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PostJan 31, 2008#551

migueltejada wrote:I'm still curious as to who, exactly, is going to maintain this parkspace? I know a private organization will run two blocks between 8th and gateway 1, but what about the other 12? Is this city run? We've seen the enforcement and maintenance they're capable of. Vacant land that's mowed looks better and more inviting than overgrown trees, bushes, and vandalized street furniture.



I know it's been mentioned before, but why not turn it over to the National Park Service? Is that not an option? We know they'd do a bangup job in making sure vagrants are gone, vandals are prosecuted, etc., and people are much more likely to feel safe on the park if a ranger is there instead of some purple shirted dude on a bike. The NPS has done very very well with the Arch Grounds & OCH, I see no reason why we shouldn't let them handle the Mall as well.


You make valid points but I believe that for the NPS to be involved, the land has to be owned by the federal govt.

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PostFeb 01, 2008#552

The NPS has done very very well with the Arch Grounds & OCH, I see no reason why we shouldn't let them handle the Mall as well.


Hmmmm. I'm sure such an idea will be put forward by civic "leadership" even while they actively negotiate to take back the Arch grounds from the NPS.

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PostFeb 01, 2008#553

^ And, how about the lid over the aptly-named depressed lanes of Interstate 70, which might do more to make the city's existing greenspace user-friendly? Or are we now supposed to forget that several, uh, "plans" have been announced for that idea with no tangible and subsequent action? :shock:



Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll get back to ice fishing at Pujols Pond. :wink:

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PostFeb 02, 2008#554

Jeff wrote:Sure, it looks good on screen, but these are my concerns:



~Look at all the street parking they eliminated around the park. In an earlier post someone mentioned a resurgence in retail near this park. Eliminating all the street parking will certainly work against adjacent retail and will decrease the number of pedestrians in the area who may use the park.



~I don't see any hot dog carts, street vendors, restaurants, bike rental, or other uses in the rendering. This space is little more than a pretty place to walk around. Add some destinations in the park, and it will more likely be an active, highly utilized space.



~The density currently surrounding the park is not enough to make this space work like it does in the renderings. We need more high density mixed use around the park to promote utilization of the space morning and night 7 days a week. Otherwise, this will become the newest homeless haven. Tearing down Gateway One would only decrease the density even more.
I agree. If people don't feel safe downtown as it is, they certainly won't feel safe in a park downtown.

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PostFeb 03, 2008#555

Miguel wants to talk about the contents of the plan, well then I will give my thoughts.





East of Tucker:

While I still believe there is far too much green space in downtown as a whole and specifically concentrated in one area, the area east of Tucker is largely already built out, with much higher densities than the area west of Tucker. When combined the potential improvements of the Ballpark Village and other areas south of Market, the existing density, and the inherent proximity between the east of Tucker Mall and the Arch Grounds, the area east of Tucker is in a far better position to handle its amount of park space and handle a “mall” concept.



Generally, the plan for the area east of Tucker is OK. The plan for the long “hallway” of trees along both Chestnut and Market is a great idea. Refurbishing Kiener Plaza and improvements to the other empty blocks should help to add a few destinations and if combined with improvements to surrounding buildings, the sculpture park and garden could thrive.



Yet, for these positives, there are concerns with the specifics of the proposal.



1.Take this quote from page 23 of the Master Plan:

Activate Bordering Buildings: A strength and weakness of the Gateway is the presence and relationship of adjacent buildings. While City Hall, for example, generates considerable foot traffic, it – like so many other buildings on the Mall – is so far set back that an active frontage is difficult to create. Other buildings generate little foot traffic or offer blank and uninteresting facades to the Gateway. Land uses fronting the space, especially at street level, should be very active and the principal building entrances should face the Mall, particularly in the case of the City and other groups seeking to revitalize the Municipal Courts and the Kiel Opera House. In the meantime, selected blank building faces should be illuminated through a variety of lighting strategies to provide enhanced identities.



The planner’s clearly heard the feedback that many on this forum have stated: the Mall is largely dead because there are so many blank facades facing the Mall. Yet, the solution proposed is a combination of ensuring main entrances face the Mall and fancy lighting. While the re-orientation of some entrances to face onto the Mall, like City Hall, will add some foot traffic along Market and Chestnut, one must questions how successful such a solution can really be when many of the buildings along the Mall are directly connected to existing parking garages or lots that make such street level entrances less important for most workers and visitors. While I am all for improved lighting along the Mall as it will both increase perceived safety and highlight the beauty of downtown, lighting does not address the lack of foot traffic along the Mall. The “solution” above does not mention the importance of adding street level retail or restaurants to buildings currently facing onto the Mall, a major flaw in the proposal to improve the east of Tucker area. Additionally, nothing is mentioned about making better use of key parcels along the Mall, such as the Kiener Garages. If the goal is to make the edges stronger, the plan needs to specifically spell out the deficiencies and propose clear solutions.



