Details, details ...innov8ion wrote:For what it's worth, Doug, many African-American downtown residents aren't too pleased with the crime stemming from Lure either.
Aside from the pesky gunfire...lukethedrifter wrote:Not all that different really from the Showdown in Tower Grover Park that pitted partying and oft times obnoxious kickballers against nosy NIMBY racist neighbors.
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I played kickball in the league. That means I was suspect?
If I am black on Washington Avenue partying at Lure this means I am a threat to the neighborhood and possibly dangerous? Or at the least worthy of being profiled?
The place you're taking about was the former Dapper Dan's now MeShon's. The food is excellent and people are friendly. It can get rowdy there sometimes but they're very much aware that they are under scrutiny. Perhaps because some of their patrons are young dressing "gangster" and "wrappers."
I am sure people are not happy about shootings. I am not. But the reaction shouldn't be profiling, closing down rap venues, stopping cars without probable cause, and private security patrolling Washington Avenue. People have rights and this isn't a police state. Again if you have a problem with gun violence then how about joining or starting a sustained City wide effort against it? How about donating on the national level to groups which advocate for stricter gun laws? Maybe you could propose a solution that does not target an entire group of people and presume they're guilty before innocent, while further marginalizing them to one geographic area of the City. It seems that ghetto related activity only causes real disgust when it's in the wrong neighborhood.
If I am black on Washington Avenue partying at Lure this means I am a threat to the neighborhood and possibly dangerous? Or at the least worthy of being profiled?
The place you're taking about was the former Dapper Dan's now MeShon's. The food is excellent and people are friendly. It can get rowdy there sometimes but they're very much aware that they are under scrutiny. Perhaps because some of their patrons are young dressing "gangster" and "wrappers."
I am sure people are not happy about shootings. I am not. But the reaction shouldn't be profiling, closing down rap venues, stopping cars without probable cause, and private security patrolling Washington Avenue. People have rights and this isn't a police state. Again if you have a problem with gun violence then how about joining or starting a sustained City wide effort against it? How about donating on the national level to groups which advocate for stricter gun laws? Maybe you could propose a solution that does not target an entire group of people and presume they're guilty before innocent, while further marginalizing them to one geographic area of the City. It seems that ghetto related activity only causes real disgust when it's in the wrong neighborhood.
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Guy, the argument is to minimize people who possess and use guns from drinking alcohol from hanging out causing problems. Thus far, these problems seem to be stemming from a common theme. You cannot suggest that eliminating the common theme (hip-hop night, or whatever it's being advertised as) would also eliminate a large percentage of the gun usage problem. This is not a discussion about gun-control laws and the repealing of the 2nd Amendment. It is about getting rid of gunfire from neighborhoods.Doug wrote:I played kickball in the league. That means I was suspect?
If I am black on Washington Avenue partying at Lure this means I am a nuance to the neighborhood and possibly dangerous? Or at the least worthy of being profiled?
The place you're taking about was the former Dapper Dan's now MeShon's. The food is excellent and people are friendly. It can get rowdy there sometimes but they're very much aware that they are under scrutiny. Perhaps because some of their patrons are young dressing "gangster" and "wrappers."
I am sure people are not happy about shootings. I am not. But the reaction shouldn't be profiling, closing down rap venues, stopping cars without probable cause, and private security patrolling Washington Avenue. People have rights and this isn't a police state. Again if you have a problem with gun violence then how about joining or starting a sustained City wide effort against it? How about donating on the national level to groups which advocate for stricter gun laws? Maybe you could propose a solution that does not target an entire group of people and presume they're guilty before innocent, while further marginalizing them to one geographic area of the City. It seems that ghetto related activity only causes real disgust when it's in the wrong neighborhood.
Exactly. The discussion involves removing hip hop night from downtown in order that the gun usage goes back to its native environment. This action does not involve any city wide initiative addressing problems such as these, but rather only change within one neighborhood not multiple neighborhoods. The imperative remains removing the problem immediately not solving it. Such outcome solves nothing. Gun violence becomes acceptable because it's the responsibility of those residing on Natural Bridge. We pushed the bad element out thereby if they don't they must be lazy or not care as much. Maybe they like the violence. Wait, isn't that why we kicked them off Washington Avenue? Obviously a self-fulfilling prophesy.ricke002 wrote:You cannot suggest that eliminating the common theme (hip-hop night, or whatever it's being advertised as) would also eliminate a large percentage of the gun usage problem. This is not a discussion about gun-control laws and the repealing of the 2nd Amendment. It is about getting rid of gunfire from neighborhoods.
