urbanSTL

innov8ion wrote: Sorry, but there's just not a whole lot of innovation in the grocery segment anymore.

There's an Italian chain that may disagree with you.



http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200705/supermarkets

The problem with being "first in town" is that 1) local supermarkets are a three-member oligopoly; 2) how long did being "first in town" lag the rest of the world?



I'm staggered everytime I go to Bethlehem/Allentown and realize that its Wegmann's is light years ahead of anything in St. Louis.

^And I couldn't argue against you on that point, but it doesn't portray St. Louis as a community in a very favorable light.

bonwich wrote:The problem with being "first in town" is that 1) local supermarkets are a three-member oligopoly; 2) how long did being "first in town" lag the rest of the world?



I'm staggered everytime I go to Bethlehem/Allentown and realize that its Wegmann's is light years ahead of anything in St. Louis.

I just don't understand the rampant negativism about St. Louis and everything we have here. Oligopoly? If that was true then there wouldn't be Straubs, Trader Joes, Whole Foods, Aldi etc. There's no reason to resort to such hyperbole.



It could be a lot worse. All three major chains are based in St. Louis, keep money and jobs here, don't bust unions and keep nice stores. (south Grand Schnucks the exception) We could live in California where we're stuck with out-of-state, union busting chains that even in the best neighborhoods have so/so stores. I remember walking into the Vons in Malibu to pick up some picnic supplies on a recent trip. My first thought was "God, this place is a dump."



Chicago: even in tony suburbs like Naperville the Cub Foods remind me of an older Schnucks.



Even in their home city of Cincinatti I dare you to find a Kroger that wouldn't get compared with the previously mentioned SC Schnucks. I have friends that live in the suburbs in an area comparable to Chesterfield. The Kroger by them is a big boring dumpy white box that is less than 5 years old but looks 20+.



Yes, Dierbergs has yet to build in the city limits. Yes, Schnucks has pulled some cr*p with their city stores. But trust me, there's a lot worse options we could have.



BTW: these heaven-on-earth Wegman's stores: I look at their website and don't see any of their locations in urban Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, NYC or Washington DC.

steve wrote:

innov8ion wrote: Sorry, but there's just not a whole lot of innovation in the grocery segment anymore.

There's an Italian chain that may disagree with you.



http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200705/supermarkets

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I can't read the article. I did catch the part where they can cook the fish for you. Is this really any different than a fancy deli in a supermarket?

bonwich wrote:^And I couldn't argue against you on that point, but it doesn't portray St. Louis as a community in a very favorable light.

It is what it is. With the possible exception of Chicago, the Midwest always lags behind the coasts when it comes to the latest fads, etc.

>I just don't understand the rampant negativism about St. Louis and everything we have here.



We were talking about supermarkets. Who's engaging in hyperbole?



>Oligopoly? If that was true then there wouldn't be Straubs, Trader Joes, Whole Foods, Aldi etc. There's no reason to resort to such hyperbole.



You need to check the economic definition of the term. I don't have time to look it up right now, but I'd bet that the three named control more than 90 percent of the local market. Mere existence of a few other competitors doesn't negate the definition.



>All three major chains are based in St. Louis

And now you're in serious need of a fact-checker.



>But trust me, there's a lot worse options we could have.

I daresay I spend more time in grocery stores than anyone else on this forum. I didn't say Schnucks/Dierbergs/Shop 'n Save are the worst supermarkets in the country -- merely that there are better ones.



>BTW: these heaven-on-earth Wegman's stores: I look at their website and don't see any of their locations in urban Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, NYC or Washington DC.

And Dierbergs has no stores in "urban" St. Louis. So?

innov8ion wrote:

steve wrote:

innov8ion wrote: Sorry, but there's just not a whole lot of innovation in the grocery segment anymore.

There's an Italian chain that may disagree with you.



http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200705/supermarkets

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I can't read the article. I did catch the part where they can cook the fish for you. Is this really any different than a fancy deli in a supermarket?

Yeah, the whole concept of the place is to bring artisanal foods out of the elite world and into the lives of the average Joe. It's an interesting article. I'll post a few select quotes later.

[/quote]Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I can't read the article. I did catch the part where they can cook the fish for you. Is this really any different than a fancy deli in a supermarket?[/quote]



This is a great idea. I love fish but everytime a cook it I get complaints about the smell!

bonwich wrote:>I just don't understand the rampant negativism about St. Louis and everything we have here.



We were talking about supermarkets. Who's engaging in hyperbole?



>Oligopoly? If that was true then there wouldn't be Straubs, Trader Joes, Whole Foods, Aldi etc. There's no reason to resort to such hyperbole.



You need to check the economic definition of the term. I don't have time to look it up right now, but I'd bet that the three named control more than 90 percent of the local market. Mere existence of a few other competitors doesn't negate the definition.



>All three major chains are based in St. Louis

And now you're in serious need of a fact-checker.



>But trust me, there's a lot worse options we could have.

I daresay I spend more time in grocery stores than anyone else on this forum. I didn't say Schnucks/Dierbergs/Shop 'n Save are the worst supermarkets in the country -- merely that there are better ones.



>BTW: these heaven-on-earth Wegman's stores: I look at their website and don't see any of their locations in urban Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, NYC or Washington DC.

And Dierbergs has no stores in "urban" St. Louis. So?

Fine, I'll shut up.

Very disheartening to see no response to KMOV's report.



