I would like to share an update regarding Chouteau's Landing and the redevelopment of the 700 Block of South 4th Street.
On Chouteau's Landing, I was told that the plans would've gone public by this time this month, but one property owner on Chouteau's Landing is holding out on selling. Without that property, the redevelopment plans really fall apart. To my understanding, the property owner wants to be involved by the prospective developer wants to go at it by themselves. This is creating an overall negative hill to climb over and could kill the project before the public even gets to see it. I also understand that the prospective developer is pretty far along in their schematic plans and design and that they're focusing on a more office centric development with a tenant reportedly connected. I can't verify that last claim 100% but I would hope that's the case prior to the developer pursuing office. Some residential and retail/restaurant space would be included but based on what I've been told, it'll be less than what the Apted plan was for the site, which in my view is a loss. Renderings of the redevelopment have been shown to a few people but not to me. Those people used the words "spectacular", "beautiful", and "meaningful" to describe the plans but wouldn't go into detail. So as we have been doing, we wait.
At the request of the developer and operators/tenants/lessees, information in this next few sections are purposely vague with a few exceptions. Once plans are 100% finalized, I will make another post.
Regarding the 700 Block redevelopment, you'll soon see graffiti removed from the exterior of the garage at 750 South 4th Street as well as the installation of new glass within the current windows. The metal frames will be cleaned up and restored. Garage doors, made of glass, will be put in. Additionally, temporary electric services should show up, which allows for security cameras and security lights to be put up to deter potential graffiti people from coming and messing up the clean look that the garage will have. Look for this to begin within the next week or two. If there's particular graffiti that you like on the building, take pictures of it now or forever leave it visualized in your mind or in photos taken by other people and posted elsewhere. An exact floor plan of what is planned to happen there is still being worked on, but exterior alterations can take place because those plans are pretty basic and don't involve many changes beyond removing graffiti and putting glass/doors in. I know what the intentions are for the property and know that there's an operator ready to make it a reality. I'm definitely looking forward to it and can't wait.
As for 744, the collapsed building, we're considering sending crews in to remove the collapsed rubble in the building and fill in the basement. The sink hole out front and under the sidewalk is a concern right now, so we want to be able to assess that prior to putting several hundred thousand dollars into rebuilding the building. However, it's not exactly going to be a "rebuild" in the sense that people normally think of it as. The massing will remain the same, just it'll be different. I'm not going to go into too much detail until we have plans 100% finalized, money in hand, and a will to get it done. We do have a plan for the concrete strip behind 744. 744, the concrete strip, and 750 are all connected in a way. But don't be surprised if you see crews at 744 removing the junk inside and no work taking place immediately after that.
754 South 4th Street was sent out for bid a few weeks ago. We should be getting final numbers back on that and should start soon. There's someone lined up for that building as well. Just a few kinks are still needing to be worked out. The bid process should help iron those out.
A number of other issues remain for us to deal with including the condition of the parking zone that sits behind the block. It's deplorable as-is, so we're looking at ways to visually improve it without owning the Nephews Grill and Billboard parcels (the two biggest chunks of land back there). It's been hell to keep it short, so we're pressing ahead with the other projects (744-754). We also have to deal with the highway back there, so there will be no new structures built back there.
We're not a big developer so we don't have deep pockets. What we're doing is out of "love" for the surrounding area. We'd love to see it thrive and are giving our 100% and hope that the Chouteau's Landing developer (if it happens) gives it their 100%. This is the link between Downtown and Soulard, it should be special. On my end, I would like to push to rebrand the area as "Chouteau's Quarter". I've talked to a few people about it, but property owners need to get on board along with the developer of Chouteau's Landing. It wouldn't be a new neighborhood, but a new designation for an existing area that's in pretty rough shape right now.
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On Chouteau's Landing, I was told that the plans would've gone public by this time this month, but one property owner on Chouteau's Landing is holding out on selling. Without that property, the redevelopment plans really fall apart. To my understanding, the property owner wants to be involved by the prospective developer wants to go at it by themselves. This is creating an overall negative hill to climb over and could kill the project before the public even gets to see it. I also understand that the prospective developer is pretty far along in their schematic plans and design and that they're focusing on a more office centric development with a tenant reportedly connected. I can't verify that last claim 100% but I would hope that's the case prior to the developer pursuing office. Some residential and retail/restaurant space would be included but based on what I've been told, it'll be less than what the Apted plan was for the site, which in my view is a loss. Renderings of the redevelopment have been shown to a few people but not to me. Those people used the words "spectacular", "beautiful", and "meaningful" to describe the plans but wouldn't go into detail. So as we have been doing, we wait.
