I don't know that having streets remain open would prohibit success.
What is the status of the lid over I-70? This would seem primary.
What is the status of the lid over I-70? This would seem primary.
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Matt wrote:What is the status of the lid over I-70? This would seem primary.
They made it sound like it is still being actively planned.
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Matt wrote:I don't know that having streets remain open would prohibit success.
What is the status of the lid over I-70? This would seem primary.
But no one's going to stoll the length of the Mall if it means crossing no less than 81 freakin' lanes of parked and moving traffic. IF the goal is have a gateway "mall" - these segments need to be brought together. Including Market and Chestnut there's a lot more aphalt than grass along the mall. As mentioned above, no one will go there if there's no 'there'. I think that the basic notion that buildings and activity create space is obviously correct, though I have no problem with planning for anticipated demand.
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While we are at it could someone remove the Market Street median next to Kiener Plaza? It really screws with the parades.
We shouldn't even have this "Mall." It was created through the demolition of buildings. Clearly having this open space has done nothing for our City. I think we need to reverse the mistakes and build upon the green space, not kiosks, art, memorials, skate parks, or mounds of dirt, but mixed use skyscrapers. People might walk along Market, maybe, if they had shade from Skyscraper Row. Everything they mentioned adding is simply stupid. It exists elsewhere, even in other areas of the City. There are already a few skate parks, indoor and outdoor. Did they even know that?
What about Kiel Opera House and the Municipal Courts? They had no consideration for the development of surrounding buildings. They simply think that people will come down for green space, albeit "upgraded" and "connected" as individual "rooms." It is a complete farce. People would come down for new buildings as well as the opening of those that are vacant.
They reflected the idea that parks will attract people. Parks won't because people already have their local parks. Regional Parks bring people, like Forest, but this will never be a Forest Park! We need to get rid of our past mistakes, give away the land and have it developed. The Gateway Mall is an omnipresent eyesore and it needs to be removed with towering Architecture not urban parks!
Moreover, given the small room chosen I doubt they actually expected, or wanted, large public input.
What about Kiel Opera House and the Municipal Courts? They had no consideration for the development of surrounding buildings. They simply think that people will come down for green space, albeit "upgraded" and "connected" as individual "rooms." It is a complete farce. People would come down for new buildings as well as the opening of those that are vacant.
They reflected the idea that parks will attract people. Parks won't because people already have their local parks. Regional Parks bring people, like Forest, but this will never be a Forest Park! We need to get rid of our past mistakes, give away the land and have it developed. The Gateway Mall is an omnipresent eyesore and it needs to be removed with towering Architecture not urban parks!
Moreover, given the small room chosen I doubt they actually expected, or wanted, large public input.
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southcitygent wrote:While we are at it could someone remove the Market Street median next to Kiener Plaza? It really screws with the parades.
Yes. If "the plan" goes through, the median is gone.
One of the designers was quoted in the paper today in regards to the mall as saying "there is just no reason to go there". While it's an obvious statement on its surface, it really highlights the fundamental flaw in the mall - it's a solution in search of a problem. There should be a need for a public space, and the creation of the space should relieve that need. With the mall what we instead got was a public space that we are constantly trying to manufacture a need for. I can perhaps see the need for such a monumental open space in DC where people go to march/protest by the hundreds of thousands, but St. Louis has no need for a ceremonial space of that size, especially not through the heart of downtown. If there is any need at all, it's one that can be fulfilled with a few blocks or plazas in strategic locations.
So we have an issue with some useless blocks in the middle of downtown, but instead of converting them to a useful purpose (revenue generating buildings) we get...dog parks and reading rooms. Again, solutions in search of a problem. It's window dressing on a failed concept. The time is approaching (if it's not here already) to ditch the concept and stop throwing good money after bad. Why should we be so beholden to a concept concieved 90 years ago in a city so different from our present day one?
So we have an issue with some useless blocks in the middle of downtown, but instead of converting them to a useful purpose (revenue generating buildings) we get...dog parks and reading rooms. Again, solutions in search of a problem. It's window dressing on a failed concept. The time is approaching (if it's not here already) to ditch the concept and stop throwing good money after bad. Why should we be so beholden to a concept concieved 90 years ago in a city so different from our present day one?
The time is approaching (if it's not here already) to ditch the concept and stop throwing good money after bad. Why should we be so beholden to a concept conceived 90 years ago in a city so different from our present day one?
I firmly believe that the time to ditch the concept has already passed, but those who want to go down this road one more time are having their chance as we speak. For their sake I hope they succeed because if this plan once again is another miserable failure, I don't think the "visionaries" who support the current vision of the Mall should have another shot.
