^ Love the kiosks, bike station and smaller Kiener. I can't belive that Gateway One's going anywhere though. I think Lucas Park would make for a great dog park - what better way to move out some of the homeless? Put some biga$$ angry dogs in there and let them claim the park.
I think it would do bad things to St. Louis' self esteem if we cut its Kiener in half.
But where would the "Smash Band" Play? Oh the humanity!!!!!!!!
Well, I figure that the most used part of Kiener is the semi-circular portion with the steps. The "redone Kiener" I envision is essentially the same thing we have now (including the same orientation, with the semi-circle facing the Old Court House) just a block closer to the OCH, thereby taking that useless half a block gap out of the way. Still provides an amphitheater type space for bands to play.
Sadly you are likely right that folks will balk at trying to remove the Gateway One. Heaven forbid the City try and fix some past errors.
Sadly you are likely right that folks will balk at trying to remove the Gateway One. Heaven forbid the City try and fix some past errors.
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Just got back.
Gateway One is not going away, nor are any new buildings going up. So forget about any of those ideas.
The plan as a whole looks great. The problem as I see it, is whill the whole thing get built, and if not, can any one part of the plan work on its own?
The far western end has a lot of neat ideas. For those who want a skating rink, how about a flooded and frozen Milles fountain, where the stautues of the fountain would be in the middle? Brilliant, in my opinion.
There was also a beach volleyball area and other activities directly east of that, which would definitley interest me. Those blocks are being labeled as the city park area, and are aimed at the residents, not tourists.
The elephant in the room that hangs over a lot of this, and that noone wants to talk about is the trash that hangs out in the area. They talk about an "outdoor reading room" in he block between the Soldiers Memorial and the library, but who will want to use it if there are going to be bums sleeping on all the benches and hitting you up for money every five minutes? Those shaded areas are there now, as is Lucas Park, but I never see anyone using them, other than bums.
To the east of Civil Courts, will be the Serra and the sculpture garden, along with a reconfigured Keiner Plaza. The ampitheatre is toast. Good move there.
ETA: Next meeting, July 17th.
Gateway One is not going away, nor are any new buildings going up. So forget about any of those ideas.
The plan as a whole looks great. The problem as I see it, is whill the whole thing get built, and if not, can any one part of the plan work on its own?
The far western end has a lot of neat ideas. For those who want a skating rink, how about a flooded and frozen Milles fountain, where the stautues of the fountain would be in the middle? Brilliant, in my opinion.
There was also a beach volleyball area and other activities directly east of that, which would definitley interest me. Those blocks are being labeled as the city park area, and are aimed at the residents, not tourists.
The elephant in the room that hangs over a lot of this, and that noone wants to talk about is the trash that hangs out in the area. They talk about an "outdoor reading room" in he block between the Soldiers Memorial and the library, but who will want to use it if there are going to be bums sleeping on all the benches and hitting you up for money every five minutes? Those shaded areas are there now, as is Lucas Park, but I never see anyone using them, other than bums.
To the east of Civil Courts, will be the Serra and the sculpture garden, along with a reconfigured Keiner Plaza. The ampitheatre is toast. Good move there.
ETA: Next meeting, July 17th.
I think the best news so far is that the amphitheater will be eliminated. And as much as Steve Patterson was thinking this was a closed process, it does seem to actually be open to different ideas.
am I the only one that doesn't mind Kiener Plaza? I always liked that fountain. It's better than the fountain with the running man.
I've got no problem with Kiener Plaza. I've always wondered why so many people don't like it. But then, I liked the Running Man thing, too.
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Gateway One is not going away,
perhaps not in the near term, but I think removing it should be a stated goal of the master plan. Granted, not in 5-10 years, but in say 20-40.
The outdoor reading area has to go, at least until we can do something about the homeless. Not to mention it's 2 blocks from the damn library, I'm not sure how many will make the connection.
As an alternative to some of the more conventional ideas being discussed, I'd like to throw out another one for the development enthusiasts. Develop the mall with mostly office east of Tucker, mostly residential west, and use the proceeds to rip up Chestnut and create a linear greenway/bikeway connecting the developing Locust Business District west of Jefferson to the CBD and Archgrounds. Unlike the current mall this would be a truly uninterrupted greenway, with road crossings perhaps only at Jefferson, Tucker and 4th/broadway/memorial. This could be a true amenity, an active greenway that people and business would want to be close to; as opposed to the largely cermonial/aesthetic Mall, which, let's face it, is largely there to look good and do little else. You could still have your ice rink, smaller sculpture park etc. in small pocket parks lining the greenway, within the current mall.