2.Kiener Plaza: From page 16 of the Master Plan:

Kiener Plaza Needs Improvements

Kiener Plaza is one of the Mall’s better used spaces. It functions as a gathering spot for many festivals and rallies. The sunken design of the May Amphitheater, however, disconnects it from its surroundings. Because it is difficult to see into the Plaza, it is difficult to observe and police. Kiener Plaza can be the catalyst for the entire Mall, also drawing Arch visitors into the downtown area. An exciting, high energy design is needed to reform the space and this should be an implementation priority.



The complaint about Kiener Plaza is a common one. The sunken design makes it difficult to see into the plaza (though one must wonder if this is simply a complaint from the drivers whizzing past on Market and 7th, not from pedestrians who walk next to the plaza). Yet, the plans for the new Kiener Plaza include a new two story performance pavilion that includes stage space, a café, bike rentals, and a visitor’s center. While I like the idea of the café, visitor’s center, and bike rental areas, the proposal brings up a question in light of the criticisms of the current Kiener Plaza.



If the current May Amphitheater is disconnected from its surroundings, how does locating the proposed pavilion at the western edge of Kiener Plaza, along 7th Street address this problem? By locating the stage area between 7th Street and the open plaza to the east (where people can come, sit and enjoy the Plaza), the open area to the east would not seem to be visible at all from 7th Street, hardly an improvement over the current lack of visibility.



3.Gateway One: Given the Mayor’s admittance that the Master Plan is a long range document, it is disheartening that more was not made of removing Gateway One. If the goal of the plan is to truly create a strong east-west connection along the Mall, there would be no better choice than the removal of Gateway One, creating a bookend space with the Civil Courts at the western end and the Arch at the eastern end.



4.Serra Sculpture: While I am not 100% in agreement with the proposal to keep the sculpture in its current location, given the proposal to add more modern sculpture to the east, the idea of keeping it makes some sense, provided the proposed landscaping is continued as shown. The fact that the City’s deal with the Botanical Gardens and the Gateway Foundation does not include extending the improvements to the Serra Sculpture block is a major mistake and makes me wonder whether the landscaping to the east will ever be continued to Serra block.



5.Market Street: While I agree with the decision to add bulb outs, bike lanes, and the double row of trees along Market, I am disappointed to see little has been done to further narrow the roadway, be it through a landscaped median or a widening of sidewalks along the southern side of Market to accommodate a double row of trees as proposed along the northern side. Market is an unfriendly street to cross and I wonder whether the proposed improvements will truly make it friendlier. If the proposed improvements fail to make Market less of a barrier between north-south pedestrian traffic in downtown, then the Mall will fail to connect with and draw from the additional density on the southern half of downtown.



6.Tattoo Park: Most on this forum have wondered at some time why downtown has such a bland and lifeless park on the block due east of the Eagleton Courthouse. Yet, rather than use the Gateway Mall Master Plan as an opportunity to connect this underutilized green space into the larger improvements of the Gateway Mall, the Master Plan does not address such a cross connection. In fact, the Plan proposes no improvements to the southern side of Market Street that would connect the Mall and the park. If the City isn’t going to plan for such connections, one must wonder why the land should be a park at all.



West of Tucker

I have nothing positive to say about this portion of the plan because I think it represents a fundamental misunderstanding of downtown’s need for park land, the development pattern west of Tucker, and the connection between areas east and west of Tucker. The continuation of the Mall concept west of Tucker is a mistake.



The plan fails to understand that a viewing mound is not the defined anchor and draw needed to move people east to west along the Mall.



The permanent closure of Chestnut and removal of parking near the “Civic Room” will reduce what few people currently pass through the space.



While the “Civic Room” clearly tries to provide more festival space by unifying the parks through the closure of Chestnut, unless the City is going to be having near constant festivals, a space built around the occasional (i.e. festivals) rather than the common (i.e. people working and living downtown) is a sure fire way to create underused parkland.

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PostApr 06, 2008#556

ANYTHING NEW ON THIS

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PostApr 06, 2008#557

NO

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PostApr 06, 2008#558

i would much rather see some low and possible high rises built on this prime ground right in the middle of downtown

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PostApr 07, 2008#559

^Centene needs a Plan-B location fast.