Of course, I also hope that one more colossal failure will help the few remaining visionaries who cling to the current vision of the mall see its inherent flaws so that the City can finally move on the more aggressive (and likely successful) proposals discussed on this forum.
There is no reason to go down there. And urban planning won't create a solution.
The Mall idea is completely obsolete. It won't work for a City of our size, or a region which is so fragmented and already has their own local parks. The guy with the white hair, who I described as "Jesus," as he acted like he walks on water and we are so provincial, said that it works in Manhattan. Well, maybe with Manhattan's density the mall, as it exists, would. It is too big of an area. I walked from 1200 Market last night to the Tap Room with Michael, Claire, Anthony, and a cool guy Sam. The proposed failures are even more obvious as you walk this length.
The Mall idea is completely obsolete. It won't work for a City of our size, or a region which is so fragmented and already has their own local parks. The guy with the white hair, who I described as "Jesus," as he acted like he walks on water and we are so provincial, said that it works in Manhattan. Well, maybe with Manhattan's density the mall, as it exists, would. It is too big of an area. I walked from 1200 Market last night to the Tap Room with Michael, Claire, Anthony, and a cool guy Sam. The proposed failures are even more obvious as you walk this length.
There are risks associated with any plan or development. Doug brings up some valid points. The city must identify and evaluate all risks and think about how each can be mitigated. Unfortunately, government typically isn't good at risk assessment.
I think one strategy is to take small steps and build on successes. Let it happen organically. The sculpture garden is a good first. Then let demand drive the next step. I visit and use Kiener and would definately visit the new mini-botanical garden.
I think one strategy is to take small steps and build on successes. Let it happen organically. The sculpture garden is a good first. Then let demand drive the next step. I visit and use Kiener and would definately visit the new mini-botanical garden.
I wanted to point out that a Dog Park, Ferris Wheel, and Volley Ball court, do not belong in a Downtown Park/Mall, in my opinion. I just don't see the Mall, which in the center of our downtown, as a good place for any of those things. It sounds shoddy.
Right. They belong in areas around say North Hampton, like the Dog Park we have down here. It is quite nice however does not and shouldn't be Downtown. What belongs on the Mall is high rise density.
I think a dog park could certainly be useful downtown. Not on the mall, but somewhere else. I see no need for a ferris wheel, reading room, or some of the other stuff. I do think the ice skating rink is a good idea, and I don't understand why the one that was on the mall for 2 years in the early 2000's was not kept. Otherwise, the half mall concept that has been proposed here many times is the plan I like.
Some features that I would like to see if we keep the mall as park space are cafes and restaurants, street vendors and entertainers, maybe some type of bike facility that includes parking and even showers, and a redesign of Kiener Plaza to better serve events and simple everyday uses like eating lunch. Someday I'll come up with an aerial plan like JMedwik did. Maybe we should all do that and submit our ideas in visual form to the designers instead of just whining here.
Some features that I would like to see if we keep the mall as park space are cafes and restaurants, street vendors and entertainers, maybe some type of bike facility that includes parking and even showers, and a redesign of Kiener Plaza to better serve events and simple everyday uses like eating lunch. Someday I'll come up with an aerial plan like JMedwik did. Maybe we should all do that and submit our ideas in visual form to the designers instead of just whining here.
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Xing wrote:I wanted to point out that a Dog Park, Ferris Wheel, and Volley Ball court, do not belong in a Downtown Park/Mall, in my opinion. I just don't see the Mall, which in the center of our downtown, as a good place for any of those things. It sounds shoddy.
A ferris wheel and volleyball courts sound kind of schlocky. I do think that a skating rink would be a good use though.
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^ I appreciate your view on this Doug - and in the big picture you're right. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the way things are trending. Do you see a worthwhile compromise - a way to make the mall better? I don't know the answer to this. I think proper planning at the periphery would do much more for the mall than anything that can be done to the mall. Parking garages, many lanes of traffic and other dead space seals the fate of this area.
Their solution was to flood the area surrounding the fountain! In the winter they said people could use it as an ice rink! Yeah, I am sure it would be awesome seeing little children fall into the frozen fountains, cracking their skulls. No doubt they, being the fountains, would survive the 300lb fat man who can't keep his balance and falls. Whomever paid needs a refund.
The solution for the fountain area is to have the building to the north open their 1st floor as retail and a coffee shop with say a deli, not to flood the fountain. This is one of the few blocks of the Mall that shouldn't be developed as it could work with little change.