^ Like the creative idea Jefferson. I think I might still couple it with changes along Market, using the closing of Chestnut as an opportunity, at least west of Tucker, to make Market wider and into a big boulevard by taking land (and angled parking space) away from Chestnut. Very cool idea. If a stated goal of downtown is to create better bike and pedestrian circulation to help link the disparate downtown neighborhoods, such a auto-free greenway coupled with development all around it could help provide a type of bike-highway into downtown. However, as it always the case, development along the length is very important, lest is just become another failed US pedestrian street.
In the Post article from today I was a bit concerned about the plan to close part of Chestnut as proposed in the master plan. Can someone who attended the meeting please give some more info on such a proposal?
In the end, we will see. Those who think the problems of the Mall can be fixed solely through development around it and better activities on it are going to get their wish. With upward trajectory of downtown's population and retail offerings, more people than ever before will be living within 5 minutes of the Mall. Hopefully we will find out in the next 5 to 10 years whether such a plan pans out, because the long the City waits to figure out how to make the mall area something the longer it will drain away the City's positive progress and vitality.
(BTW, if this plan fails, can we then move forward with radical plans like building on the mall?
)
In the Post article from today I was a bit concerned about the plan to close part of Chestnut as proposed in the master plan. Can someone who attended the meeting please give some more info on such a proposal?
In the end, we will see. Those who think the problems of the Mall can be fixed solely through development around it and better activities on it are going to get their wish. With upward trajectory of downtown's population and retail offerings, more people than ever before will be living within 5 minutes of the Mall. Hopefully we will find out in the next 5 to 10 years whether such a plan pans out, because the long the City waits to figure out how to make the mall area something the longer it will drain away the City's positive progress and vitality.
(BTW, if this plan fails, can we then move forward with radical plans like building on the mall?
)
^Yes, the good thing about a sculpture park is that it could be moved and and the lot is still buildable. Well sort of, it seems that Twain is not moveable . Which reminds me, what is planned for the Twain block. I think Twain would be more popular & understandable if it were part of a sculpture garden or surrounded by fountains or something.
. Which reminds me, what is planned for the Twain block. I think Twain would be more popular & understandable if it were part of a sculpture garden or surrounded by fountains or something.- 1,610
Sure, more people are moving Downtown and the jobs are stable. However, I don't think the activities immediately adjacent to the Mall are going to change in the immediate future, and since they poorly relate to the street today, that is chiefly why this latest plan will again fail.
Like Gateway One, Civil Courts, AT&T's complex of buildings, the Kiener garages, the Hilton-Ballpark, Bank of America, and 1010 Market all generate income, so their owners don't see any need to change how they currently relate to Chestnut or Market. The former GenAmerica building doesn't generate income presently as it's vacant, yet its owners don't see a problem in why no one wants to lease bland office space lacking street-level vibrance. As a result this lack of urgency among owners and uses on immediately adjacent blocks, the 800 and 900 blocks of the Mall will need active street uses themselves, thus built on the Mall itself.
There's already a well-landscaped promenade today along Market on these two blocks. What's missing is activity. A sculpture park won't generate the needed activity. But build new density on half-blocks along Chestnut with street-level retail lining this Market Street-oriented promenade, and the Mall might actually see foot traffic walking between Kiener Plaza and the Civil Courts.
Like Gateway One, Civil Courts, AT&T's complex of buildings, the Kiener garages, the Hilton-Ballpark, Bank of America, and 1010 Market all generate income, so their owners don't see any need to change how they currently relate to Chestnut or Market. The former GenAmerica building doesn't generate income presently as it's vacant, yet its owners don't see a problem in why no one wants to lease bland office space lacking street-level vibrance. As a result this lack of urgency among owners and uses on immediately adjacent blocks, the 800 and 900 blocks of the Mall will need active street uses themselves, thus built on the Mall itself.
