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PostOct 06, 2014#76

shimmy wrote: First, I don't see how protecting my constitutional rights are any different than advocating for constitutional rights that are limited due to racism. The rights of all individuals that are guaranteed in the Constitution should be considered equal. Though, I was just using that as an example. Second, you're right when you say the possible murder of a kid. The purpose of the grand jury is to determine whether those allegations hold any merit. If they do, then the officer will be put on trial for murder and judged by a jury of his peers. That's how our justice system works. Attention-grabbing antics in a venue that has absolutely zero possibility to influence anything, nor should it influence anything, is just embarrassing.

The disobedience that served a purpose in the civil rights movement was pretty pointed. Sitting in the front of the bus because you're not allowed to sit in the front of the bus, or sitting in a diner because you're not allowed to sit in a diner, all because of the color of your skin, is a much more pragmatic way of highlighting your issue than becoming the equivalent of Code Pink at a congressional hearing. Actually, the Code Pink protests make more sense as congressmen have the power to influence the issues that they are protesting, as opposed to musicians at the symphony who have zero influence on the judicial process. Wouldn't this protest make much sense to have at the Civil Courts building? Or city hall? Or the Old Courthouse, which I thought served as a very appropriate and moving backdrop when protests were held there before? Another difference between the civil rights disobedience and this is that the civil rights movement was protesting undeniable discrimination, as opposed to this situation where all charges of murder are alleged. Hence, the purpose of the grand jury.

Furthermore, if the purpose of this is to show the grand jury that the populace wants justice, and that justice is only served in the form of an indictment, well, isn't that just arguing that popular opinion should have a bigger say in our judicial system than careful consideration of the facts? Since when is justice tied to popular opinion? Especially when that opinion is largely uneducated and ignorant of all of the facts?
Protecting your constitutional right to choose what kind of guns you can and can't have and/or carry around in public is different from advocating for constitutional rights that are limited due to racism because racism in this country (and city) prevent people from securing access to quality education, employment, housing, etc. Race of suspects/defendants is also a huge determining factor in what result one faces in our criminal justice system. These are huge essential social issues, frankly not comparable to the government telling you which guns you get to play with and which ones you don't.

The rights of all individuals that are guaranteed in the Constitution should be considered equal, but of course it is worth mentioning that from the founding of this nation, our founding fathers did not mean that those rights were to apply equally to everyone... so arguing for equality via the constitution (when the constitution was in fact written to codify an inherently unequal nation into existence) is kinda bogus.

The purpose of a grand jury is to determine whether those allegations hold any merit, but to say that "If they do, then the officer will be put on trial for murder and judged by a jury of his peers. That's how our justice system works" is totally ignorant of the fact that our justice system very often does not work the way it is supposed to, that unjust results happen from it frequently, and that statistically, the race of people involved in the case is often a factor. To say that "attention-grabbing antics in a venue that has absolutely zero possibility to influence anything, nor should it influence anything, is just embarrassing" is highly dismissive, insulting, and heinously ignorant of disenfranchised people trying to make their voices heard.

You mentioned some more "pointed" demonstrations from the civil rights era, which is great. They were often not so pointed. The civil rights era is fraught with bombings, riots, police beatings, marches, and demonstrations EXACTLY LIKE THE ONE WE SAW AT THE SYMPHONY AND THE SPORTING EVENTS. In the aggregate, these events force people to face issues and have conversations and take action. You're quibbling over what these disenfranchised peoples are doing and where they're doing it, but you're totally missing the point in so doing.

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PostOct 07, 2014#77

^ thank you. that said it all.

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PostOct 07, 2014#78

Well I had a four paragraph response written, but it disappeared when I pressed "submit" and was forced to log in again. That's probably for the best, as I probably got too smartass-y to be productive in the debate anyways.

