urbanSTL

...is pretty shocking. She lives in the CWE and her eyes weren't open to the inequalities in STL? Really? Uh, had she never walked/biked/driven north on Euclid into Fountain Park before?

If only that were true. Same goes for so many STL people. It's amazing how many never venture outside of their familiar areas.

C'mon people. There's a lot of cool stuff to see if you just look for it. Maybe STLousians aren't that curious? Or maybe they're just afraid.

It's weird because most of the cool stuff is really close, all within about a 20 minute drive of Clayton, MO.

jcity wrote:This was a nice peaceful protest, but the "which side are you on" question is ridiculous until the full report comes out.

Of course it's ridiculous, as is the continuous labeling of Officer Wilson as a murderer even though he is innocent until proven guilty in our justice system. I'm on the side of the truth- I'm just patiently waiting for it to be revealed.

That stunt at Powell Hall was a peace disturbance and everyone involved should have been arrested in my opinion. At some point, these 'peaceful protesters' have to realize their efforts are beginning to annoy even those who agree with them.

That stunt at Powell Hall was a peace disturbance and everyone involved should have been arrested in my opinion. At some point, these 'peaceful protesters' have to realize their efforts are beginning to annoy even those who agree with them.

So what you're suggesting is that the protestors should stop protesting because they are interrupting the rest of us? And maybe if they just stop protesting their concerns will be healed? Sort of like waving a magic wand at a problem?

Yeah, that ought to work.

Enrollment at the four-campus University of Missouri system is on the rise.

A record 35,441 students are taking on-campus or online classes this fall at the flagship campus in Columbia, an increase of about 2 percent. MU Chancellor R. Bowen says freshman enrollment was up 5 percent to 6,518 students.

The Missouri University of Science and Technology had about 8,650 students enrolled for the largest increase at 6.3 percent. The Kansas City campus had about 16,000 students enrolled, a 2.6 percent increase.

The St. Louis campus had slower enrollment growth than the other system schools. Officials there blamed it on tensions in Ferguson after the shooting death of a black 18-year-old by a white officer.

....shooting that happened on Aug 9th is blamed for slower enrollment growth at UMSL? i call BS...99% of people that enroll do it before Aug 9th.

He's saying that protests should take place in the proper forum, not by interrupting the symphony or any other performance for a publicity stunt.

It's called "civil disobedience" for a reason.

If the protesters stay in their government approved little box to protest, instead of getting in front of people where they are in their routines, then no one notices and they are easily ignored.

Sort of like ignoring the people handing out copies of the "Watchtower" at government-approved free speech booths at airports. No big deal. Out of sight, out of mind!

shimmy wrote:

Northside Neighbor wrote:

That stunt at Powell Hall was a peace disturbance and everyone involved should have been arrested in my opinion. At some point, these 'peaceful protesters' have to realize their efforts are beginning to annoy even those who agree with them.

So what you're suggesting is that the protestors should stop protesting because they are interrupting the rest of us? And maybe if they just stop protesting their concerns will be healed? Sort of like waving a magic wand at a problem?

Yeah, that ought to work.

That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that protests should take place in the proper forum, not by interrupting the symphony or any other performance for a publicity stunt. He's also saying that no one actually knows what happens, that finding out the truth is the purpose of the grand jury, that our judicial system has these procedures for a reason, and that people shouldn't be jumping to conclusions by trying to convict the officer for murder when he may have been justified in his actions. Did I represent you correctly, threeonefour? If I did then I completely agree.

Shimmy, that is exactly my point. Thank you for stating it so eloquently.

I would also add that tolerance is far too often a one-way street. Would those who supported this stunt be accepting of a similar endeavor by Officer Wilson supporters, or pro-life demonstrators, or a group of Tea Party members? I doubt it.

This was simply the wrong place, the wrong time, and the wrong way to get the message across. Couldn't this group have simply gathered outside Powell Hall and performed before and after the symphony? I realize that isn't good enough for the protesters or Northside Neighbor as it doesn't generate enough 'attention'. However, when the dust settles and the grand jury comes to a decision, we have to figure out how to go forward as a community whatever the decision may be, and I believe tactics like this make the healing process more difficult.

As I said before, there are people supportive of pro-Brown protesters who are getting sick of these antics. Is the possibility of alienating supporters and/or people who are at least receptive to the message troubling to pro-Brown demonstrators? If not, it should be in my opinion.

As I said before, there are people supportive of pro-Brown protesters who are getting sick of these antics. Is the possibility of alienating supporters and/or people who are at least receptive to the message troubling to pro-Brown demonstrators? If not, it should be in my opinion.

This is a bit of a straw man argument.

Which pro-Michael Brown protest supporters are opposed to the tactics of protesters? I'm not aware of any, particularly those living in North St. Louis neighborhoods or African American leaders. Quite the contrary. Everything I'm hearing from people in these communities is supportive of the acts of protesters.