There's already a well-landscaped promenade today along Market on these two blocks. What's missing is activity. A sculpture park won't generate the needed activity. But build new density on half-blocks along Chestnut with street-level retail lining this Market Street-oriented promenade, and the Mall might actually see foot traffic walking between Kiener Plaza and the Civil Courts.
- 6,775
JMedwick wrote: In the Post article from today I was a bit concerned about the plan to close part of Chestnut as proposed in the master plan. Can someone who attended the meeting please give some more info on such a proposal?
There's really not much to add. It would be closed from Tucker to about 16th, I think.
How can you have your pudding if you don't eat your meat?
What about connecting the Arch grounds to the mall?
Was the plan presented a project plan or a comprehensive strategic plan?
How about a tunnel under or an innovative bridging of Chestnut?
What about connecting the Arch grounds to the mall?
Was the plan presented a project plan or a comprehensive strategic plan?
How about a tunnel under or an innovative bridging of Chestnut?
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Expat wrote:^Yes, the good thing about a sculpture park is that it could be moved and and the lot is still buildable. Well sort of, it seems that Twain is not moveable
Precisely. I thing there might be some plantings on the edges of that block, but like you said, I think it will do better as part of the larger garden. It will give it context. As it is now, it is undersized and orphaned.
The entire plan is a rehash of what already exists. It is a complete joke and I want to see how much we paid these jokers. I confronted the guy, along with others, and he called us a second tier city. The mall, especially east of tucker, should be developed. Much of what is west should be also. This is simply a campaign footnoote for Slay 2009. None of these ideas will bring residents.
Didn't these guys read Jane Jacobs? We need people living down there. That is why no one uses the Mall. The size is also an issue. It should be drastically reduced by adding mixed uses. This will create pedestrian traffic not simply during lunchtime but all hours of the day and night. People will not move down for dirt mounds, a starbucks kiosk, pylons, fancy lights, flooding the fountian, or a freaking second rate Cahokia Mound. An urban garden will not work either! People already have these in the suburbs! Destroy the "art," the freaking useless memorials, and bulild some damn skyscrapers! That is art and it will completely transform this area of the City! Moreover they want to block off 9th and also Chestnut. So basically we will be unable to drive to the wonderful new Century Garage, nor can people park within Chestnut. They also want to remove parking on Market and add a bike trail. Oh, and did you know that Market is our busiest street?
We are so provincial!
The entire thing was a joke and their answers to our criticisms was to attack St. Louis and say "if you build it they will come." That has already been tried.
This is incrementalism and thus ultimate failure. No wonder we are "second tier!" The failure of our leaders, and their limited vision, has lead us to "second tier" status. St. Louis is not inherently second rate. Our leaders and their lack of innovation is second rate. When will people have standards! Urban parks will not attract people from the suburbs or regionally. They already have their parks and lower taxes! We need unique mixed use if we want to bring people to our City. Skyscrapers with storefront retail, along with office space and residential. Am I from Mars?
Didn't these guys read Jane Jacobs? We need people living down there. That is why no one uses the Mall. The size is also an issue. It should be drastically reduced by adding mixed uses. This will create pedestrian traffic not simply during lunchtime but all hours of the day and night. People will not move down for dirt mounds, a starbucks kiosk, pylons, fancy lights, flooding the fountian, or a freaking second rate Cahokia Mound. An urban garden will not work either! People already have these in the suburbs! Destroy the "art," the freaking useless memorials, and bulild some damn skyscrapers! That is art and it will completely transform this area of the City! Moreover they want to block off 9th and also Chestnut. So basically we will be unable to drive to the wonderful new Century Garage, nor can people park within Chestnut. They also want to remove parking on Market and add a bike trail. Oh, and did you know that Market is our busiest street?
We are so provincial!
The entire thing was a joke and their answers to our criticisms was to attack St. Louis and say "if you build it they will come." That has already been tried.
This is incrementalism and thus ultimate failure. No wonder we are "second tier!" The failure of our leaders, and their limited vision, has lead us to "second tier" status. St. Louis is not inherently second rate. Our leaders and their lack of innovation is second rate. When will people have standards! Urban parks will not attract people from the suburbs or regionally. They already have their parks and lower taxes! We need unique mixed use if we want to bring people to our City. Skyscrapers with storefront retail, along with office space and residential. Am I from Mars?
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Matt wrote:What about connecting the Arch grounds to the mall?