But here's the gist of it:

The whole gun thing was an example to prove that you would not be in favor of me advocating for my rights the same way that you are advocating for yours. That's the definition of hypocrisy. Of course the rights we are advocating for a different, but that's not the point. The point is that everyone is endowed with certain unalienable rights (would you agree with that? I noticed that you aren't a fan of the founding documents and ideas that this whole debate of rights and freedoms revolve around), and everyone is equally entitled to those rights. My rights aren't more important than yours, and yours aren't more important to mine. So if you really want to argue for unalienable rights, then I'll shoot you a message when I find out the time and location of the next Friends of the NRA meeting. As much as you dislike the Constitution, certainly you'd appeal to the First Amendment to defend your right protest. I'm sure you'll probably refer to the Fourth Amendment when you argue that "disenfranchised" people are in fact disenfranchised because of laws like stop-and-frisk, no? But the Second Amendment isn't important when arguing about inalienable rights. Gotcha. Nice consistency there.

As for your argument against the judicial system, I guess that means that you think a judicial system based on popular opinion is a better system to guarantee justice. Advocating for the indictment of Officer Wilson, regardless of what the evidence proves, isn't justice. It's a witch hunt.

Now, if you want to advocate for this witch hunt by further embarrassing this city through obnoxious publicity stunts, then I'm not really sure what to tell you. I agree that there needs to be a serious discussion regarding race and policing in this city and in this country. That discussion can't be had when one side wants to shout down the other. And you know, that "other" side doesn't even disagree with them. They're simply saying, "Let the facts prevail. Let justice prevail."

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PostOct 07, 2014#79

threeonefour wrote: Perhaps people interested in the Cardinals game- or a peaceful night at Powell Hall- want an escape from the daily onslaught of news regarding this ongoing investigation? Maybe they're tired of this case being tried in the media? Perish the thought!
i know i'm cherry picking—i don't have the energy to respond to all of this right now. but when i read this i LMFAO'd. oh, all those poor suburbanites and (mostly) well-to-do white symphony-goers! relentlessly subjected to TV news and internet articles reminding them of the racism and poverty that the vast majority of them don't have to deal with. life is hard. :(

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PostOct 07, 2014#80

urban_dilettante wrote:
threeonefour wrote: Perhaps people interested in the Cardinals game- or a peaceful night at Powell Hall- want an escape from the daily onslaught of news regarding this ongoing investigation? Maybe they're tired of this case being tried in the media? Perish the thought!
i know i'm cherry picking—i don't have the energy to respond to all of this right now. but when i read this i LMFAO'd. oh, all those poor suburbanites and (mostly) well-to-do white symphony-goers! relentlessly subjected to TV news and internet articles reminding them of the racism and poverty that the vast majority of them don't have to deal with. life is hard. :(
Well, since you are admittedly cherry-picking, I should remind you that specific comment was in response to NN's claim that people cared more about the outcome of the Cardinals game than racism. While that's true for some people, it's also a bit cynical. People don't need to be reminded of the shooting and the controversy that surrounds it every day to care about racism. In other words, someone who wants a temporary escape from reality is not necessarily guilty of apathy toward this issue.

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PostOct 07, 2014#81

shimmy wrote:Now, if you want to advocate for this witch hunt by further embarrassing this city through obnoxious publicity stunts, then I'm not really sure what to tell you.
i guess one person's obnoxious publicity stunt is another person's appeal for social justice.
shimmy wrote:I agree that there needs to be a serious discussion regarding race and policing in this city and in this country. That discussion can't be had when one side wants to shout down the other. And you know, that "other" side doesn't even disagree with them. They're simply saying, "Let the facts prevail. Let justice prevail."
if you actually agreed that there needs to be a serious discussion—that is, if you acknowledge the reasons for that need—then a small group of people delaying a concert for 5 minutes wouldn't upset you so badly. as people have already said, this is not just about the Brown shooting. it's about the systematic and disproportionate inequality that black people still deal with in St. Louis. if people in St. Louis actually wanted to have this discussion it would've happened already; there've been plenty of opportunities. the truth is they don't. that's why these provocations are necessary. say that Wilson is not indicted and all the protesters go away. do you honestly believe that any further conversation will be had concerning the poverty in N. St. Louis or the way in which the various munis prey on their mostly black, mostly poor populations? do you honestly believe that there would be any conversation going on now if Ferguson hadn't been splashed all over the national media?

