^ I agree that there are some pretty dumb 'fixes' for non-problems. This reminds me a bit of the Euclid streetscape design. These things come out of studios and from people who have been taught theory ad nauseum. With Euclid what's needed is new sidewalks and street lamps, a couple bump-outs to slow traffic etc., not a 'urban gardens' etc. But that's what will be built because there's $$. How many people avoid the mall so that they don't get sprayed with water? Oh, better yet, how many kids won't have fun on the mall because they won't get sprayed with water? Anyway, skimming through the document posted on-line, it's rediculous to document that one side of a building is often windy, making it a challenging location for pedestrians - NO you idiots, what's challenging is the traffic and the distance one must walk from their work/home to visit the mall! You would think that if they could just sterilize the mall it would be flooded with people.
I agree that a park is only as good as its edges. But the problem with the Mall is it has DEAD EDGES. And these edges won't change for a very long time, even if more residents are coming to nearby blocks.
1010 Pine is one of our oldest skyskapers yet it never has had a good street presence along Chestnut. Likewise, 1010 Market, a newer office building has a television studio overlooking its private plaza, but its street wall along Market is a dead zone. In fact, all of the buildings surrounding this proposed two-block sculpture have dead zones at street level, especially on their sides facing these two blocks. The only retail presence is a sunken Cafe Dejeuner on the corner (8th & Chestnut) of Gateway One.
Another way to think about this is to look at what we already have Downtown as perhaps the nation's most popular sculpture park-- the Arch grounds. The park is beautiful, the singular sculpture the very best in the world, but what is failing is its edges.
But while the National Park Service would fight the creation of a riverviews restaurant and other activities to liven up this isolated "sculpture park," the City actually controls the 800 and 900 blocks of the Gateway Mall. And while the City can't convince AT&T or any other existing activity to re-orientate themselves along the Mall, the City can build new activity within the Mall.
You see, the edges are fixed. So if this Mall is going to be active, despite its dead edges, it will need to bring life onto its blocks. And with the most popular "sculpture park" already east of here on the riverfront, it's clear to see this concept was doomed on many levels from its inception.
Xing wrote:I wanted to point out that a Dog Park, Ferris Wheel, and Volley Ball court, do not belong in a Downtown Park/Mall, in my opinion. I just don't see the Mall, which in the center of our downtown, as a good place for any of those things. It sounds shoddy.
A ferris wheel and volleyball courts sound kind of schlocky. I do think that a skating rink would be a good use though.
southslider wrote:You see, the edges are fixed. So if this Mall is going to be active, despite its dead edges, it will need to bring life onto its blocks. And with the most popular "sculpture park" already east of here on the riverfront, it's clear to see this concept was doomed on many levels from its inception.
That's a good idea grover. I had not considered putting the amphitheater space between he OCH and the Arch ground. I always envisioned using the natural slope down as a reason to level off the parkland at the elevation of 4th street and extend a bridge of parkland from 4th street over Memorial Drive right into the arch grounds itself. Then, I would use the space underneath the park bridge to locate shops and restaurants facing Market and Chestnut. But I really kidna like your idea.
southslider wrote:You see, the edges are fixed. So if this Mall is going to be active, despite its dead edges, it will need to bring life onto its blocks. And with the most popular "sculpture park" already east of here on the riverfront, it's clear to see this concept was doomed on many levels from its inception.
Well put! =D>
Well, the edges are fixed for most of the entire length of the Mall. City Hall, the Civil Courts, Union Station, Plaza Square, the Soldiers Memorial, the list of abutting uses with little interaction along the street is a long one. That said, the City does have the ability to reformulate the sidewalks and streets with kiosks, so they can somewhat enliven these dead spaces without major changes from surrounding property owners.
^ I think 'kiosk' isn't exactly what I'm thinking - I think the semi-permanent cafes like you can find in London, Paris and Rome would be awesome. Maybe it would be like a Tavern on the Green. There's plenty of room. Why not try something new?
I know this would be rather piecemeal and may not lend itself to a coherent plan, but it might be cool to showcase what St. Louis has to offer by 'inviting' institutions to create an installation along the mall.
I'd be all for a block put together by the zoo, one by the art museum, one by the history museum, one by the Botanical Garden, a real amphitheatre playing regular blues concerts that could double as an outdoor theatre - think Shakespere . . . oh, and that outdoor greenhouse-ish restaurant would be nice too.
I still think we need to address the surrounding buildings/uses and the street widths all along this area, but we could also showcase what the region has to offer - what great advertising.
Doug wrote:I did and that was his (Jesus') suggestion! They want to flood the area surrounding the fountain and turn it into a ice rink in the winter.
They said if they flooded the area then people could walk around the fountain and not get wet due to spray from the wind. What a joke!
Again, don't be an idiot. Do you think they're going to let the water freeze right up to the pipes for the fountain? Do you think that might cause some damage? Do you think they're going to allow someone to skate so close that they can fall and hit their head on the statues?
You decided you were against this whole thing even before you walked through the door. So like I said earlier - not only did you waste your own time, but you wasted theirs.
Grover wrote:I know this would be rather piecemeal and may not lend itself to a coherent plan, but it might be cool to showcase what St. Louis has to offer by 'inviting' institutions to create an installation along the mall.
I'd be all for a block put together by the zoo, one by the art museum, one by the history museum, one by the Botanical Garden, a real amphitheatre playing regular blues concerts that could double as an outdoor theatre - think Shakespere . . . oh, and that outdoor greenhouse-ish restaurant would be nice too.
I still think we need to address the surrounding buildings/uses and the street widths all along this area, but we could also showcase what the region has to offer - what great advertising.
This was alluded to last night. It's in the plan. Around the Soldiers Memorial blocks.
Grover wrote:^ I think 'kiosk' isn't exactly what I'm thinking - I think the semi-permanent cafes like you can find in London, Paris and Rome would be awesome. Maybe it would be like a Tavern on the Green. There's plenty of room. Why not try something new?
This is exactly the sort of thing they were discussing. Ignore Doug. I doubt if he was even there. And if he was, he wasn't listening.
^ I think a stand-alone cafe would do wonders for activity in the new sculpture park, particularly if it were "sculptural' itself. Here are a few pics from one in Birmingham, England:
Grover, those are exactly what I was thinking of. You see them all over Europe. I particularly liked those in Stockholm that surrounded this ice rink (I was there in the winter. Others have told me it is used as a festival type space in the summer along without door dining for the surrounding kiosks).
jefferson wrote:^ I think a stand-alone cafe would do wonders for activity in the new sculpture park, particularly if it were "sculptural' itself. Here are a few pics from one in Birmingham, England:
Something like that would be fantastic. How likely is it, do you think?
Is it possible for a city to suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder?
There was once upon a time a plan to connect the Gateway Mall with the Ralston campus using a south bound mall. The two highway ramps at 10th St. were to form a large almost symetrical urban sculpture.
^ I think we're just too poor as a region. If we don't have enough money to get the basics done, how can we expect to build the extravagant? Face it, there's just not enough money to upgrade. (this applies to most things we do in the region)
bpe235 wrote:^ I think we're just too poor as a region. If we don't have enough money to get the basics done, how can we expect to build the extravagant? Face it, there's just not enough money to upgrade. (this applies to most things we do in the region)
I remember the outrage when Mayor Vince put money in the budget to upgrade the ornamentation for the new Kingshighway viaduct. He was ridiculed for trying to make something as functional as a bridge nice looking (especially because it was on the "South Side") Can you imagine what those same people must think of Mayor Daley?.
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