The designers consider the Arch to be the eastern terminus of the mall, not the Old Courthouse.
- 11K
Anyone who's looked at the Mall on Google maps can see a major problem. They are simply disconnected islands that present absolutely no continuity at all. Each single block is generally surrounded on all four sides by 8 lanes of parking and traffic. No sh!t people don't want to walk to these islands - let alone between them!
I know this seems to be going against what I've thought in the past, but perhaps the failing of the Mall isn't because there's too much greenspace, but because it's worthless greenspace. I think it would be great if downtown had a reall park and not just grassy blocks that look like they're left over from demolition (of course that's just what they are).
So:
1) build an amphitheater between the courthouse and the arch - now THAT's a setting for a concert!
2) Put giant screens on the Kiener parking garages - what a place to watch the Cards in the playoffs while they're on the road!
3) Close 9th and 10th (there are some challenges here, but the blocks themselves are not useful as they sit.
4) Close 13th and 14th from Pine to Market.
5) Build on the lot north of the Library.
6) Build out the block with Gateway One.
7) Close 17th.
I know this seems to be going against what I've thought in the past, but perhaps the failing of the Mall isn't because there's too much greenspace, but because it's worthless greenspace. I think it would be great if downtown had a reall park and not just grassy blocks that look like they're left over from demolition (of course that's just what they are).
So:
1) build an amphitheater between the courthouse and the arch - now THAT's a setting for a concert!
2) Put giant screens on the Kiener parking garages - what a place to watch the Cards in the playoffs while they're on the road!
3) Close 9th and 10th (there are some challenges here, but the blocks themselves are not useful as they sit.
4) Close 13th and 14th from Pine to Market.
5) Build on the lot north of the Library.
6) Build out the block with Gateway One.
7) Close 17th.
- 6,775
Did we attend the same presentation?
Where to begin?
It is? Thats funny. Could you point me toward the existing sculpture garden? And the beach volleyball court? And the ice skating rink and the skateboard park and the cafe and Starbucks?
Your opinion is noted. As for how much "we" paid them? You should have asked. Perhaps the Gatewy Foundation paid for it? In which case, it's none of your business.
I'm not sure how to break this to you, but.........ummmm.....we are.
If that is your feeling, then you wasted your time and their time by attending.
No one said they would.
I don't know. Did you ask them?
Yes. And this is exactly what they said.
Are you sure we attended the same meeting?
Oh puh-leez!!! At no time did any of them "attack" St. Louis. You only heard what you wanted to hear.
You opinion is noted.
Where to begin?
Doug wrote:The entire plan is a rehash of what already exists.
It is? Thats funny. Could you point me toward the existing sculpture garden? And the beach volleyball court? And the ice skating rink and the skateboard park and the cafe and Starbucks?
Doug wrote:It is a complete joke and I want to see how much we paid these jokers.
Your opinion is noted. As for how much "we" paid them? You should have asked. Perhaps the Gatewy Foundation paid for it? In which case, it's none of your business.
Doug wrote:I confronted the guy, along with others, and he called us a second tier city.
I'm not sure how to break this to you, but.........ummmm.....we are.
Doug wrote:The mall, especially east of tucker, should be developed. Much of what is west should be also.
If that is your feeling, then you wasted your time and their time by attending.
Doug wrote:This is simply a campaign footnoote for Slay 2009. None of these ideas will bring residents.
No one said they would.
Doug wrote:Didn't these guys read Jane Jacobs?
I don't know. Did you ask them?
Doug wrote:We need people living down there. That is why no one uses the Mall.
Yes. And this is exactly what they said.
Doug wrote:The size is also an issue. It should be drastically reduced by adding mixed uses. This will create pedestrian traffic not simply during lunchtime but all hours of the day and night. People will not move down for dirt mounds, a starbucks kiosk, pylons, fancy lights, flooding the fountian, or a freaking second rate Cahokia Mound. Moreover they want to block off 9th and also Chestnut. So basically we will be unable to drive to the wonderful new Century Garage, nor can people park within Chestnut. They also want to remove parking on Market and add a bike trail. Oh, and did you know that Market is our busiest street?
Are you sure we attended the same meeting?
Doug wrote:The entire thing was a joke and their answers to our criticisms was to attack St. Louis and say "if you build it they will come." That has already been tired.