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PostOct 07, 2014#82

Well, this is embarrassing:

http://deadspin.com/cardinals-fans-get- ... 1643282285

Especially the quotes in the story, and then the comments.

"Best klans in baseball". Ouch. :oops:

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PostOct 07, 2014#83


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PostOct 07, 2014#84

Well, that was predictably awful to see. Although I question the effectiveness of protests at this point, there's no question that they have every right to be there, and the reaction of some Cardinals fans was absolutely deplorable.

I'm not trying to excuse this at all, but Sweet Jesus, I HATE Deadspin! Everyone there not named Will Leitch (who the founder of Deadspin and a lifelong Cardinals fan originally from Mattoon, Illinois) has a serious hard-on for anything that makes the St. Louis Cardinals look like the scum of the earth. Obviously, with fans like these, people who see this aren't going to have a favorable impression of our fan base. To suggest that this somehow represents the Cardinals fan base or the true pulse of St. Louis, however, is seriously reaching, and the hacks who write for Deadspin know that. They care a lot less about racism and a lot more about smearing anything associated with the Cardinals. This, and the criticism of Mayor Slay's goofy WSJ op-ed column, are only the beginning of a long line of anti-Cardinals diatribes there. Of course, if anyone thinks Deadspin is serious journalism, then the Chevy Aveo is a serious sports car.

Did the author seriously say 'Go Dodgers' at the end of the article? Oh my. Anyone familiar with the Dodgers fan base knows that they have PLENTY of issues of their own...

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PostOct 07, 2014#85

Northside Neighbor wrote:Well, this is embarrassing:

http://deadspin.com/cardinals-fans-get- ... 1643282285

Especially the quotes in the story, and then the comments.

"Best klans in baseball". Ouch. :oops:
St. Louis, everyone.

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PostOct 07, 2014#86

Greatest St. Louis wrote:St. Louis, everyone.
I'll give you points for brevity, but would you care to elaborate on that statement, please?

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PostOct 07, 2014#87

threeonefour wrote:Did the author seriously say 'Go Dodgers' at the end of the article? Oh my. Anyone familiar with the Dodgers fan base knows that they have PLENTY of issues of their own...
Exactly this. Deadspin is a *hole, and their "St. Louisans are literally Hitler" bs is really getting old.

The "Go Dodgers" at the end.......really gives it all away. They're playing political mud-slinging because they want the Cardinals to lose. As if LA is any better when it comes to racial relations.

It's duplicitous and more than a tad immoral, but what do you expect from a clickbait troll website?

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PostOct 07, 2014#88

St. Louis, everyone.
I'll give you points for brevity, but would you care to elaborate on that statement, please?
Allow me...

Like it or not, all of the stuff going on in Ferguson is our window to the world. It's an outsider's introduction to St. Louis. And we're not coming off looking very good. Quite the contrary. We're looking really bad.

The St. Louis County Economic Development Partnership described the ongoing media coverage of the Ferguson case as a branding and image crisis for the St. Louis region of "global proportions".

So for those of you smug in your views; for those indignant about the tactics of protesters; for all of you shouting your support for Officer Wilson; carry on!

"Represent!" :roll:

Know that you are the new face of St. Louis to the world - a place being portrayed worldwide as a racist, intolerant, backwards community.

Congratulations on your new "fame"!

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PostOct 07, 2014#89

To be fair, you'd get similar reactions in just about any city. But it happened here and not there and so we pay the price for our troglodytes.