Northside Neighbor wrote:This is a bit of a straw-man argument.

Which pro-Michael Brown supporters are opposed to the tactics of protesters? I'm not aware of any, particularly those living in North St. Louis neighborhoods or African American leaders. Quite the contrary. Everything I'm hearing from people in these communities is supportive of the acts of protesters.

I don't know any African-American leaders on a first-name basis, so perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us on the specific actions of the protesters that they endorse. Are they unanimously in favor of disrupting events at local performance venues, shutting down public transit before Cardinals playoff games, taunting police at demonstrations, and threatening local business owners? I realize not all protesters engage in this behavior, but these are examples of what I believe are actions that threaten to derail the legitimate protesters' right to air their message as well as their ability to gain public support.

All I know is the people I talk to, in person and on social media, are on both sides of the issue, yet many people on both sides are wary of the constant strife and fearful of what will happen once the grand jury's decision is made public. That is simply my anecdotal observation, and I am just one middle-class and not-well-connected individual, so you are free to regard it or dismiss it as you wish. My view isn't necessarily an accurate read on where the community stands. I simply believe I am not alone in the middle- waiting for an outcome and hoping our community isn't torn apart in the process.

If the grand jury doesn't indict, I keep hearing about "evacuation plans" the police have....MY GOODNESS

Well, without getting into listing "names", I do know many African American leaders on a first name basis and am friends with them on Facebook and in the non-electronic world. My statement stands. I have not read/heard one comment from any of them deriding the actions of protesters when it comes to peaceful protesting.

Do they opposing rioting and looting? Of course. Do they oppose peaceful protests at sporting events, concert halls, etc? Not from anything I have read and heard to date.

Understand that many of these people have been in the trenches fighting for civil rights for decades. It's been a lifelong struggle. So the idea that these concerns are getting a lot of attention now they see as a good thing. And if somehow continuing protests should inconvenience patrons of the STL Symphony or Cardinal playoff game ticketholders, I don't think they really mind.

And about what happens going forward, say in the event of a non-indictment of Officer Wilson? Yeah, that's a big concern for everyone.

shimmy wrote:Next time I go to the Muny, halfway through the second act I'm going to unveil a giant "Come and Take 'Em!" banner with the outline of an AR-15 on it and start waving a Gadsden flag while singing Ted Nugent songs. I wonder what kind of support I will receive.

May I join you? Apparently, Greater St. Louis cultural institutions are now fair game as venues to air grievances.

^ don't be disingenuous. the (false) perception that somebody's out to get your guns is not comparable to institutionalized racism and the possible murder of a kid. maybe the symphony and their patrons are smart enough to understand that. moreover, if not for civil disobedience the civil rights movement would not have happened. it's pretty pathetic when you're more concerned about the symphony or a football game being delayed for 5 or 10 minutes than you are about, say, police militarization or the extremely shady way in which the Ferguson police have handled the "investigation" (refusing to release Wilson's name, opportunistically releasing a "strong-arm" video to discredit Brown and divert attention from details of the actual shooting, etc). that the protestors at the symphony limited their peaceful, well-organized message to 5 minutes suggests that they are, in fact, conscious of the line between enough and too far.

Again, Shimmy, well said. As an aside, I love that picture of the Collinsville Catsup Bottle as well!

shimmy wrote:

threeonefour wrote:Again, Shimmy, well said. As an aside, I love that picture of the Collinsville Catsup Bottle as well!

Thank you! It's up for sale, you know. So if you're looking for some property in Illinois...

I know. I'm a bit short on cash, but I hope this icon can be preserved!

Just a quick observation, but "Shimmy" and "three-one-four" strike me as Tea Party, gun rights advocates. If so, I'm sure they love arguing about civil rights for low income, poorly represented black people.

Also, a further guess, I'm betting they are both white people weighing in from the suburbs outside of 270. Be honest guys. Yes or no?

Lastly (and here's more of the straw man, red herring side of this), Shimmy and three-one-four, you do acknowledge that the Ferguson protests have grown to something much larger than the Mike Brown case, correct?

This is now about much more than whether or not Officer Wilson is indicted in the shooting of Mike Brown. So when debating the issues, let's take off the Officer Wilson blinders and think about the larger issues of racial justice in St. Louis.

Regardless the outcome of the Grand Jury investigation, the underlying issues energizing these protests will continue, agreed?

What I wonder about is where we go from here? After Ferguson. After Officer Wilson. Will STL begin to heal the damage caused by over fifty years of institutionalized racism?

Or will the "Shimmys" and "three-one-fours" of STL continue to build up straw man narratives, conflating things like gun ownership and education equity, so, essentially, we go nowhere?

I really wonder. Because we here in STL can no longer pretend that everything is normal. They're not. We have serious, deep-seated, societal challenges, and massive racial divide, and a lot of people who are more concerned about where the Cardinals win this game tonight than whether North St. Louis recovers.

how is the juvenile act of disrupting a symphony performance making progress towards healing the "serious, deep-seated, societal challenges, and massive racial divide"? Or how does using such an antic to try and use popular opinion to influence judicial proceedings help the civil rights of low income, poorly represented black people? Or even any person, for that matter?