At the request of the developer and operators/tenants/lessees, information in this next few sections are purposely vague with a few exceptions. Once plans are 100% finalized, I will make another post.
Regarding the 700 Block redevelopment, you'll soon see graffiti removed from the exterior of the garage at 750 South 4th Street as well as the installation of new glass within the current windows. The metal frames will be cleaned up and restored. Garage doors, made of glass, will be put in. Additionally, temporary electric services should show up, which allows for security cameras and security lights to be put up to deter potential graffiti people from coming and messing up the clean look that the garage will have. Look for this to begin within the next week or two. If there's particular graffiti that you like on the building, take pictures of it now or forever leave it visualized in your mind or in photos taken by other people and posted elsewhere. An exact floor plan of what is planned to happen there is still being worked on, but exterior alterations can take place because those plans are pretty basic and don't involve many changes beyond removing graffiti and putting glass/doors in. I know what the intentions are for the property and know that there's an operator ready to make it a reality. I'm definitely looking forward to it and can't wait.
As for 744, the collapsed building, we're considering sending crews in to remove the collapsed rubble in the building and fill in the basement. The sink hole out front and under the sidewalk is a concern right now, so we want to be able to assess that prior to putting several hundred thousand dollars into rebuilding the building. However, it's not exactly going to be a "rebuild" in the sense that people normally think of it as. The massing will remain the same, just it'll be different. I'm not going to go into too much detail until we have plans 100% finalized, money in hand, and a will to get it done. We do have a plan for the concrete strip behind 744. 744, the concrete strip, and 750 are all connected in a way. But don't be surprised if you see crews at 744 removing the junk inside and no work taking place immediately after that.
754 South 4th Street was sent out for bid a few weeks ago. We should be getting final numbers back on that and should start soon. There's someone lined up for that building as well. Just a few kinks are still needing to be worked out. The bid process should help iron those out.
A number of other issues remain for us to deal with including the condition of the parking zone that sits behind the block. It's deplorable as-is, so we're looking at ways to visually improve it without owning the Nephews Grill and Billboard parcels (the two biggest chunks of land back there). It's been hell to keep it short, so we're pressing ahead with the other projects (744-754). We also have to deal with the highway back there, so there will be no new structures built back there.
We're not a big developer so we don't have deep pockets. What we're doing is out of "love" for the surrounding area. We'd love to see it thrive and are giving our 100% and hope that the Chouteau's Landing developer (if it happens) gives it their 100%. This is the link between Downtown and Soulard, it should be special. On my end, I would like to push to rebrand the area as "Chouteau's Quarter". I've talked to a few people about it, but property owners need to get on board along with the developer of Chouteau's Landing. It wouldn't be a new neighborhood, but a new designation for an existing area that's in pretty rough shape right now.
Finally, we're ready to see some movement on the 700 block.
Contractors have notified us that beginning tomorrow morning, the collapsed junk inside of 744 will begin being removed and the basement will be filled in. Doing this will allow us to assess our future paths of how to reconfigure the structure or rebuild the structure (in shell form). A building permit for this is shown on the City website and the cleanup is valued at close to $30,000 (permit is valued at $27,500).
Additionally, security camera have been installed on the inside and backside of the Garage. Exterior graffiti on that will remain up for a few more weeks. We still have some things to do in the approval process on that end since this block is part of the South 4th Street Historic Commercial District, which is on the National Register. Once get necessary approvals there, we'll apply for the building permits and the renovation should be swift.
Finally, another small building renovation in the area is coming soon. I'm waiting until the sale is finalized to talk about it
Contractors have notified us that beginning tomorrow morning, the collapsed junk inside of 744 will begin being removed and the basement will be filled in. Doing this will allow us to assess our future paths of how to reconfigure the structure or rebuild the structure (in shell form). A building permit for this is shown on the City website and the cleanup is valued at close to $30,000 (permit is valued at $27,500).
