nothing to do with soccer and everything to do with not having an outdoor (American) football stadium with real grass. Every thing you have said about soccer culture, soccer stature, leadership, and whatever else is entirely irrelevant (and in my opinion mostly inaccurate) to the fact that St Louis does not have a venue for this event. Not even close. Not even when the new soccer stadium is completed.

Kansas City is getting a game because they have the Chiefs and Arrowhead Stadium. St Louis will not have a venue capable of hosting a World Cup match until one of three things happens: 1) A local American football team is successful enough to warrant a 70,000 seat outdoor stadium, 2) the MLS team gets popular enough to build a new stadium of this size, or 3) we foolishly decide to build such a venue that will sit unused for 99% of its life. None of this is a reflection on the state of soccer in St Louis.

As to St Louis hosting non-World Cup matches, of course we have and will continue to do so in the future especially with the new stadium. Once again, this has nothing to do with hosting the tournament because guess what? World Cup matches draw more fans and have more venue requirements than qualifiers and friendlies.

_nomad_ wrote: ↑

Jun 22, 2022

RuskiSTL wrote: ↑

Jun 22, 2022

dweebe wrote: ↑

Jun 21, 2022

There's no reason to flail arms around and dump on everyone that doesn't fully agree with your anger because KC pulled a minor coup in securing World Cup matches at Arrowhead. They didn't steal the bid/games from St. Louis: they definitely stole it from Chicago and possibly Nashville. 

Would it be nice if St. Louis had one of the nicest open air stadiums in America that seated 76,000 people? Yes. 
Would it be great if we had a family like the Hunts who had supported soccer for many years? Yes.

But you know what happens after the international visitors leave KC the summer of 2026? The Royals will keep on drawing 1/2 to 1/3 what the Cardinals do, the T-Mobile Arena will still not have an NHL team playing in it and the KC MLS team will still be playing in a stadium about 25 minutes from their downtown.

Well let's see. 30 years ago St Louis was regularly hosting the two major USNT games for World Cup and Olympics. There was a Saint Louis player in every World Cup. The Ambush was topping NPSL in attendance. And SLU was still advancing deep into the NCAAs. 

As you said, now we're losing out to the Nashville's.

This is an appallingly fast decline in St. Louis' soccer stature.

And in classic Saint Louis fashion what's your response? We got the Cardinals! Everything is good!

Excuse my flailing about. I used to care much more and tried to figure out how to do something about it. But I've moved on.  Too many people are happy with the status quo.

Where do you want them to play? Can you name literally a single venue within 50 miles where FIFA would allow St Louis to host a World Cup game? What is your solution? In your comments I do not see a single viable idea for what the city should do to host a game. No, FIFA will not allow a World Cup match to be played at the dome, which is quite obvious viewing the poor quality field at exhibition matches staged at the dome or noting that World Cup games are never played indoors. There is no amount of renovation that could bring the dome inline with FIFA standards for a World Cup match.

Want to know why St Louis didn't get a World Cup game? It has nothing to do with soccer and everything to do with not having an outdoor (American) football stadium with real grass. Every thing you have said about soccer culture, soccer stature, leadership, and whatever else is entirely irrelevant (and in my opinion mostly inaccurate) to the fact that St Louis does not have a venue for this event. Not even close. Not even when the new soccer stadium is completed.

Kansas City is getting a game because they have the Chiefs and Arrowhead Stadium. St Louis will not have a venue capable of hosting a World Cup match until one of three things happens: 1) A local American football team is successful enough to warrant a 70,000 seat outdoor stadium, 2) the MLS team gets popular enough to build a new stadium of this size, or 3) we foolishly decide to build such a venue that will sit unused for 99% of its life. None of this is a reflection on the state of soccer in St Louis.

As to St Louis hosting non-World Cup matches, of course we have and will continue to do so in the future especially with the new stadium. Once again, this has nothing to do with hosting the tournament because guess what? World Cup matches draw more fans and have more venue requirements than qualifiers and friendlies.

As mentioned. We didn’t have a good venue up until now even for non World Cup games.

That said, precovid we were getting quite a few soccer matches. I’m still a little surprised they did a World Cup qualifier at Busch last time around since it really isn’t a good setup for soccer.

With the new stadium coming online we should see a lot more games. I went on the tour yesterday and they mentioned how the setup with the practice fields next to the stadium gives them an advantage in getting events since everything can be in one place.  Getting gold cup games was specifically mentioned. So going forward I think we will see the USMNT and other soccer events coming thru at a regular pace again now that we have a real soccer stadium and are not wedging the field into Busch or offering up the dome.

There is no reason we wouldn’t get as many or more games going forward than Nashville/KC as long as it doesn’t require a NFL sized stadium.

I believe that's CONCACAF's jurisdiction, not FIFA's.  CONCACAF makes terrible decisions all the time. 

