I think you're right.
Democrats: we suffer from low self-esteem
Republicans: we're penny wise and pound foolish
Democrats: we suffer from low self-esteem
Republicans: we're penny wise and pound foolish
Where is the website to review what was said by members of the public at the first open house and to submit public comment for those who can't attend one of the public presentations?
We are not poor at all. Our politicians are simply choosing an incremental change because those that created the Mall, especially the demolition of Real Estate Row, are still alive and in power.
If our leaders would admit that the Mall was and is a failure, along with a barrier to progress, then actual innovative plans could be done which would bring actual life, as in new residents, to this area. Currently they follow the same failed notion that we need green space in this part of the City. They want to tweak what exists. The simple fact is that the planning ideology that created the green space has been completely disproven. Also, what works in other cities won't work here.
Yet, as to not offend those who made the mistake, because this is a network of friends, we have this paltry rehash.
It is not about money. It is about leaders who do not have the fortitude to take a risk and create something new. Rather, they make small changes to what is a failure.
If our leaders would admit that the Mall was and is a failure, along with a barrier to progress, then actual innovative plans could be done which would bring actual life, as in new residents, to this area. Currently they follow the same failed notion that we need green space in this part of the City. They want to tweak what exists. The simple fact is that the planning ideology that created the green space has been completely disproven. Also, what works in other cities won't work here.
Yet, as to not offend those who made the mistake, because this is a network of friends, we have this paltry rehash.
It is not about money. It is about leaders who do not have the fortitude to take a risk and create something new. Rather, they make small changes to what is a failure.
- 10K
bonwich wrote:Where is the website to review what was said by members of the public at the first open house and to submit public comment for those who can't attend one of the public presentations?
This super-informative web site has a link to an "electronic survey," which I filled out, only to find that an error occurred after I hit the "submit" button: http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/pla ... tewaymall/
^
Just noticed that Monday's presentation is now up:
http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/pla ... tation.pdf
Just noticed that Monday's presentation is now up:
http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/pla ... tation.pdf
Must be those old -386 machines at your place. I got it to open fine. It comprises a total of four questions:
) Is there something you like about the gateway mall?
2) Would you change anything?
3) Are there any activities you would like to see?
4) When do you come to the gateway mall?
Well, at least they're promoting dialogue.
I saw Monday's presentation. That's what the Great White Fathers presented. Will they also post what comments were made by the Unwashed Masses?
) Is there something you like about the gateway mall?
2) Would you change anything?
3) Are there any activities you would like to see?
4) When do you come to the gateway mall?
Well, at least they're promoting dialogue.
I saw Monday's presentation. That's what the Great White Fathers presented. Will they also post what comments were made by the Unwashed Masses?
- 1,054
1) Like about existing Mall
I like the centrality and focal points or lines of sight. When I went to Philly for the national APA conference I wandered around the entire central city and one place in particular kept abuzz, Logan Circle. It was nighttime but asian tourists were taking pictures, young couples were there with there children who ran around the circle and touched the water, and people coming and going and taking a brief time to linger and enjoy the little park.
From the circle a person could see up and down Benjamin Franklin Parkway to City Hall and to the Art Museum. I felt more comfortable walking along this parkway then on any side street because there was traffic, people, and a wider open space between buildings such that I could better see where I was going.
2) What to Change
I prefer developing some blocks with others becoming like public squares, but if there is enough money invested in making the Mall a destination like Millenium Park then never mind developing the parks.
I would make Market Street narrower as well as Chestnut and include a landscaped and attractive linear path instead of a wider sidewalk.
Remove the lone office building. Require that surrounding parking garages be replaced with high-rise buildings that add jobs and residents.
3) Something to See:
Something most people would never think about that engages people with it like the big mirror bean at Millenium Park Chicago.
Something that is formal and links places by focal points. In this idea, I imagine a public building like the Civil Courts building but with a mix of some modern design to end or terminate the Mall. A LED light, low observational plattform, and skatepark will not cut it. A skatepark should be in the neighborhood section and not be a leftover. Maybe a high-rise and mixed-use building with special architectural treatments (art deco + today's modern).
Particular attention should be given to the neighborhood section to add modern amenities people seek such as the dog run, skatepark, landscaped open lawn, gathering spot like a fountain. This area needs to stand out and be unique.
Lid over I-70 with attention to pedestrians crossing from the Arch to the Courthouse which means narrowing Memorial Drive on both sides or limiting it to one side only.
4) When do I visit the Mall
For the festivals near the Soldiers Memorial like the Hispanic one.
For visiting Keiner Plaza to people watch when in downtown.