Did anyone ever consider that simply "gentrifying" out the "bad element" never actually eliminates the problem? Poverty and joblessness still exist in these areas. Political participation, organizing, is tied to economic status. Crime propagates when those residents who work hard are outnumbered, scared, and lack the resources to organize, like those in other politically and economically advantaged areas. No amount of street barriers, policing, or banning of hip hop night will reduce overall crime insofar as we only care about the affluent areas like Washington Avenue, the Central West End, or Lafayette Square. St. Louis will remain a City divided - and a City with high crime - until it drops this provincial, fragmented arrogance which holds that one single neighborhood can separate itself from areas of rampant crime less than two miles away...and that doing so is a good idea!
Though I could be wrong as I often am on these subjects. Maybe if we simply widened Delmar into something like Truman Boulevard, turned it into the real "thug superhighway," then fewer criminals would walk into downtown and scare away West County loft dwellers?
The more barriers we built the worse it got and arose our divested areas. Close the club, shut it down. But this will continue until we address these larger problems across our City. We shouldn't expect gentrification, defensible space planning, and policing to adequately resolve decades of neglect. Responsibility does not end where city maps define neighborhoods boundaries.
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Doug wrote:
Exactly. The discussion involves removing hip hop night from downtown in order that the gun usage goes back to its native environment. This action does not involve any city wide initiative addressing problems such as these, but rather only change within one neighborhood not multiple neighborhoods. The imperative remains removing the problem immediately not solving it. Such outcome solves nothing. Gun violence becomes acceptable because it's the responsibility of those residing on Natural Bridge. We pushed the bad element out thereby if they don't they must be lazy or not care as much. Maybe they like the violence. Wait, isn't that why we kicked them off Washington Avenue? Obviously a self-fulfilling prophesy.
OR..it removes a centralized meeting point for numbers of gun holders to get together, get some drinks in them, get into pissing matches and then whip out their guns. People sitting at home with guns isn't the problem; the problem is getting groups of gun owning, gun toting people together (along with a general commitment to drinking & being immature). Not gonna end well. But it's really probably because all us whiteys hate black people. Damn us all!!
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I don't understand why a neighborhood that doesn't want crime on its streets must then take on the task of solving crime. You can by cynical and simply say that the crime will move to another neighborhood, and you'll have a point, but that doesn't lessen the right of someone to demand that crime not happen at their doorstep. That's a right that's unencumbered by any larger societal issue.
I don't expect you to go Inspector Gadget on St. Louis Avenue and solve crime, but we wholly lack any north-south neighborhood association coalition or discussion addressing these issues. Do we have forums? No. Our aldermen fight over where to formally meet each other in terms of geography. I think that's entirely damaging if we want to ultimately greatly reduce crime and increase quality of life for everyone -- not exclusively the popular areas were whites and middle class minorities are, or where guided into with subsidy, reinvesting. This division creates and us vs. them view expressed in people criticizing "G-Rides" and "wrapping," as well as the size of African American women, and calling for profiling and searches due process. We take a defensive posture against surrounding neighborhoods and they cease to be actually our neighbors in our mind. What do we even know about the daily lives of ordinary people who live in St. Louis Place or Wells-Goodfellow? We don't have connections across our City.Alex Ihnen wrote:I don't understand why a neighborhood that doesn't want crime on its streets must then take on the task of solving crime.
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Do you know that the attendees of the Lure "Hip-Hop Nights" live in St. Louis Place or Wells-Goodfellow? Or are you just supposing that because they're black that's where they live?Doug wrote: What do we even know about the daily lives of ordinary people who live in St. Louis Place or Wells-Goodfellow? We don't have connections across our City.
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Alex, I agree. I dont understand why a few people on this board are critical of us for not wanting a violent club to stay. I would be ok with them operating as a nightclub if they promised not to pull in the nefarious crowd. However I feel they will fall back into there bad habits if they stay around and we will be having the same argument a year from now. For some reason when the Hip Hop folks get together the end result tends to be bad. Just like pouring a bunch of poor folks into a public housing complex. Diversity always wins.