I usually hear back from KMOV. The only thing I have received is:

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or KMOV.com.



If you have a question we will get back to you soon. For immediate answers to your

questions, please visit our Frequently Asked Questions section at http://www.kmov.com/helpcenter/faq.html

We appreciate your feedback. Thank you for your continued support.





For complete list of phone numbers and e-mail addresses please visit:

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immediatley after emailing.





DID noone else hear this last Thursday 10pm news?



Did Schnucks want to keep it 'under wraps' and the PD call it off or was it delayed... I just want to know damnit!



How can you report something to hundreds of thousands of people and say it is in the "coming up in the PD" the next day.



HMMMM....



email KMOV with me my friends!



Thank you.

^ given that the content was provided by the P-D, have you considered e-mailing someone at the P-D?

bonwich wrote:^ given that the content was provided by the P-D, have you considered e-mailing someone at the P-D?

Purportedly provided. Since the P-D didn't publish it, who's to say KMOV didn't just tell a fib to make their story look better. Gotta question the ethics of KMOV.

With all due respect, KMOV didn't have "their story." That segment is entitled something like "Here are the headlines from tomorrow's St. Louis Post-Dispatch." Where do you think KMOV gets the content?

An oligopoly of grocery stores?

Mere existence of a few other competitors doesn't negate the definition.

That might be true, but that doesn't really matter if that word's defintion is not very powerful. So, three major grocery stores collectively "corner" the market and are in direct competition with each other? There are four or five other stores that collectively add up to about 10 percent of the market, the rest probably taking up 40, 20, 30 percent each? Ok. Where's the negative part of oligopoly then? Sounds like a lot of competition to me.



And yes, the "existence of a few other competitors doesn't negate the definition," but he wasn't simply noting their existence. Trader Joe's opened up quite a few very large stores and all signs are showing that it was a pretty easy entrance and that they aren't exactly struggling or feeling constricted by this "oligopoly." Trader Joes, Whole Foods, and Straub-like stores don't seem to really try to overpower any city's major every day shopping markets, but fill all the niche markets that they can and create a strong presence in localized neighborhoods all over the country.



Just proving that you know what a word means and that our situation fits it is not really that important. What I fail to see is why an "oligopoly" is that threatening in this instance.

Don't KMOV and the Post have some kind of arrangement? The Post's weather report is done by the KMOV guy--Earhart?



Anyway, about Eataly. . . .



The guy who started is it an Italian millionaire. He is a great admirer of the Slow Food movement. The concept of the store, again, is to bring artisanal foods to the masses. The store relies primarily on artisanal and organic food growers and producers in the immediate region. It took him three years just to get the logistics of it right, which is interesting and I wonder how that would work here. Anyway, the store is a combo of old school marketplace, education center (there are computers, TV monitors throughout the store that explain artisanal and organic food), and restaurant. Interestingly, the guy affirmatively wants his stores in urban centers. Apparently, it's been a raging success. The headline is a tad misleading; although he has definite plans to open in the US, his first store will be in Rockefeller Center, and will only expand from there in the five year range. So don't expect one here anytime soon, if ever. His immediate expansion goals seem to be throughout the rest of Italy and Europe. There are some great shots of the interior of this place in the article, so if you've got some time I suggest picking up a copy of the Atlantic, if even you flip through it in the store/library.

If the big 3 grocery chains of St. Louis were an oligopoly, we wouldn't have the Great Pork Steak Price Wars* every 4th of July. I vaugely remember the Great Pork Steak Price War of 1996. I think pork steaks were free with a $20 purchase.



*Previously known as the Pork Butt Price Wars

What is the Big Third?



There's Schnuck's and there's Dierberg's. What other big Saint Louis chain is there?

dweebe wrote:If the big 3 grocery chains of St. Louis were an oligopoly, we wouldn't have the Great Pork Steak Price Wars* every 4th of July. I vaugely remember the Great Pork Steak Price War of 1996. I think pork steaks were free with a $20 purchase.



*Previously known as the Pork Butt Price Wars

While said in jest, in case anyone takes it seriously, your statement isn't true at all. Just because an oligopoly exists doesn't mean there is no competition.

steve wrote:What is the Big Third?



There's Schnuck's and there's Dierberg's. What other big Saint Louis chain is there?

I guess it's like the automotive industry. Those that insist on American cars think of Chrysler as an American car company and the third part of the Big Three, while the rest of us acknowledge that there is no more "Big Three" since DaimlerChrysler is calling the shots from Stuttgart these days.



IIRC, Shop 'n' Save is owned by Supervalu, and their headquarters is in Minneapolis. So yeah, no Big Three here either.



I don't like that Dierberg's has chosen to completely avoid the city by setting up shop in nearby suburbs (Brentwood, Mackenzie, and Lemay). And I don't like some of DESCO's developments. Other than that, I can't complain about the local grocery stores. I've been to other places where the choices are worse, and yes, things could be much worse.

steve wrote:What is the Big Third?



There's Schnuck's and there's Dierberg's. What other big Saint Louis chain is there?

Shop n Save. Owned by Twin Cities based SuperValu but their St. Louis HQ is in Kirkwood. If you drive around back of the Kirkwood Shop-n-Save you'll see their corporate offices are actually the first level of that building and the grocery is the second floor.



I've heard SuperValu lets Shop-n-Save run pretty much on their own with little input. About the only thing forced on them are the house-brand items.