For visiting the Arch grounds with friends and go to the Mississippi River to touch the water and watch it flow past.
I like the centrality and focal points or lines of sight. When I went to Philly for the national APA conference I wandered around the entire central city and one place in particular kept abuzz, Logan Circle. It was nighttime but asian tourists were taking pictures, young couples were there with there children who ran around the circle and touched the water, and people coming and going and taking a brief time to linger and enjoy the little park.
From the circle a person could see up and down Benjamin Franklin Parkway to City Hall and to the Art Museum. I felt more comfortable walking along this parkway then on any side street because there was traffic, people, and a wider open space between buildings such that I could better see where I was going.
2) What to Change
I prefer developing some blocks with others becoming like public squares, but if there is enough money invested in making the Mall a destination like Millenium Park then never mind developing the parks.
I would make Market Street narrower as well as Chestnut and include a landscaped and attractive linear path instead of a wider sidewalk.
Remove the lone office building. Require that surrounding parking garages be replaced with high-rise buildings that add jobs and residents.
3) Something to See:
Something most people would never think about that engages people with it like the big mirror bean at Millenium Park Chicago.
Something that is formal and links places by focal points. In this idea, I imagine a public building like the Civil Courts building but with a mix of some modern design to end or terminate the Mall. A LED light, low observational plattform, and skatepark will not cut it. A skatepark should be in the neighborhood section and not be a leftover. Maybe a high-rise and mixed-use building with special architectural treatments (art deco + today's modern).
Particular attention should be given to the neighborhood section to add modern amenities people seek such as the dog run, skatepark, landscaped open lawn, gathering spot like a fountain. This area needs to stand out and be unique.
Lid over I-70 with attention to pedestrians crossing from the Arch to the Courthouse which means narrowing Memorial Drive on both sides or limiting it to one side only.
4) When do I visit the Mall
For the festivals near the Soldiers Memorial like the Hispanic one.
For visiting Keiner Plaza to people watch when in downtown.
For visiting the Arch grounds with friends and go to the Mississippi River to touch the water and watch it flow past.
- 1,610
Today and tomorrow, I'm attending a conference at Union Station, while I live and work along Memorial Drive, respectively Mansion House and Gateway Tower (Channel 4's home, not Gateway One). This Saturday, I'm walking from home again over to the Komen Race for the Cure, which starts near the western end of the mall. In the past, I've walked Market the same distance a few times to Great Rivers Greenway's offices behind Union Station, but I have many more frequent meetings at City Hall, thereby walking the section east of Tucker most regularly. In other words, I actually walk good lengths of the Mall rather frequently and sections of the Mall east of Seventh daily.
I'm not your typical walker, for I walk great distances for fun and as my means of travel. I have walked to both Soulard and Lafayette Square in one night to and from Downtown, or between The Grove and the CWE station. But as someone who often walks Downtown and other urban areas in St. Louis, I can honestly tell you that the Mall is one of my least favorite walks. Indeed, I only do it out of necessity for reaching a set destination by foot, never for pleasure. On the other hand, Olive around the OPO is my favorite walk, with Wash-Ave a close second.
As I see it, the greatest problem with the Mall for a pleasant pedestrian experience is its scale. Washington, Olive and other sections of Downtown streets are great urban canyons with strong street walls, active facades, yet very little green space. Market Street, on the other hand, is lined with single-block, single-use structures, dead street walls, and abundant open space.
It's no wonder then why I strongly feel these two blocks of the Mall slated to become a sculpture park won't change the dead feel of the Mall. With the control of land in the Mall, the City has an opening to actually change the dynamic of this dead zone and introduce a new mix of activities into an otherwise dead space.
I'm not your typical walker, for I walk great distances for fun and as my means of travel. I have walked to both Soulard and Lafayette Square in one night to and from Downtown, or between The Grove and the CWE station. But as someone who often walks Downtown and other urban areas in St. Louis, I can honestly tell you that the Mall is one of my least favorite walks. Indeed, I only do it out of necessity for reaching a set destination by foot, never for pleasure. On the other hand, Olive around the OPO is my favorite walk, with Wash-Ave a close second.
As I see it, the greatest problem with the Mall for a pleasant pedestrian experience is its scale. Washington, Olive and other sections of Downtown streets are great urban canyons with strong street walls, active facades, yet very little green space. Market Street, on the other hand, is lined with single-block, single-use structures, dead street walls, and abundant open space.
It's no wonder then why I strongly feel these two blocks of the Mall slated to become a sculpture park won't change the dead feel of the Mall. With the control of land in the Mall, the City has an opening to actually change the dynamic of this dead zone and introduce a new mix of activities into an otherwise dead space.