Doug you have no room to talk until you actually go and partake in the celebration at Lure on Thursdays or Sugar on Sundays. You have no idea what you are talking about until you actually experience the problem.
Doug you have no room to talk until you actually go and partake in the celebration at Lure on Thursdays or Sugar on Sundays. You have no idea what you are talking about until you actually experience the problem.
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Have you done this in Wildwood?Doug wrote:Again if you have a problem with gun violence then how about joining or starting a sustained City wide effort against it?
I'll do that after we get Lure shut down.Doug wrote:How about donating on the national level to groups which advocate for stricter gun laws?
It should cause disgust in all neighborhoods. Why don't you go down to Lure next Thursday and invite everyone to come out to Wildwood sometime? I bet you won't do that.Doug wrote:Maybe you could propose a solution that does not target an entire group of people and presume they're guilty before innocent, while further marginalizing them to one geographic area of the City. It seems that ghetto related activity only causes real disgust when it's in the wrong neighborhood.
Zing!!!!ricke002 wrote:Do you know that the attendees of the Lure "Hip-Hop Nights" live in St. Louis Place or Wells-Goodfellow? Or are you just supposing that because they're black that's where they live?Doug wrote: What do we even know about the daily lives of ordinary people who live in St. Louis Place or Wells-Goodfellow? We don't have connections across our City.
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Did I just out-scrutinize the scrutinizer? I hate myself now...The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Zing!!!!ricke002 wrote:Do you know that the attendees of the Lure "Hip-Hop Nights" live in St. Louis Place or Wells-Goodfellow? Or are you just supposing that because they're black that's where they live?Doug wrote: What do we even know about the daily lives of ordinary people who live in St. Louis Place or Wells-Goodfellow? We don't have connections across our City.
Wow, I resign my case. I hope you erect those walks and institute profiling some time soon. After all, those who live in "public housing" are all criminals!!! Wonder how I manage to walk through Clinton Peabody every week? With leadership like this, glad I'll be out of this backwater.Downtown2007 wrote:For some reason when the Hip Hop folks get together the end result tends to be bad. Just like pouring a bunch of poor folks into a public housing complex. Diversity always wins.
For those who are interested there will be a follow-up meeting to discuss the next steps on addressing Lure.
Date: Tues - June 22nd
Time: 6:00pm
Location: The Partnership Office - 720 Olive Street, Suite 450
The city officials want to help us address this problem, but it won't
get solved without the help and support of residents.
Date: Tues - June 22nd
Time: 6:00pm
Location: The Partnership Office - 720 Olive Street, Suite 450
The city officials want to help us address this problem, but it won't
get solved without the help and support of residents.
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So it's okay for you to slippery slope people's comments & lump everyone (leadership included) into a racist, moronic, hillbilly stereotype; but those who don't like gunfire in their neighborhoods are the narrow minded bastards? Makes sense. Good call.Doug wrote:Wow, I resign my case. I hope you erect those walks and institute profiling some time soon. After all, those who live in "public housing" are all criminals!!! Wonder how I manage to walk through Clinton Peabody every week? With leadership like this, glad I'll be out of this backwater.Downtown2007 wrote:For some reason when the Hip Hop folks get together the end result tends to be bad. Just like pouring a bunch of poor folks into a public housing complex. Diversity always wins.
EDIT: And just to clarify, yes, Downtown2007's comment was pretty ignorant.
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I think there's some serious grammatical confusion here.Doug wrote:... It's as if African Americans are not the same class as whites if they do not dress or act in the same manner, aka "wrapping down the street" as GoneCorporate said.
... Would they advocate banning "wrapping down the street" and "G-Rides" on Natural Bridge Avenue?
The people weren't wrapping down the street. The line was. It extended down Washington Avenue about two or three storefronts heading West, as well as reaching East towards that barbeque stand. It was a VIP night, and there was a velvet rope, delaying entrance into the bar. Those waiting waited in line out front.
There was a line. It went down the block. That's how I noticed it, because it reached our tables a third of a block away.
Clothing and behavior was derived out of the word "wrapping"? Seriously? Dude, I really have no idea how the hell you got that connotation out of those words.
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And just to clear the air...if anyone here were to see someone RAPPING down the street, I'd have a problem with that. And equal amount of a problem than if someone saw someone else U2-ing down the street, or Justin Beiber-ing down the street. Slightly less of a problem than if someone were to Nickelback down the street, that sh*t's just awful...Gone Corporate wrote:I think there's some serious grammatical confusion here.Doug wrote:... It's as if African Americans are not the same class as whites if they do not dress or act in the same manner, aka "wrapping down the street" as GoneCorporate said.