Additionally, security camera have been installed on the inside and backside of the Garage. Exterior graffiti on that will remain up for a few more weeks. We still have some things to do in the approval process on that end since this block is part of the South 4th Street Historic Commercial District, which is on the National Register. Once get necessary approvals there, we'll apply for the building permits and the renovation should be swift.
Finally, another small building renovation in the area is coming soon. I'm waiting until the sale is finalized to talk about it
^ Excellent. Getting this area squared away is huge. I appreciate your efforts here, Chris. Looking forward to hearing and seeing more. As for the mystery building in the area...hmm...Beale on Broadway perhaps? I'm trying to think of the remaining buildings around there you haven't specifically referenced that aren't a BP or White Castle. Lol.
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Fingers crossed for Beale, that build has deteriorated quickly. Don't know how much longer it has without intervention.
Something is going on up at Beale. The old outdoor patio space, save for the stage, has been cleaned up. But it is deteriorating quickly. That whole front facade would most likely have to be disassembled and rebuilt from the looks of it because of the two holes in the wall.EssTeeEll wrote: ↑Jun 24, 2021^ Excellent. Getting this area squared away is huge. I appreciate your efforts here, Chris. Looking forward to hearing and seeing more. As for the mystery building in the area...hmm...Beale on Broadway perhaps? I'm trying to think of the remaining buildings around there you haven't specifically referenced that aren't a BP or White Castle. Lol.
I still have a problem with that damn BP more than the White Castle. Our office is across from BP now and we see the crap that goes on there throughout the entire day. People tweaked out on drugs (mostly the homeless people that live under the bridge and wander out to 4th or Broadway), arguments, drug sales, and cars flooring it when leaving. The place is a nuisance and if it closed down, the area's problems would fall quite a bit.
Speeding cars on 4th Street and Broadway is still a problem. It would be nice if the City could do something similar to what they did on Union (protected bike lanes) in order to reduce driving space. But instead of typical parallel parking, make it diagonal parking to further reduce street width. Put curb bump outs at the beginning of each block so cars can't use the parking area when no one is down there. It's not like this is going to cause traffic problems. I'd also appreciate it if we got those new super bright LED street lights put up that Downtown has. Those brighten up Downtown and its sidewalks quite a bit, it would help a little bit with the visuals down here.
^ Interesting tidbit on Beale, thanks. What are the options regarding BP? I say this as someone with no knowledge of how these things work. Could they be forced out? Or would they just have to move on their own accord? Someone offers them an amount they can't refuse (highly unlikely). I agree, though - if I have to pick one, I'm keeping the White Castle.
We tried our options with BP but nothing was able to be done. We think they'll leave if we paid them an obscene amount of money, but we're not going to do that. We'll have to put up with them until their gas station is beyond its useful life.EssTeeEll wrote: ↑Jun 24, 2021^ Interesting tidbit on Beale, thanks. What are the options regarding BP? I say this as someone with no knowledge of how these things work. Could they be forced out? Or would they just have to move on their own accord? Someone offers them an amount they can't refuse (highly unlikely). I agree, though - if I have to pick one, I'm keeping the White Castle.
First day of 744 clean up complete. It was fun watching the excavator do its work. There's still a lot of clean up to do, but we know that this is beneficial. Engineers, architects and others will soon be able ton examine the building so that we can make a choice moving forward. There are three paths to take.
After the workers went home, I went back down to get up close to the building. It's very interesting to see tunnels that goo out underneath the sidewalk. I'm not sure what they were used for and am hoping that as the basement is cleaned up after the rubble more that I can get down in there to investigate. Anyone have an idea what the history of these are?
Here are some photos from today.
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- Rebuild the front and side facades and adding a roof while keeping the building hollow and the back open.
- Cap the building as-is with some enhancements to keep all the walls level and what not.
- Demolition (not preferred).
After the workers went home, I went back down to get up close to the building. It's very interesting to see tunnels that goo out underneath the sidewalk. I'm not sure what they were used for and am hoping that as the basement is cleaned up after the rubble more that I can get down in there to investigate. Anyone have an idea what the history of these are?
Here are some photos from today.
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^I wouldn't be entirely shocked if there had been freight elevators up to the sidewalk at one time. That sort of thing was once fairly common in downtowns across the country. Strictly a guess, but that's my first guess: loading dock of sorts.