Oh puh-leez!!! At no time did any of them "attack" St. Louis. You only heard what you wanted to hear.
Doug wrote:This is incrementalism and thus ultimate failure. No wonder we are "second tier!" The failure of our leaders, and their limited vision, has lead us to "second tier" status. St. Louis is not inherently second rate. Our leaders and their lack of innovation is second rate.
You opinion is noted.
- 479
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Your opinion is noted. As for how much "we" paid them? You should have asked. Perhaps the Gatewy Foundation paid for it? In which case, it's none of your business.
If the Gateway Foundation paid for it, it is still anyone's business to know how much they paid.
Unless you consider the Master Plan, supervised by a city agency, to be something other than public policy...
Well, as I said, we will see.
I have the same fundamental concerns as explained by Southslider and openly believe that this newest plan will fail unless it addresses these concerns.
Many seem to believe the "If we build it they will come" mantra relates well to the Mall. Well, over the next 5 or more years, many more people will be coming downtown if all goes well. The question is whether they will come to the Mall even with the changes proposed.
The time of test is at hand for those who believe that all the Mall needs is better programing, because the current group of planners are proposing lots of new programing.
If this plan fails, then maybe the City and its leaders will finally be ready to consider a bold change.
I have the same fundamental concerns as explained by Southslider and openly believe that this newest plan will fail unless it addresses these concerns.
Many seem to believe the "If we build it they will come" mantra relates well to the Mall. Well, over the next 5 or more years, many more people will be coming downtown if all goes well. The question is whether they will come to the Mall even with the changes proposed.
The time of test is at hand for those who believe that all the Mall needs is better programing, because the current group of planners are proposing lots of new programing.
If this plan fails, then maybe the City and its leaders will finally be ready to consider a bold change.
- 6,775
JMedwick wrote:Well, over the next 5 or more years, many more people will be coming downtown if all goes well. The question is whether they will come to the Mall even with the changes proposed.
I know I would.
As one of their slides pointed out, people don't go there because there is no "there" there.
ecoabsence wrote:The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Your opinion is noted. As for how much "we" paid them? You should have asked. Perhaps the Gatewy Foundation paid for it? In which case, it's none of your business.
If the Gateway Foundation paid for it, it is still anyone's business to know how much they paid.
Unless you consider the Master Plan, supervised by a city agency, to be something other than public policy...
It is public policy. But if the public didn't pay for the plan, then it's none of their business what a private individual or foundation paid for it.
Let's say that I wanted to pay for St. Louis to build a giant arch on the riverfront. Of course it is valid to debate whether that is a wise thing to do as public policy, since it will affect a lot of people. Put it is no one's business except my own as to how much it costs me.
- 479
Southslider is completely right. Without examination and improvement of context, the master plan sets itself up for failure. People are drawn to buildings -- downtown is most vital where it is most dense with buildings and street-level commercial. The mall area, with few exceptions, has none of the contextual ingredients for vitality. The master plan side-steps that problem completely, and makes the ludicrous suggestion that the mall itself can be a substitute for actual urban fabric.
One of the funniest parts of last night's presentation was hearing one of the planners call Market Street our busiest street and a likely pedestrian promenade. If Market Street is the busiest downtown street, that's not a good thing! It's busy with automobile traffic and is an oppressive pedestrian environment.
I was surprised to hear the exultation of passive space last night. Busy pedestrian streets like Washington Avenue and Grand south of Arsenal are built up, with lots of street-level activities in buildings. People are found there because they have destinations -- and I'm not talking about fancy lighting or trees to walk under.
They can change Market Street (and Chestnut for that matter) as much as they want but it will never be a pedestrian-friendly environment until the buildings change.
One of the funniest parts of last night's presentation was hearing one of the planners call Market Street our busiest street and a likely pedestrian promenade. If Market Street is the busiest downtown street, that's not a good thing! It's busy with automobile traffic and is an oppressive pedestrian environment.
I was surprised to hear the exultation of passive space last night. Busy pedestrian streets like Washington Avenue and Grand south of Arsenal are built up, with lots of street-level activities in buildings. People are found there because they have destinations -- and I'm not talking about fancy lighting or trees to walk under.
They can change Market Street (and Chestnut for that matter) as much as they want but it will never be a pedestrian-friendly environment until the buildings change.