... Would they advocate banning "wrapping down the street" and "G-Rides" on Natural Bridge Avenue?
The people weren't wrapping down the street. The line was. It extended down Washington Avenue about two or three storefronts heading West, as well as reaching East towards that barbeque stand. It was a VIP night, and there was a velvet rope, delaying entrance into the bar. Those waiting waited in line out front.
There was a line. It went down the block. That's how I noticed it, because it reached our tables a third of a block away.
Clothing and behavior was derived out of the word "wrapping"? Seriously? Dude, I really have no idea how the hell you got that connotation out of those words.
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Barbecue stand? What am I missing? I love BBQ!Gone Corporate wrote:I think there's some serious grammatical confusion here.Doug wrote:... It's as if African Americans are not the same class as whites if they do not dress or act in the same manner, aka "wrapping down the street" as GoneCorporate said.
... Would they advocate banning "wrapping down the street" and "G-Rides" on Natural Bridge Avenue?
The people weren't wrapping down the street. The line was. It extended down Washington Avenue about two or three storefronts heading West, as well as reaching East towards that barbeque stand. It was a VIP night, and there was a velvet rope, delaying entrance into the bar. Those waiting waited in line out front.
There was a line. It went down the block. That's how I noticed it, because it reached our tables a third of a block away.
Clothing and behavior was derived out of the word "wrapping"? Seriously? Dude, I really have no idea how the hell you got that connotation out of those words.
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^ At the corner of Washington and Tucker, there's a real good stand with brats, red hots, dirt water hot dogs, and some really good grilled chicken. They set up on Thurs, Fri, and Sat and usually have a great selection going through the night. Personally, I prefer the food vendor at 13th and Washington because he sells a giant bratwurst with a heckuva lot of fresh condiments while playing Dead Kennedys (and I avoid the one near Sugar; one bad meal made me sick for two days). Still, the one near Lure has some quality foods, and the red hots are damn near exceptional.
A couple thoughts on the broader topics:
1. I fully agree with Doug's contentions that an intention of displacing crime to another neighborhood doesn't stop an endemic societal problem and is by action moot. For purposes of this discussion, I've only intended to speak to the activities at Lure on Thurs as reported in the paper and from what I've heard from police officers handling specialized cases with specific high-task enforcement objectives. Constructively speaking of broader objectives for societal change should probably take place in another thread, as this thread only would focus on a small problem.
2. By banding together to protest Lure's business, doesn't that in some way meet the intent of a neighborhood "watch" committee at some level?
3. I believe the problem isn't the patronage per se, even as others may contend such. Rather, I believe it is the purveyance of an accepted narcotics market within the bar with no prevention over open sales of dope, and the resulting small related patronage there to facilitate it, which are the root of the problem. And with this, there is no delineation by skin color, only intentions of individuals and banded groups.
4. Regarding aldermanic actions, I can say that I'm a very big fan of Antonio French's actions in his ward near O'Fallon Park (forget which number it is). I believe his engagement of the ward has been exceptional and could serve as a model for other wards to mimic in seeking effective engagement of disruptive elements, including housing restoration and safe reporting of crimes by constituents.
5. Still confused by the whole "wrapping" thing. Truly, I meant it as a term to properly describe a line and am confused as to the other correlations. Were you thinking music? Because it sure wasn't Freudian misusage on my part.
6. Anyone here ever go to that party? Seriously, has anyone on this board ever gone? I've been to Lure on other nights but hate clubs (especially that one) and don't go anymore. I have been to Hip Hop nights at other places, but it's been a while and haven't been to any Downtown. Could we get another person's take on it? If you've ever been, please put down any reflections you may have.
7. I reiterate that people don't live on the Landing because of clubs. This is reflective of why.
A couple thoughts on the broader topics:
1. I fully agree with Doug's contentions that an intention of displacing crime to another neighborhood doesn't stop an endemic societal problem and is by action moot. For purposes of this discussion, I've only intended to speak to the activities at Lure on Thurs as reported in the paper and from what I've heard from police officers handling specialized cases with specific high-task enforcement objectives. Constructively speaking of broader objectives for societal change should probably take place in another thread, as this thread only would focus on a small problem.
