throatybeard wrote:Beale Street seems to work.
So does the Stroget in Copenhagen. I still don't think they're right for STL though.
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So does the Stroget in Copenhagen. I still don't think they're right for STL though.
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I still hope my hometown doesn't stick with trolleys, when every other city is pursuing modern streetcars, even comparable Midwest metros like Cincy and Columbus. Doing so, IMHO, is like sticking with steamboats, when Chicago went after rail (and everyone knows how that turned out).
And yet another midwestern city poised to compete better with a catalyzed urban core.
Learning from nearby Portland, Seattle went from concept to completion in less than four years for their modern streetcar starter line. It's time St. Louis look at similar corridors of new development capacity and forget vintage vehicles as well as federal funding.
If you build in a corridor than can dramatically redevelop, you can finance streetcars locally. Portland largely used parking revenue bonds and TIF, while Seattle increased property taxes on the land value of adjacent blocks. In both cases, selected areas went from underutilized warehouses to office buildings and residential towers. With as many underutilized corridors in St. Louis, the possibilities for a two-mile starter line are endless. But Locust, Broadway, Grand and even other parts of Delmar all have a lot more development capacity than the Loop.
St. Louis had the luck to plan light rail before the curve, getting in line before many other cities. I may sound like a broken record, but I fear St. Louis is on its way to being far behind in the emerging streetcar-race. For as little as trolleys function as streetcars, so do they return on their investment.
Learning from nearby Portland, Seattle went from concept to completion in less than four years for their modern streetcar starter line. It's time St. Louis look at similar corridors of new development capacity and forget vintage vehicles as well as federal funding.
If you build in a corridor than can dramatically redevelop, you can finance streetcars locally. Portland largely used parking revenue bonds and TIF, while Seattle increased property taxes on the land value of adjacent blocks. In both cases, selected areas went from underutilized warehouses to office buildings and residential towers. With as many underutilized corridors in St. Louis, the possibilities for a two-mile starter line are endless. But Locust, Broadway, Grand and even other parts of Delmar all have a lot more development capacity than the Loop.
St. Louis had the luck to plan light rail before the curve, getting in line before many other cities. I may sound like a broken record, but I fear St. Louis is on its way to being far behind in the emerging streetcar-race. For as little as trolleys function as streetcars, so do they return on their investment.
^ Although I agree with you, it is hard to compare a state like Minnesota or any other forward thinking state to Missouri. When I heard Missouri only gives metrolink a million dollars a year, I was seriously frustrated. What we need to do is convince local business leaders and politicians to constantly push public transportation in Jeff City. Everyones blaming metro for cost overruns etc. etc., but in comparison to funding that other cities get, metro has been a world class organization. Also modern street car lines that feed into the original metrolink and maybe a future Northside-Southside line would be ideal for a city like St. Louis. Joe Edwards has the right idea, but we need to implement a more comprehensive citywide plan.
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^It ain't just Minnesota though. I pointed to Cincy and Columbus in Ohio before that. And ain't just the "progressive" Midwest, but also the "progressive" South with cities like Charlotte and Atlanta also pursuing modern streetcars. Even inside Missouri, one could argue Kansas City's light rail project before voters this November is a rapid streetcar line. Fact is around 40 cities across the US are talking about modern streetcars, but sadly, St. Louis is missing from that list of aspiring cities.
But at one time, St. Louis was ahead of the game in transit planning. Back when MetroLink was first conceived over two decades ago, San Diego was about the only place to see modern light rail in operation. St. Louis planners had the foresight to jump ahead of others in the light-rail race.
Seattle is still waiting for their first light-rail line to open next year. However, Seattle planners visited Portland, the only place a couple years ago to see modern streetcars in operation, and now Seattle has its first line open with many more miles planned.