Simple. It raises awareness and keeps the issues in front of people. And remember, this is about a lot more than judicial proceedings.

Glad to hear that the events of Ferguson, MO, have made it across country into the minds of Virginians!

Northside Neighbor wrote:Just a quick observation, but "Shimmy" and "three-one-four" strike me as Tea Party, gun rights advocates. If so, I'm sure they love arguing about civil rights for low income, poorly represented black people.

Also, a further guess, I'm betting they are both white people weighing in from the suburbs outside of 270. Be honest guys. Yes or no?

Swing and a miss. I hope the Cardinals do better than this tonight and tomorrow night!

I appreciate your previous post directed to me, as it was well-articulated and thoughtful. Your pigeonholing and stereotyping of people with whom you disagree is unfortunate, but I don't mind at all. I'll play along anyway.

I'm a Southside Libertarian. I've lived in the city for eleven years. My views range from moderate to conservative, but I don't identify with any particular party or political movement.

I am also willing to bet that I live in a more diverse area than you, whether you're truly a northside resident or not.

In the case of the Michael Brown shooting, I am waiting for the facts of the case to come to light and the grand jury's decision. Forgive me if I don't wish to brand Officer Wilson as a murderer.

Lastly (and here's more of the straw man, red herring side of this), Shimmy and three-one-four, you do acknowledge that the Ferguson protests have grown to something much larger than the Mike Brown case, correct?

Yes. I see it as something that has grown into something much larger, but I take a slightly different view. I think of the people, of all classes and colors, who have suffered because of protesters. I think of the Ferguson business community, as many people there and in surrounding areas have lost thousands of dollars, either directly as a part of the riots and looting in the immediate aftermath of the shooting, or indirectly as business has dropped over the last month. All of this 'peaceful' protesting has led to business owners being threatened, attempted arson at the Whistle Stop Cafe, intimidation of the owner at Faraci's Pizza, and suspension of the popular Ferguson Farmers' Market and other community events.

This is now about much more than whether or not Officer Wilson is indicted in the shooting of Mike Brown. So when debating the issues, let's take off the Officer Wilson blinders and think about the larger issues of racial justice in St. Louis.

I am not blind to the concerns of protesters, or the pain and suffering of those who knew and who mourn the loss of Michael Brown. I do, however, believe some Brown sympathizers are blind to the larger costs to this community.

Regardless the outcome of the Grand Jury investigation, the underlying issues energizing these protests will continue, agreed?

Yes. However, I don't believe these protests can fix the underlying issues of race in our area. I wish it was that simple.

What I wonder about is where we go from here? After Ferguson. After Officer Wilson. Will STL begin to heal the damage caused by over fifty years of institutionalized racism?

I'd like to think so. Again, however, I don't think things are quite so simple.

Or will the "Shimmys" and "three-one-fours" of STL continue to build up straw man narratives, conflating things like gun ownership and education equity, so, essentially, we go nowhere?

Even if either or both of us were guilty of comparing apples to oranges, I don't believe either of us were trying to distract anyone from the issue at hand or misrepresent anyone's thoughts. Obviously, your mileage may vary.

What I was trying to point out was the new set of double standards that we have in our area. Because several politicians, including Senator McCaskill and Governor Nixon, have criticized the actions of police, anything goes now.

I will leave this for you and other Brown sympathizers to consider. Feel free to twist state law to fit your views as you wish:

Mo. Rev. Stat. §§ 574.010, 574.020, 574.030

I really wonder. Because we here in STL can no longer pretend that everything is normal. They're not. We have serious, deep-seated, societal challenges, and massive racial divide, and a lot of people who are more concerned about where the Cardinals win this game tonight than whether North St. Louis recovers.

Perhaps people interested in the Cardinals game- or a peaceful night at Powell Hall- want an escape from the daily onslaught of news regarding this ongoing investigation? Maybe they're tired of this case being tried in the media? Perish the thought!

Seriously, however, I agree. We have deep-seated, societal challenges and a massive racial divide. I just believe the actions of those who ostensibly act in memory of Michael Brown are not always in line with the supposed purpose of the protests. Some of the more combative actors threaten to undermine the legitimacy of the movement. Furthermore, I sincerely believe there is the risk of doing even more damage to St. Louis by making our community a national embarrassment. That may seem trite compared to the legitimate issue of racism, but time will tell how this will affect the decision making of business leaders and our efforts to attract and retain businesses and jobs.

Perhaps you should ask where the mayor's priorities are? Why did he use valuable WSJ op-ed column space to defend the Cardinals from their detractors in a misguided opinion piece when the city has much larger issues to address- like the controversy surrounding this shooting in a nearby suburb and/or the sharp rise of violent crime within the city limits?