2. By banding together to protest Lure's business, doesn't that in some way meet the intent of a neighborhood "watch" committee at some level?
3. I believe the problem isn't the patronage per se, even as others may contend such. Rather, I believe it is the purveyance of an accepted narcotics market within the bar with no prevention over open sales of dope, and the resulting small related patronage there to facilitate it, which are the root of the problem. And with this, there is no delineation by skin color, only intentions of individuals and banded groups.
4. Regarding aldermanic actions, I can say that I'm a very big fan of Antonio French's actions in his ward near O'Fallon Park (forget which number it is). I believe his engagement of the ward has been exceptional and could serve as a model for other wards to mimic in seeking effective engagement of disruptive elements, including housing restoration and safe reporting of crimes by constituents.
5. Still confused by the whole "wrapping" thing. Truly, I meant it as a term to properly describe a line and am confused as to the other correlations. Were you thinking music? Because it sure wasn't Freudian misusage on my part.
6. Anyone here ever go to that party? Seriously, has anyone on this board ever gone? I've been to Lure on other nights but hate clubs (especially that one) and don't go anymore. I have been to Hip Hop nights at other places, but it's been a while and haven't been to any Downtown. Could we get another person's take on it? If you've ever been, please put down any reflections you may have.
7. I reiterate that people don't live on the Landing because of clubs. This is reflective of why.
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Wow, right under my own nose! On those occasions when I'm home on Fri/Sat nights, I usually go down the block to Over/Under or sometimes Dubliner. I've seen the white tent they put up, I assumed it was for the valet parking. I'll check it out.Gone Corporate wrote:^ At the corner of Washington and Tucker, there's a real good stand with brats, red hots, dirt water hot dogs, and some really good grilled chicken. They set up on Thurs, Fri, and Sat and usually have a great selection going through the night. Personally, I prefer the food vendor at 13th and Washington because he sells a giant bratwurst with a heckuva lot of fresh condiments while playing Dead Kennedys (and I avoid the one near Sugar; one bad meal made me sick for two days). Still, the one near Lure has some quality foods, and the red hots are damn near exceptional.
You seem to be very off topic here trying to turn every statement into an attack on a race. Try to be logical and leave your emotions behind. Yes, the city has problems, this is one of many in one neighborhood. This neighborhood doesn't like the problem, and is doing something about it. If the problem was a biker bar where there would be fights, guns, and loud mufflers I believe the neighborhood would try and solve the problem in the same manner. It has nothing to do with race, get that through your head. Do you really think that only one race appreciates hip hop? I watched a guy get stabbed a few months ago on Washington, and it was more than one race in the fight on both sides. I see people of all color going to the clubs, and large women of all color as well. You profile the whole club as only one race which seems rather hypocritical.Doug wrote:Wow, I resign my case. I hope you erect those walks and institute profiling some time soon. After all, those who live in "public housing" are all criminals!!! Wonder how I manage to walk through Clinton Peabody every week? With leadership like this, glad I'll be out of this backwater.Downtown2007 wrote:For some reason when the Hip Hop folks get together the end result tends to be bad. Just like pouring a bunch of poor folks into a public housing complex. Diversity always wins.
Try to relax, nobody is stating they want racial profiling, or any of the other stuff you imagined. Focus on the facts, a club is getting a group of rowdy patrons consistently. Regardless of the race, the club should try and control the patrons, or a logical solution would be to get rid of the club. Why is this so hard to see?
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Because you're probably white and Doug hates white people because all white people are racist. But Doug is white, so Doug is racist, but Doug loves black people, so Doug isn't racist, but Doug is white, and white people hate black people....I get why race-related issues are so complicated now! Whew!TheRemedy wrote: Why is this so hard to see?
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Due to a prior commitment, which I'm trying to change (without luck so far), the chances of me making this are about 50/50. However, I am interested in signing any sort of petition or whatever to get this place shut down.innov8ion wrote:For those who are interested there will be a follow-up meeting to discuss the next steps on addressing Lure.
Date: Tues - June 22nd
Time: 6:00pm
Location: The Partnership Office - 720 Olive Street, Suite 450
The city officials want to help us address this problem, but it won't
get solved without the help and support of residents.
Please keep us advised (assuming you attend the meeting).
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I could not go due to work. What was the result of the meeting?