I think the most tragic thing about this plan is the fact that sculpture already exists on various blocks of the Mall today. Stretching from the Arch to Milles fountain, with Kiener, May Amphitheater, Twain, the WW2 Memorial and smaller pieces in-between, the Mall is already TODAY a nearly 20-block long sculpture park.
Put simply, the Mall isn't working today as a well-landscaped sculpture park, so it's completely insane to think adding more well-landscaped sculpture will change how it fails to function as a dynamic place.
Insanity truly is doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting different results. But in St. Louis it seems, we continually rehash the same plans over and over again, yet wonder why our Riverfront, the Mall or any other favorite topic regularly victimized by rehashed ideas never seems to change.
Put simply, the Mall isn't working today as a well-landscaped sculpture park, so it's completely insane to think adding more well-landscaped sculpture will change how it fails to function as a dynamic place.
Insanity truly is doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting different results. But in St. Louis it seems, we continually rehash the same plans over and over again, yet wonder why our Riverfront, the Mall or any other favorite topic regularly victimized by rehashed ideas never seems to change.
the Mall was and is a failure
Maybe (just maybe) the mall might not be a failure if there was attractive stuff on it, rather than just a patchy grass blank space throughout most of it?
People on this board write about the consequences of such actions like it's a foregone conclusion, or like they actually are well trained or experienced in how these things typically work. Why don't we take a step back, notice that while this isn't the best possible of outcomes, it's certainly better than what is there presently and it is going to cost the city very little.
I'm not saying that this will definately be a huge success. I'm neither staunchly defending it nor condeming it. But you know what? It's hard to judge the success rate of the mall when there are many blocks on it with abolutely nothing.
I think the best idea would be for the sort of half-mall idea. This would allow for office/residential above and retail/restaurant to open out onto the mall and Chestnut street. It would be cool if it went the entire length of the mall with separate bike and pedestrian paths. Landscaping with plants done by the Botanical Gardens, sculptures, statues and fountains should follow the entire length. Maybe a sort of stream that flows all the way down to the fountain at Kiener or something.
It should also be continuous instead of being interupted by the street. The cross streets could pass underneath and allow for easy access to underground parking beneath each block. I would not build on Kiener Plaza though.
I think that with a mix of national retailers and outdoor seating this idea could make this the coolest street in StL.
It should also be continuous instead of being interupted by the street. The cross streets could pass underneath and allow for easy access to underground parking beneath each block. I would not build on Kiener Plaza though.
I think that with a mix of national retailers and outdoor seating this idea could make this the coolest street in StL.
- 710
stlmike wrote:the Mall was and is a failure
Maybe (just maybe) the mall might not be a failure if there was attractive stuff on it, rather than just a patchy grass blank space throughout most of it?
i've come late into this dialogue but isn't this what the certain elements at city hall want to believe as well? sorry for the belligerence, but do urban planners have a say?
- 476
I was pretty impressed by the PDF that was posted. Mostly because it was full of pictures of really cool places from around the world. If we ACTUALLY got something like what was in the document then it could be great. I just dont know if that will be the outcome
warwickland wrote:stlmike wrote:the Mall was and is a failure
Maybe (just maybe) the mall might not be a failure if there was attractive stuff on it, rather than just a patchy grass blank space throughout most of it?
i've come late into this dialogue but isn't this what the certain elements at city hall want to believe as well? sorry for the belligerence, but do urban planners have a say?
for some reason the mall is viewed as sacred space by many, thus the focus is always on trying to manufacture a reason for people to go there rather than just admitting it doesn't work.
If we threw all the ideas people have onto the blocks east of Tucker, and worked for the eventual removal of Gateway One, I could see this becoming an attractive space - the sort of "outdoor room" we all want. The blocks west of Tucker call for something else though, a residential community perhaps that will provide users to the eastern half. These western blocks are too narrow, the streets too wide, the buildings lining it too low for it to work as a park, public space or anything else.
- 8,912
a couple things...
I think the plots between civil courts and GW1 should definately be given up for development for mixed use towers.
I think that Kiener is ok just how it is, and with some art should be a fabulous place for locals and tourists.
I think the Kiener garages should either be torn down or recladded and built upon like originally planned.
Please no ferris wheels, zoos, skate parks.... this is not a circus... this is a neighborhood. If there is demand for a skate park, let someone build it inside in one of the many warehouses.
I think the plots between civil courts and GW1 should definately be given up for development for mixed use towers.
I think that Kiener is ok just how it is, and with some art should be a fabulous place for locals and tourists.
I think the Kiener garages should either be torn down or recladded and built upon like originally planned.