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PostOct 07, 2014#90

threeonefour wrote:I'm not trying to excuse this at all, but Sweet Jesus, I HATE Deadspin! Of course, if anyone thinks Deadspin is serious journalism, then the Chevy Aveo is a serious sports car.

Did the author seriously say 'Go Dodgers' at the end of the article? Oh my. Anyone familiar with the Dodgers fan base knows that they have PLENTY of issues of their own...
Will Leitch cofounded Deadspin, but sold it to Gawker Media, and is no longer associated, although from his writing and podcast, it sounds like they are on good terms. I really enjoy the site and find the articles funny, but I think the Cardinals hate stems from three things...
1) A national undercurrent of Cardinal over-exposure > jealousy > hatred
2) Gave the editors and writers a hook to finally get back at Will Leitch who was probably an annoying and insuffarable Cards fan around the office for years. (I like him, but if I wasn't a Cardinals fan I could see how it would get on my nerves). If I had control of Deadspin I would look for every opportunity to publicly give my friends sh*t about the annoying teams they like and their fans.
3) The most vocal fans are such easy targets, just look at the comments section on any of these articles (or Mayor Slay's WSJ response), they are just asking to be mocked. Either shut up, or embrace the hate.

That said, this one isn't as funny. But, I also think given a similar situation, the camera man/reporter would get a similar in most stadiums. Of course this guy and his camera are going to attract the most racist, stupid, drunk and attention hungry fans. Is he going to let the camera linger on the hundreds of people, who walked by and either just walked by or voiced some support for the protesters?

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PostOct 07, 2014#91

shimmy wrote:Well I had a four paragraph response written, but it disappeared when I pressed "submit" and was forced to log in again. That's probably for the best, as I probably got too smartass-y to be productive in the debate anyways.

But here's the gist of it:

The whole gun thing was an example to prove that you would not be in favor of me advocating for my rights the same way that you are advocating for yours. That's the definition of hypocrisy. Of course the rights we are advocating for a different, but that's not the point. The point is that everyone is endowed with certain unalienable rights (would you agree with that? I noticed that you aren't a fan of the founding documents and ideas that this whole debate of rights and freedoms revolve around), and everyone is equally entitled to those rights.
The fact that the Ferguson protesters are advocating for different rights from you is absolutely the point. They're advocating for those different rights that they don't have. They're on footing that is unequal to and less privileged than yours is. I don't know how to make it clearer than to repeat what I said: you're quibbling, at worst, over what kinds of guns the government is letting you play with. They're quibbling over, at worst, being given an equal shake in life for a job, for a good education, for an opportunity at advancement, for a better place to live in a nicer part of town, to be treated equally under the law in our criminal justice system, etc.

That is absolutely the point. Of all of this. Of this whole thing. That's why the protests are happening.

To say "that isn't the point" is to tacitly admit defeat. You're brushing off the whole point.