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PostApr 07, 2008#560

Please don't start this again, folks. There's no way the City will give up park land in the Gateway Mall for construction of buildings. It's not going to happen, so save your breath. Besides, there's plenty of parking lots Downtown to build on.

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PostApr 07, 2008#561

Well, the land that is planned for the Sculpture Garden is actually LRA land, so it could very easily be sold to a business entity for development. Wouldn't even need to be voted on.



Unfortunately, you are pretty much right anyway.

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PostApr 07, 2008#562

^Too bad that such planning decisions of the past are seen as hands-off. Downtown St. Louis could use more landmark sculptures as much as Charlotte could use more relocated jobs and high-rise construction.

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PostApr 09, 2008#563

i would much rather see some low and possible high rises built on this prime ground right in the middle of downtown


I would LOVE to see those two blocks filled with two new 60 + story towers with AT&T's world headquarters. MOVE BACK TO STL!!! can't we just GIVE them the land!? :?: :idea:

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PostApr 09, 2008#564

^ Of course not. How dare you suggest something like that! We need that land for sculptures. Didn't you get the memo from the Great White Fathers?

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PostApr 09, 2008#565

JCity wrote:
i would much rather see some low and possible high rises built on this prime ground right in the middle of downtown


I would LOVE to see those two blocks filled with two new 60 + story towers with AT&T's world headquarters. MOVE BACK TO STL!!! can't we just GIVE them the land!? :?: :idea:


Would they take it?!!!



No.



If we find a way to make telecommunications giants tax exempt institutions, then they may take it.

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PostApr 10, 2008#566

I'd be all for it. 20,000 new jobs downtown...hmmm, I think that might contribute to downtowns economy..

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PostApr 10, 2008#567

I can see the headlines now... deplorable use of tax breaks for corporate titans... while no mention of the Wal-Mart TIFS in st chuck and chesterfield

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PostApr 10, 2008#568

How does Charlotte manage to have the lowest vacancy rate of any CBD in the US, yet also not a single full city block of green space, much less a linear park stretching miles like Gateway Mall? When five blocks in a row became available along reduced Interstate right-of-way (I-277 Belk Freeway), did Charlotte seek to finally create a large central park? Nope, just more land for corporate headquarters.



Someone needs to organize a trip fast for Charlotte leaders to visit St. Louis and see firsthand the importance of green space to a healthy downtown. While there, they may also witness how a city can actually keep its surface parking lots too, instead of losing those to yet even more office buildings and high-rise residential. Thank goodness St. Louis planners have made sure downtown has no shortage of open space or parking.

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PostApr 11, 2008#569

JCity wrote:
i would much rather see some low and possible high rises built on this prime ground right in the middle of downtown


I would LOVE to see those two blocks filled with two new 60 + story towers with AT&T's world headquarters. MOVE BACK TO STL!!! can't we just GIVE them the land!? :?: :idea:


They would never take it. Never. They had reasons for going to San Antonio that a developable two lots wouldn't change.



And, if it really was possible to bring a F100 corporate HQ into a downtown by offering an open couple of grid blocks, do you really think there would be any green space in any city with a green block or parking lot? If that was possible, then NYC could have any company they would ever want relocate to Manhattan if they just took Tompkins Square Park and declared it developable. Centene proves this theory's nonapplication.



The business model for corporate relocation, as well as that for urban economic redevelopment, does not take into consideration such small factors. The focus is on economic incentives. Merely offering a couple blocks on incongruous land will not change this.



Why do things not get done around here?

Because we're full of naysayers who critique from the sidelines.



Guys: When a gifted $20M economic redevelopment project in the heart of Downtown, for a cultural center that fits into the landscape, is being thrown under the bus for the dream of a speculative corporate tower, directly behind the Arch view, in a matter that is totally destructive economically, then the whole of our efforts are nonsensical.

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PostApr 11, 2008#570

Gone Corporate wrote:
Guys: When a gifted $20M economic redevelopment project in the heart of Downtown, for a cultural center that fits into the landscape, is being thrown under the bus for the dream of a speculative corporate tower, directly behind the Arch view, in a matter that is totally destructive economically, then the whole of our efforts are nonsensical.


Well said. I have always liked the sculpture garden concept.

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PostApr 11, 2008#571

Two points:



1.
The business model for corporate relocation, as well as that for urban economic redevelopment, does not take into consideration such small factors. The focus is on economic incentives. Merely offering a couple blocks on incongruous land will not change this.