Please no ferris wheels, zoos, skate parks.... this is not a circus... this is a neighborhood. If there is demand for a skate park, let someone build it inside in one of the many warehouses.
DeBaliviere wrote:bonwich wrote:Where is the website to review what was said by members of the public at the first open house and to submit public comment for those who can't attend one of the public presentations?
This super-informative web site has a link to an "electronic survey," which I filled out, only to find that an error occurred after I hit the "submit" button: http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/pla ... tewaymall/
The same thing happened to me...I think I typed too much
I just went back and kept deleting stuff until it accepted it.
- 11K
The more I read and think about this the more I think it's a bunch of crap. I can't believe they make any comparison between the Gateway Mall and Commonwealth Avenue in Boston and there's even a picture of Copley Square. Did these guys Google search "urban park" and cut and paste? They are absolutely ignoring the fact that we could be toilets of gold on the mall and only a few people would crap there. I applaud the effort and thought going in to making the mall useful - a dog park, a skating rink, bocce courts, whatever - but we're effectively doing all this for about 2,000 residents within easy walking distance. I think it's rediculous to talk about creating a mall that will be an attraction in and of itself. These types of spaces simply don't attract people from any distance.
What about closing some of the cross streets that run through the mall? For example, tear up 9th street as it crosses the mall, and you've got a large space that can be used for something interesting instead of two isolated patches of unused grass - making that section more pedestrian-friendly and able to accomodate a larger attraction of some sort.
The mall as it is now:
And my suggestion, roughly cobbled together in MS Paint:
I didn't do it in this illustration, but 10th st. could also be cut off, connecting the Serra sculpture with the other section and making one contiguous green space between 11th and 8th.
Again, that doesn't begin to define what goes in that newly expanded space. But IMO this does make it more of a contiguous space, and gives developers more options for filling that space with comething interesting. Traffic won't be horribly affected, IMO, as long as the major streets are left intact - it shouldn't be a big deal to cut over a block or two to cross the mall.
Thoughts?
-RBB
The mall as it is now:
And my suggestion, roughly cobbled together in MS Paint:
I didn't do it in this illustration, but 10th st. could also be cut off, connecting the Serra sculpture with the other section and making one contiguous green space between 11th and 8th.
Again, that doesn't begin to define what goes in that newly expanded space. But IMO this does make it more of a contiguous space, and gives developers more options for filling that space with comething interesting. Traffic won't be horribly affected, IMO, as long as the major streets are left intact - it shouldn't be a big deal to cut over a block or two to cross the mall.
Thoughts?
-RBB
jefferson wrote:for some reason the mall is viewed as sacred space by many, thus the focus is always on trying to manufacture a reason for people to go there rather than just admitting it doesn't work.
If we threw all the ideas people have onto the blocks east of Tucker, and worked for the eventual removal of Gateway One, I could see this becoming an attractive space - the sort of "outdoor room" we all want. The blocks west of Tucker call for something else though, a residential community perhaps that will provide users to the eastern half. These western blocks are too narrow, the streets too wide, the buildings lining it too low for it to work as a park, public space or anything else.
Well this urban planner has thought way too much about this topic (I have come to find my obsession with it as unhealthy), but in the end I have come to the same basic solution as Jefferson.
Take a long look at the outdoor spaces citied in the presentation. How many are almost 20 blocks long? Few if any. Many of these spaces are small (3 or 4 blocks at a maximum). Maybe we should all take a hint from the images and realize that what we have is simply too much. Crazy or not, the space between 11th and the arch grounds could be a great space. Moreover, I think the preservation of a mall space running from the Civil Courts all the way down to the Arch Grounds would satisfy many locals desire to preserve the mall idea, while concentrating its best features in a smaller area.
On a side note, I think it is interesting SMSPlanstu brings up Philly. The more I visit the Central City area, the more I think downtown St. Louis could learn tons about how to improve itself. The way parks are spread throughout the downtown area. The Mall is small, extending north to south from 676 to Independence Hall and four blocks east from Independence Hall. Moreover, this entire mall space is logically connected to Independence Hall through the Constitution Center, the Liberty Bell Center, and many important old buildings along the eastern portion. I will also add that along this mall, while there are some dead spaces like the US Court House and the US Mint, many old buildings with good form (and fully occupied) add to the success of the Mall space. The signage for visitors is also excellent.