Of course I think everyone's rights and access to opportunity should be equal. Of course I strive for a purely egalitarian society. That is not what we have. And that is why the protests are happening.
shimmy wrote:My rights aren't more important than yours, and yours aren't more important to mine. So if you really want to argue for unalienable rights, then I'll shoot you a message when I find out the time and location of the next Friends of the NRA meeting.
Yeah, of course no one's rights are more important than another's. The problem is that these people are arguing for rights that they do not have, that you do have, as a result of your privilege (enjoy: http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/09/whi ... explained/)
shimmy wrote:As much as you dislike the Constitution, certainly you'd appeal to the First Amendment to defend your right protest. I'm sure you'll probably refer to the Fourth Amendment when you argue that "disenfranchised" people are in fact disenfranchised because of laws like stop-and-frisk, no? But the Second Amendment isn't important when arguing about inalienable rights. Gotcha. Nice consistency there.
Like I said, the Constitution was meant to codify an inherently unequal nation into law. Its rights and privileges afforded therefrom applied only to a certain group of Americans, and it was meant to perpetuate a nation for that specific group on the backs of other groups (namely: blacks, women, and non-landowning males). It was written by men who had nothing but time in their day to study history and philosophy because their slaves did all their work and earned all their wealth for them, so of course there are great ideas in there like freedom of speech. That does not by itself make the constitution an inherently great document or a source of equal protections for all peoples. Because it does not adequately protect all peoples and ensure equality for all peoples. BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER MEANT TO DO THAT.
shimmy wrote:As for your argument against the judicial system, I guess that means that you think a judicial system based on popular opinion is a better system to guarantee justice. Advocating for the indictment of Officer Wilson, regardless of what the evidence proves, isn't justice. It's a witch hunt.
Nowhere did I say or even imply that. I simply stated the fact that poor minorities (specifically blacks and Hispanics) face statistically worse results in our justice system, and that our justice system has serious issues that must be addressed. There is no way one could conclude from that, logically, that I think a judicial system based on popular opinion is a better system to guarantee justice. That's a straw-man argument, and one I won't dignify with a reply.
shimmy wrote:Now, if you want to advocate for this witch hunt by further embarrassing this city through obnoxious publicity stunts, then I'm not really sure what to tell you. I agree that there needs to be a serious discussion regarding race and policing in this city and in this country. That discussion can't be had when one side wants to shout down the other. And you know, that "other" side doesn't even disagree with them. They're simply saying, "Let the facts prevail. Let justice prevail."
Please refer to ud's reply to this.

PostOct 07, 2014#92

threeonefour wrote:
Greatest St. Louis wrote:St. Louis, everyone.
I'll give you points for brevity, but would you care to elaborate on that statement, please?
There are two St. Louises. Usually only one or the other is represented in media. But here, they're both confronting each other face-to-face before the entire world/internet.

That's what I meant.

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PostOct 07, 2014#93

Greatest St. Louis wrote:
threeonefour wrote:
Greatest St. Louis wrote:St. Louis, everyone.
I'll give you points for brevity, but would you care to elaborate on that statement, please?
There are two St. Louises. Usually only one or the other is represented in media. But here, they're both confronting each other face-to-face before the entire world/internet.

That's what I meant.
That's what I figured; thanks for the response.

PostOct 07, 2014#94

Northside Neighbor wrote: Allow me...
Allow me to respond in kind...
Like it or not, all of the stuff going on in Ferguson is our window to the world. It's an outsider's introduction to St. Louis. And we're not coming off looking very good. Quite the contrary. We're looking really bad.

The St. Louis County Economic Development Partnership described the ongoing media coverage of the Ferguson case as a branding and image crisis for the St. Louis region of "global proportions".
Exactly. I get that. There is some pointed, constructive criticism out there that paints St. Louis in a negative light but also needs to be taken seriously, even by our city's most ardent defenders, regardless of how they view the Brown controversy.

However, this Deadspin article is just the latest in a long line of ridiculous and vituperative anti-St. Louis hit jobs which are usually centered on the Cardinals. This isn't journalism, it's clickbait. Please refer to MattOnArsenal's post for the history behind this; his take on the hatred for the Cardinals (and why some of the negative opinions are actually deserved to some extent) is pretty accurate in my opinion. That said, the conflation of a group of ignorant fans who harshly responded to pro-Brown protesters with the overall Cardinals fan base (millions of people) is shamefully irresponsible. That would be like holding the Dodgers' fan base responsible for the Giants fan who was nearly beaten to death- ridiculous.
So for those of you smug in your views; for those indignant about the tactics of protesters; for all of you shouting your support for Officer Wilson; carry on!

"Represent!" :roll:
I am here for civil discourse, so I will strive to remain responsible here. If the above statements are directed at Shimmy, me, and anyone who dares to agree with us on any issue surrounding this case, I daresay your remarks are gratuitous and unfair.