Land values have a dollar amount attached to them. While they do not provide the same long term economic impact as tax credits or other economic development tools, low or no land costs associated with development is an economic incentive.



Besides, would be offering the two blocks due south of the existing Bell buildings really be accurately described as incongruous?





2.
Guys: When a gifted $20M economic redevelopment project in the heart of Downtown, for a cultural center that fits into the landscape, is being thrown under the bus for the dream of a speculative corporate tower, directly behind the Arch view, in a matter that is totally destructive economically, then the whole of our efforts are nonsensical.




I personally complain about the sculpture park because it is not part of a long-term cohesive plan for downtown in general and the Gateway Mall specifically. It is simply another purported cultural draw that some believe will create the traffic necessary to enliven the Mall dropped into downtown. In and of itself, the sculpture garden will not be an economic redevelopment project and this is the whole problem. Those who readily accept such gifts wrongly believe it will function as such.

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PostApr 11, 2008#572

prediction: it will be a nice place for AT&T and BofA employees to smoke-break, be mostly abandoned on nights and weekends, except for the homeless and a few tourists, especially with so little residential and retail on the gardens edges. the safety and maintenance will be much like the current city-managed keiner plaza, and in 20 years we'll be on here again bickering over what to do with 2 underutilized blocks.



if the LRA can't find a buyer for that land, perhaps they are the problem worth talking about



it'll be a nice place for the mark twain residents to hang out though.

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PostApr 11, 2008#573

^ That doesn't sound like economic development to me. :wink:

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PostApr 11, 2008#574

JMedwick wrote:Land values have a dollar amount attached to them.


Agreed and recognized. However, what is the greater consideration by cost?

1. A gift of a square block or two of undeveloped land, with questionable recognition of baseline user infrastructure, including electricity, sewage, fiber optic connectivity, natural gas, and parking commensurate with a 60-story construction.

2. Long-term full corporate relocation.



*Remember: We are in a recession. We have negative growth in the broad US economy.

Time for a big move for a plot of undeveloped land?



Plus, do you think they want to build a high-rise directly across from theirs, blocking their preexisting views to the south? That takes away from the value of their buildings, which were recently sold to a real estate investment trust that would block any proposals for new construction along the Gateway Mall as it is.


I personally complain about the sculpture park because it is not part of a long-term cohesive plan for downtown in general and the Gateway Mall specifically. It is simply another purported cultural draw that some believe will create the traffic necessary to enliven the Mall dropped into downtown. In and of itself, the sculpture garden will not be an economic redevelopment project and this is the whole problem. Those who readily accept such gifts wrongly believe it will function as such.

(Italics mine - GC)


That is your opinion, versus a $20 million cultural development in an underutilized city park.

As an aside, I don't consider it to be an economic development project by the very definitions of the words.

Change your perspective: This is another way to draw people into the park, including city-based employees and residents. “Value-added” is needed there to rejuvenate the Mall.





For all those who complain about, and actively post about, the Gateway Mall not being built upon, I say to first focus your desires for new skyscrapers on vacant sites or parking lots. There are enough of them as it is.

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PostApr 11, 2008#575

I don't agree with the "give AT&T the land and they will build" argument stated by others simply because I don't think they are interested in moving their HQ.



That said, the land does have value and that value must be considered as part of a larger package of incentives. I think we both know that neither TIF, nor donated land, or any other economic development incentive handed out by the City, state, or federal government by itself will balance out long-term full corporate relocation costs. It is those incentives creatively packaged and bundled that must be considered. You cannot simply consider the value of the land by itself.



As for the sculpture park and mall:



1. And this is your opinion regarding $20 million cultural development in an underutilized city park:
When a gifted $20M economic redevelopment project in the heart of Downtown, for a cultural center that fits into the landscape, is being thrown under the bus for the dream of a speculative corporate tower, directly behind the Arch view, in a matter that is totally destructive economically, then the whole of our efforts are nonsensical.


Now we have both stated our opinions.



2. Sure the sculpture park can be a method for drawing people into a dead zone, but that assumes that such a park will actually function as a draw. If people don't come, then the park improvements added no value. People are what matters, not the improvements.



3.
For all those who complain about, and actively post about, the Gateway Mall not being built upon, I say to first focus your desires for new skyscrapers on vacant sites or parking lots. There are enough of them as it is.


This belies a basic misunderstanding of how good parks should be planned in cities. I have and continue to maintain that the Gateway Mall as presently organized (and even with future "improvements" as envisioned by the new Mall Plan) is fundamentally flawed in ways that neither simply densification of areas south and north of the Mall and/or improvements to mall programing can fix.

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