Take a look at these maps. Look at the orientation and spread of the parks and the color coded districts. Very tourist friendly.
http://map.mapnetwork.com/destination/philadelphia/
- 1,044
Count me as one who is glad to see the dialogue started on improving the mall. This has the potential to be another piece of the puzzle that will upgrade our city and present a exciting face to residents and visitors alike. The negativity that is expressed by those on this forum does nothing to move the project along and only serves to cut them off from providing constructive input. When the Forest Park master plan was first proposed there was a lot of the same negativity, fortunately those in charge did not allow it to stop the process. Today the result is a magnificently renovated park not perfect but a good compromise from all those involved. We all have different ideas on what the end result of the mall should look like. Those who have stepped forward to lead this project must find balance between all interests involved, including the almost impossible task of financing the final plan.
- 1,610
RBB asked:
Because that has worked so well with 6th and 16th streets.
What about closing some of the cross streets that run through the mall?
Because that has worked so well with 6th and 16th streets.
- 6,775
southcitygent wrote:Count me as one who is glad to see the dialogue started on improving the mall. This has the potential to be another piece of the puzzle that will upgrade our city and present a exciting face to residents and visitors alike. The negativity that is expressed by those on this forum does nothing to move the project along and only serves to cut them off from providing constructive input. When the Forest Park master plan was first proposed there was a lot of the same negativity, fortunately those in charge did not allow it to stop the process. Today the result is a magnificently renovated park not perfect but a good compromise from all those involved. We all have different ideas on what the end result of the mall should look like. Those who have stepped forward to lead this project must find balance between all interests involved, including the almost impossible task of financing the final plan.
Well said.
- 5,433
southcitygent wrote:Count me as one who is glad to see the dialogue started on improving the mall. This has the potential to be another piece of the puzzle that will upgrade our city and present a exciting face to residents and visitors alike. The negativity that is expressed by those on this forum does nothing to move the project along and only serves to cut them off from providing constructive input. When the Forest Park master plan was first proposed there was a lot of the same negativity, fortunately those in charge did not allow it to stop the process. Today the result is a magnificently renovated park not perfect but a good compromise from all those involved. We all have different ideas on what the end result of the mall should look like. Those who have stepped forward to lead this project must find balance between all interests involved, including the almost impossible task of financing the final plan.
That's my take. I have my doubts, but I'm willing to give this process a chance.
southcitygent wrote:Count me as one who is glad to see the dialogue started on improving the mall. This has the potential to be another piece of the puzzle that will upgrade our city and present a exciting face to residents and visitors alike. The negativity that is expressed by those on this forum does nothing to move the project along and only serves to cut them off from providing constructive input. When the Forest Park master plan was first proposed there was a lot of the same negativity, fortunately those in charge did not allow it to stop the process. Today the result is a magnificently renovated park not perfect but a good compromise from all those involved. We all have different ideas on what the end result of the mall should look like. Those who have stepped forward to lead this project must find balance between all interests involved, including the almost impossible task of financing the final plan.
I'd agree though I'm not sure what negativity you're talking about. Everyone wants this space to be improved and we have different ideas about how to do it. It's way too easy to just write off people's legitimate criticisms of the most recent plan as negativity. I think we're all doing a good job of suggesting alternatives.
I like your idea RBB, if we're going to try to turn this area between the Civil Courts and Gateway One into some sort of park or attraction, it would help if it's one contiguous area. You almost need a big space to complement the monumental buildings surrounding it.
My main concern with the recently released plan (I know it's preliminary) is that I believe the city is creating long-term maintenance costs over the whole length of the mall while not addressing the fundamental problem with the area. The most consistent criticism of the mall on this thread is that it has bad edges. Well, we can either rebuild or renovate a majority of these buildings with the kind of uses we want, or we can radically rethink the mall space itself...the latter seems more practical. But many want to keep throwing band-aid solutions at the space, always trying to fit ourselves to the mall instead of the other way around. You know where dog parks and playgrounds belong? On pocket parks nearer to the loft district. The problem is the space, not the programming.
A commen sense solution seems to be to introduce at least some revenue-generating development onto the worst part of the mall...the western blocks, and focus our attention on the area east of Tucker where there's more of a chance to rescue the open space. To be honest, I'm not married to the idea of buildings on the western blocks, but whatever is done with them would have to be way more intriguing than what I've seen; and sorry, but I don't think they're going to come up with anything inspiring. Now, I'm going to participate in the public meetings on the project and try and help make it the best plan possible, but I'm definately going to criticize the parts I don't like. That's being a responsible citizen.
- 1,610
As a pilot project, the City could first sell off the two least controversial blocks of the Mall-- those two blocks not even located between Chestnut and Market Streets. I'm talking about the blocks either side of the Soldier's Memorial between Chestnut and Pine Streets. Then, if those developments were successful, perhaps there would be wider public support for selling off lesser blocks actually along Market Street, but still keeping a half-mall along this visual axis.