Exciting to see work start on this project! Redeveloping 4th/Broadway/7th street down to Soulard would go a huge way to making Downtown feel like less of an island and more connected to the entire City.
Can't wait to see what goes in on this block, hoping it spurs more projects surrounding it, Broadway Oyster and BB's are right next door, so the area can obviously support thriving businesses. 44 slicing through Soulard/Downtown really did a number on the street grid and the connection of the neighborhoods over the years.
Can't wait to see what goes in on this block, hoping it spurs more projects surrounding it, Broadway Oyster and BB's are right next door, so the area can obviously support thriving businesses. 44 slicing through Soulard/Downtown really did a number on the street grid and the connection of the neighborhoods over the years.
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Petition to rename the area between Soulard and Downtown to Noulard. Pronounced the same as Soulard. The N works for North and New.
We don't think it was that since these are from the 1860s (when the building was built). My dad thinks they spaces for extra storage back in the day, but until we can get down there (if we ever can), we may not know the answersymphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jun 25, 2021^I wouldn't be entirely shocked if there had been freight elevators up to the sidewalk at one time. That sort of thing was once fairly common in downtowns across the country. Strictly a guess, but that's my first guess: loading dock of sorts.
More like Eeewlard. Not a fan of that name. Sounds cheesy and contrived and gimmicky.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Jun 25, 2021Petition to rename the area between Soulard and Downtown to Noulard. Pronounced the same as Soulard. The N works for North and New.
Work is not officially underway yet. This is just the preliminary site clean up for 744. Work may not begin on the other components for a few weeks to a few months since we're waiting on historic tax credits and have to assess 744 now to determine the best path forward for it. The scope of work that everyone will be able to see for the 700 block includes...npav wrote: ↑Jun 25, 2021Exciting to see work start on this project! Redeveloping 4th/Broadway/7th street down to Soulard would go a huge way to making Downtown feel like less of an island and more connected to the entire City.
Can't wait to see what goes in on this block, hoping it spurs more projects surrounding it, Broadway Oyster and BB's are right next door, so the area can obviously support thriving businesses. 44 slicing through Soulard/Downtown really did a number on the street grid and the connection of the neighborhoods over the years.
- Removal of all exterior graffiti
- New windows
- Tuckpointing on all buildings we own
- New rear parking lot (paved, fenced, lit and landscaped)
- New front sidewalks
I want to rename the area Chouteau's Quarter. When I put that name out there on my private Facebook several months ago, people liked it.
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Kinda of makes me wonder... we have a Pierre Laclède statue, do we have an Auguste Chouteau?
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Somebody open a tavern called Chateau Chouteau.
The mystery about the tunnels/cellars under 4th Street from 744 has been solved, well almost. Zoomed in pictures reveal a back and sidewall, so we now believe these were cellars where people could store their food since it was cool and dark. I was planning on going down there to get a closer look, but was not expecting to see the fairly deep water (we estimated it at between 6in and 1ft of water). Now that the building is mostly cleaned out of debris, the next step here is to fill in the hole. I'm unsure if we'll pump the water out first or just fill it in, but either way, these are most likely the last pictures of the cellars until future generations dig out the basement and reveal them again.
A few extra photos show the old upstairs residential fire places (for the 746 A & B housing units). There were once flounder style houses that came off the back of the building (similar to 742, example attached) and were accessed via the double doors in the middle of the building (which opened up to stairs). On the first floor, there's some old wood on the walls and a remnant of the tin ceiling once found in the commercial space.
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A few extra photos show the old upstairs residential fire places (for the 746 A & B housing units). There were once flounder style houses that came off the back of the building (similar to 742, example attached) and were accessed via the double doors in the middle of the building (which opened up to stairs). On the first floor, there's some old wood on the walls and a remnant of the tin ceiling once found in the commercial space.
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wow, there's something really beautiful about this photo.
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^The collapsed area of sidewalk made me think they must have communicated with that. Storage is certainly reasonable, but thinking more about it, I wonder if maybe they were coal bunkers rather like most of us had under our porches. Surely every building of that vintage had coal bunkers you could feed by gravity from either the street or the alley. And given the way coal delivery worked in this town I'm betting the street. Certainly on more recent structures the coal chute is always in the front. Given the number of similar aged and sized structures you should be able to confirm this one way or the other. If they were coal bunkers they'd likely have been in use as such into living memory. Even in row houses built to the sidewalk line you still have to have a coal chute somewhere.