Delete

dweebe wrote: ↑

Jun 22, 2022

The one thing is everyone is so tired of FIFA's crap the World Cup could soon end up back in America. Going forward tournaments will only come from mainline countries with existing stadiums and probably in combinations. But even if the World Cup comes back soon to the US/North America and out of rotation because nobody else wants to pay FIFA bribes, St. Louis still won't get games. Not unless we can miracle the NFL back and a 70,000+ football stadium that fits a soccer pitch gets built. That's the price of admission.

I think, going forward, we'll be seeing a ton more group hosted WC's versus just one country hosting.  Outside of the US, Several European nations & China, there probably aren't a ton of countries that can (non-problematically) meet WC standards.  Would expect to see a North African WC soon, joint venture between South American countries (excluding Brazil/Argentina), Oceana/Australia and SE Europe.

Can we put this to bed? It's not a project. Nobody is building anything anywhere. It's wonderful for the soccer fans among us that KC will host this event, but it's not relevant to this forum. Stadium design debate have a place in the urbanism thread, I think, but not here. Transit debates (of which I'm guilty) probably belong in the transit thread. And sports discussions in the relevant sports thread. (And I for one am deeply weary of hearing about non-St. Louis sports. Sorry to say this, but I just cannot make myself care about this. At all.)

IN actual development news, SomeraRoad has released its first renderings of its massive redevelopment plans for West Bottoms. Will include new construction as well. In addition, another developer (known for rehabbing historic buildings) from LA has recently purchased 8 buildings and a surface lot in WB as well.

^Additionally, the KCATA endorsed incentive requests for Northpoint's redevelopment of the Park Reserve site at 31st and Main into hundreds of apartments as well as the project at 39th and State Line (Jamestown Square). 

Other updates...

• The PIEA Board approved an incentive request for the long-planned development at 3rd and Grand. The request previously failed but was approved today because 40% prevailing wage was added in and supposedly Mayor Q appointed 4-pro development people to the PIEA board. 
• Mayor Q and City Manager Platt both spoke up recently about the need to reimagine and get the Plaza ready for the future. Ideas are being kicked around but, in my view, I think the Plaza Tennis Courts will be replaced with a mixed-use building and I heard from a very reliable source that a local buyer is in talks to buy the Plaza.
• A West Plaza development at 4711 Belleview also returned with Lane4 being the developer and El Dorado being the architect (below).
• A Columbus Park development that'll add 10 apartments and 10 townhomes to the neighborhood was approved at the City Council today. The project will replace a vacant lot next to a highway (second photo).

First, great! Looks like a lovely project. Second . . . whose idea was it to put a toy freight car truck in the middle of a bunch of kids? I would worry about someone finding a way to roll that unless you weld the axles to the frames. And even undersized it'd make a bloody mess of anything that got under it. Literally. Anyway, apart from that . . . love it!

^Ha! I thought similar about the train car. That might be a component that I don't see happening anyways since it would look out of place somewhat. But again, this is a former industrial area so they might play on it for a theme.

The West Bottoms project is massive. You don't really get a sense of scale till you actually go down there and you realize how vast the area is and how much land SomeraRoad owns. Throw in that Los Angeles owner, who will also likely develop stuff there, and you have a massive redevelopment effort the likes of which hasn't been seen in Kansas City. It's also wild to think that the goal is to be entirely done by 2035 (I know it's 12.5 years away, but this is an area that's basically untested save for West Bottoms Flats, I imagine this will be done sooner than 2035). SomeraRoad's plans for 1166 apartments, up to 50 hotel rooms, green space and other things are all very ambitious. The infill sounds like it'll make up a majority of this at 909 new units. When you place the properties they own on a map, and look at site plans uploaded to Compass KC, it seems St. Louis, Union and 11th Streets will see the biggest changes as a result of these developments.

dweebe wrote: ↑

Jun 24, 2022

Sorry, I'll shut up and delete my posts. I didn't mean to anger you and take this thread off tangent.

No need to go that far. Just trying to get this thread back onto KC developments. Maybe we need a new thread somewhere else, but that's for the mods to decide. I don't think anything requires deleting. I may have come across to harshly. I was neither offended, nor did I mean offense.

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑

Jun 24, 2022

dweebe wrote: ↑

Jun 24, 2022

Sorry, I'll shut up and delete my posts. I didn't mean to anger you and take this thread off tangent.

No need to go that far. Just trying to get this thread back onto KC developments. Maybe we need a new thread somewhere else, but that's for the mods to decide. I don't think anything requires deleting. I may have come across to harshly. I was neither offended, nor did I mean offense.

We got way off track. It was probably time for someone to steer things back. And it probably should have been moved to the STL WC thread anyway. I’ll go back to rarely checking this thread and let you all get back to it.

^Is there a proposal to build new venues? Maybe we need a good general "everything goes" sort of area. Thought we had one, but I see now that we do not. Maybe I'm simply misunderstanding the purpose to this thread, but I'd have thought of it as specifically dedicated to Kansas City development, and that things like sports and metro comparisons belonged in other areas. But . . . those areas don't really seem to exist. Maybe this is a good time to start a non-St. Louis stuff section of the General Topics. Good question.