Do you typically describe people with whom you disagree as 'smug in (their) views'? If so, I suppose you don't practice what you preach when it comes to tolerance, which as I said earlier is this discussion is 'often a one-way street'.

Did it occur to you that those of us who are critical of protesters' tactics have reason to believe the unfortunate, unlawful actions of the bad actors among them harm both our city's image and the future of racial relations in our community as well? Is it unfair or unfathomable to think that some reasonable people might dare to criticize the actions of those who engage in criminal behavior or the politicians who are quick to appease it for personal gain? I don't believe all protesters are criminals or unjustified in their actions, but I don't assume that people who criticize the bad actors are racist or intolerant, either.

I also fail to understand how you equate support for due process and patience for the grand jury to come to a decision on this matter as support for Officer Wilson. As I've said before, I'm waiting for the facts and the grand jury decision.
Know that you are the new face of St. Louis to the world - a place being portrayed worldwide as a racist, intolerant, backwards community.

Congratulations on your new "fame"!
I suppose this applies to anyone who dares to present any opinion outside of the majority of people on this forum with regards to this issue. It's tolerance, according to you. The 'new face of St. Louis' is our fault. Got it. I'm glad we understand each other now.

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PostOct 07, 2014#95

Guys, I'm reading a lot of posts about how Deadspin has some irrational, hate-driven agenda against St. Louis, and that's simply not true. I firmly believe STL deserves all of the bad press it's getting in the past couple months. They're not making these posts up out of thin air.

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PostOct 07, 2014#96

wustl_eng wrote:Guys, I'm reading a lot of posts about how Deadspin has some irrational, hate-driven agenda against St. Louis, and that's simply not true. I firmly believe STL deserves all of the bad press it's getting in the past couple months. They're not making these posts up out of thin air.
Allow me to make a distinction: Deadspin has a long history of anti-St. Louis tirades. The writers there simply don't like the Cardinals for several reasons as MoA pointed out in his previous post. The difference is that this time, as well as others, the author conflated the unfortunate actions of a few people gathered outside Busch Stadium with the entire Greater St. Louis community and the Cardinals' fan base. They didn't conjure these events or the criticism of Mayor Slay's op-ed column out of thin air, but they also spun the facts of the matter to fit their agenda and to make the actions of a few seem appear as if they represented St. Louis and 'Cardinal Nation'. (I hate that contrived name for the fan base, but it seems to fit in this case.)

As I said in my response to NN, there are countless critical analyses of St. Louis and the events over the last two months out there. I take those articles a lot more seriously than anything I'd ever read from Deadspin. It's TMZ Sports.

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PostOct 07, 2014#97

wustl_eng wrote:Guys, I'm reading a lot of posts about how Deadspin has some irrational, hate-driven agenda against St. Louis, and that's simply not true. I firmly believe STL deserves all of the bad press it's getting in the past couple months. They're not making these posts up out of thin air.
In all seriousness, there is some truth to the fact that they especially go out of their way to knock the Cardinals and their fans because of Will Leitch.

But I definitely do agree in principle. St. Louis deserves every ounce of bad press it's ever gotten because of the racial issues that grip this city and the surrounding area.

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PostOct 07, 2014#98

Media coverage over the clash of protesters and pro-Wilson defenders at last night's playoff game is all over the place. Nationwide. It's not just Deadspin. And it's all painting STL as being an openly racist place.

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PostOct 07, 2014#99

Are the St. Louis "problems" really isolated to St. Louis? Isnt there a "Ferguson" type area or situation in almost every major city? I dont really like the "get what we deserve" talk. Seems like this could happen anywhere?

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PostOct 07, 2014#100

bigmclargehuge wrote:Are the St. Louis "problems" really isolated to St. Louis? Isnt there a "Ferguson" type area or situation in almost every major city? I dont really like the "get what we deserve" talk. Seems like this could happen anywhere?
Short answer: No.

Long answer: It's particularly bad here compared to most places.

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