Convenient how easy it is to blight something that is culturally relevant and impossible to achieve the opposite.chriss752 wrote: ↑Jun 25, 2021We tried our options with BP but nothing was able to be done. We think they'll leave if we paid them an obscene amount of money, but we're not going to do that. We'll have to put up with them until their gas station is beyond its useful life.EssTeeEll wrote: ↑Jun 24, 2021^ Interesting tidbit on Beale, thanks. What are the options regarding BP? I say this as someone with no knowledge of how these things work. Could they be forced out? Or would they just have to move on their own accord? Someone offers them an amount they can't refuse (highly unlikely). I agree, though - if I have to pick one, I'm keeping the White Castle.
Well those boxes to the left and right of the cellar entrances look like coal chutes, but anything is possible I guess.symphonicpoet wrote:^The collapsed area of sidewalk made me think they must have communicated with that. Storage is certainly reasonable, but thinking more about it, I wonder if maybe they were coal bunkers rather like most of us had under our porches. Surely every building of that vintage had coal bunkers you could feed by gravity from either the street or the alley. And given the way coal delivery worked in this town I'm betting the street. Certainly on more recent structures the coal chute is always in the front. Given the number of similar aged and sized structures you should be able to confirm this one way or the other. If they were coal bunkers they'd likely have been in use as such into living memory. Even in row houses built to the sidewalk line you still have to have a coal chute somewhere.
Unfortunately, option 1 is off the table for now due to cost. Option 2 is much more likely. It costs about $145,000 to do option 1 and when you're not getting any rent from this building (as it's been integrated into the Garage plans now), it's hard to make it work financially. I'll continue looking into ways to make option 1 possible, but until then, plans for option 2 are the most likely to happen and involve tuckpointing, removing jagged bricks, and capping all other brick sections. This plan also includes (as did option 1) filling in the basement and pouring a concrete floor. Lights will be strung within the shell to create an outdoor space. Option 2 will be most similar to that Church on Spring in Grand Center, just without the full front wall and southern wall. Both options 1 and 2 call for the building's back wall to be left open to connect to a patio/beer garden space with space for a food truck or two.chriss752 wrote: ↑Jun 25, 2021First day of 744 clean up complete. It was fun watching the excavator do its work. There's still a lot of clean up to do, but we know that this is beneficial. Engineers, architects and others will soon be able ton examine the building so that we can make a choice moving forward. There are three paths to take.The first two options would be part of the outdoor space plan that we're working on.
- Rebuild the front and side facades and adding a roof while keeping the building hollow and the back open.
- Cap the building as-is with some enhancements to keep all the walls level and what not.
- Demolition (not preferred).
Knowing that stuff now, option 1 would've allowed for an indoor/outdoor portion at the patio/beer garden since it the roof would've been on the 744 shell. We do not want to demolish the building fully but we really wish we could pull option 1 off.
Perhaps I could figure out the cost of a compromise, which would be option 4. The compromise I have in mind is just rebuild the second story wall fronting 4th Street and side walls to show a roof pitch, but not put the roof back. Putting the roof back is what makes the cost go way up significantly since the walls would have to be engineered to hold the weight of the roof structure. What's happening now is definitely way different than what we wanted to do last year, but that's the way it goes thanks to Terry McDonald's neglect and the collapse prior to us buying the building.
This is no small undertaking for a small firm like us, so we're trying to do something creative while not killing us financially. Unlike other developers, we don't give up easily. My bosses are true doers and go-getters and that "can-do" spirit has rubbed off onto me, so I know we can do this right and we will. I assure you all, we're going to make this a special block and project. I'll keep everyone updated, as I have been, and will soon be announcing the plans for the Garage, updated plans for 754 South 4th Street, and plans for other projects in the area that will tie everything together as St. Louis's blues, jazz and country music district. A true authentic mix of distinct music genre venues, bars, and airbnbs by locals, for locals.
Edit: If anyone has any questions about the 4th Street Row project, feel free to personal message me on here or email me at Chris@4thStreetPartners.com