The solution for the fountain area is to have the building to the north open their 1st floor as retail and a coffee shop with say a deli, not to flood the fountain. This is one of the few blocks of the Mall that shouldn't be developed as it could work with little change.
I like Grover's idea of putting the ampitheatre in the block between the old courthouse and the arch. (I think it was Grover's idea) The Arch would be an incredible backdrop for any show. And the land slopes, avoiding the need to dig a hole or raise bleachers above ground. The highway noise might be a problem?
And I would be interested in seeing renderings of suggested half-mall buildings. How would it look and how would it work?
In the meantime, I really believe the sculpture garden is what we are getting for the middle section. How can we make it the best sculpture garden in the world?
Also, if we can't get rid of Gateway One, let's build another building and complete the block.
And I would be interested in seeing renderings of suggested half-mall buildings. How would it look and how would it work?
In the meantime, I really believe the sculpture garden is what we are getting for the middle section. How can we make it the best sculpture garden in the world?
Also, if we can't get rid of Gateway One, let's build another building and complete the block.
Fox 2 News Video: Leaders announce 1st of its kind sculpture garden.
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Expat wrote:I like Grover's idea of putting the ampitheatre in the block between the old courthouse and the arch. (I think it was Grover's idea) The Arch would be an incredible backdrop for any show. And the land slopes, avoiding the need to dig a hole or raise bleachers above ground. The highway noise might be a problem?
And I would be interested in seeing renderings of suggested half-mall buildings. How would it look and how would it work?
In the meantime, I really believe the sculpture garden is what we are getting for the middle section. How can we make it the best sculpture garden in the world?
Also, if we can't get rid of Gateway One, let's build another building and complete the block.
I think those are some great ideas.
Was there any mention of building underground parking as per the original plans? If there aren't going to be any buildings going up on the mall, we might as well put the land to better use.
You know, it really is an issue of planning the periphery properly. Forget what they put in the mall, it will succeed or fail based on what surrounds it. Consider every other park in the city. For example, Tower Grove, Benton, Forest, Lafayette, Carondelet, etc etc. Everyone of these parks is surrounded on all sides by residential. The park functions as common ground for nearby residents. The only one of these that consistently draws large numbers of people who do not live in the immediate vicinity is Forest Park. Since the "mall" will never be a Forest Park, city planners should be focused on surrounding it with people. The more people living close by, the more successful and utilized the space will be. Period. People don't need gimmicks to attract them to a park. They just need a nice place nearby where they can walk, picnic, play sports, bbq, and buy drugs. Parks are primarily a local resource, and most importantly, parks are just space without people. Surround the mall with life and the mall will come alive. Leave it as is and it will fail no matter how many bells and whistles they hang on the thing.
No mention of underground parking. If they are going to redesign Kiener, then they should put parking under Keiner.
TGE-AW is correct. However, the quickest way to get residential is to build some on the mall, rather than to simply rehab the surrounding areas. The surrounding areas would develop a lot faster if a developer broke ground on the mall. For one the homeless wouldn't be there, thus people looking to buy surrounding the park might be more likely to do so. Secondly, if new residential was built then store front retail could open confident that there would be customers.
TGE-AW is correct. However, the quickest way to get residential is to build some on the mall, rather than to simply rehab the surrounding areas. The surrounding areas would develop a lot faster if a developer broke ground on the mall. For one the homeless wouldn't be there, thus people looking to buy surrounding the park might be more likely to do so. Secondly, if new residential was built then store front retail could open confident that there would be customers.
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Doug wrote:No mention of underground parking. If they are going to redesign Kiener, then they should put parking under Keiner.
Fountain Square in Cincy has underground parking, and it seems to work well. Parking under Kiener would probably work well too.
I'd probably like to see Kiener and its surroundings receive a complete overhaul before any other work is done on the mall.
^They can start by putting the parking under Kiener Plaza and replacing the Keiner garages with a signature skyscraper for offices, condos, hotel, or whatever. When Rachel Ray did her show in St. Louis, they kept showing clips of her with the Keiner Garages behind her. I can't imagine why. It was ugly and embarrassing. I blame the show, because it wouldn't take much to find a better looking background.
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Doug wrote:Their solution was to flood the area surrounding the fountain! In the winter they said people could use it as an ice rink! Yeah, I am sure it would be awesome seeing little children fall into the frozen fountains, cracking their skulls. No doubt they, being the fountains, would survive the 300lb fat man who can't keep his balance and falls. Whomever paid needs a refund.
Stop being an idiot. You should have went to the meeting last night.