Joe Edwards has done many great things, but vintage trolleys are far from novel. Memphis is seeking to convert its trolley lines to streetcar. Charlotte converted its trolley line to light rail. Hardly any sizeable cities are planning trolleys, but numerous ones are entering the streetcar race. And you can't blame an anti-transit state legislature, when streetcars can be built entirely with local funding and private partnerships.
But at one time, St. Louis was ahead of the game in transit planning. Back when MetroLink was first conceived over two decades ago, San Diego was about the only place to see modern light rail in operation. St. Louis planners had the foresight to jump ahead of others in the light-rail race.
Seattle is still waiting for their first light-rail line to open next year. However, Seattle planners visited Portland, the only place a couple years ago to see modern streetcars in operation, and now Seattle has its first line open with many more miles planned.
Joe Edwards has done many great things, but vintage trolleys are far from novel. Memphis is seeking to convert its trolley lines to streetcar. Charlotte converted its trolley line to light rail. Hardly any sizeable cities are planning trolleys, but numerous ones are entering the streetcar race. And you can't blame an anti-transit state legislature, when streetcars can be built entirely with local funding and private partnerships.
Live in Charlotte now...there is indeed a new light rail, but it is not exactly a conversion of the old trolley line. The trolley still exists, but it's fairly limited in length and mostly for tourists. It only runs every 30 minutes, and does share somet rack with the new light trail.
However, there are talks about expanding the trolley around the downtown area. Currently, there is also a small bus service called the Gold Rush which uses "trolley" like busses, but again, a limited service area.
Future plans call for an extension of the current line to go north of downtown, additional lines, as well as some BRT. We'll see how it goes, but so far, the light rail line is far surpassing ridership expectations, and has spurred tons of development along its corridor, especially close to downtown.
However, there are talks about expanding the trolley around the downtown area. Currently, there is also a small bus service called the Gold Rush which uses "trolley" like busses, but again, a limited service area.
Future plans call for an extension of the current line to go north of downtown, additional lines, as well as some BRT. We'll see how it goes, but so far, the light rail line is far surpassing ridership expectations, and has spurred tons of development along its corridor, especially close to downtown.
I don't think you necessarily need an immediate push from the City, East West Gateway council or the State for that matter. SLU and Grand Center have the resources to seriously pursue a Grand Ave street car feeding metrolink. Danforth Foundation as well should drop his museum idea (I sense it is just another place to put his name) and focus on downtowm infrastructure, a new memorial blvd hosting a portion of the downtown streetcar circular would be doable. They are local entities that can secure enough funds to put together preliminary engineering as well as having the political clout to push for a transportation development district. The plus side for Danforth - it pushes for greening of the city.
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Clang, clang, clang goes the sales tax
Loop patrons would help fund trolley line
By Shawn Clubb
Monday, September 8, 2008 11:52 AM CDT
When Joe Edwards talks, people listen.
So when Edwards became interested in developing a trolley line to serve The Loop, business leaders didn’t blink — even when talk turned to creating a Transportation Development District.
The district would use sales tax generated at businesses along Delmar Boulevard and DeBaliviere Avenue to partially fund construction and operation of The Loop Trolley.By a mail-in vote early this summer, voters approved creation of the district, which will begin collecting one cent of sale tax per dollar of purchase along the 2.2-mile proposed route for the Loop Trolley. The measure passed with more than 97 percent of those voting favoring the tax.
Link
I wish we could do something like this for the city. Create transit tax districts along commercial corridors. Lets get some modern streetcars running down Grand, Gravois, Florrisant, Washington etc.
Their might be hope for downtown in future. At least Joe owns a bowling alley there. I agree, the city and region could probably make a Grand Ave streetcar and downtown circular work at a fraction of the cost of the North-South Light Rail Corridor while providing some meaningful transit and infrastructure (new Grand Ave viaduct) in the near future.
Boy, 7.575 + 1 for Loop Trolley + 0.5 for Mtero Prop M + 0.25 for Putting kids 1st Prop 1 = 9.325% And 9.241% in the city part of the Loop. Seems a bit much.
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That is way too much in sales tax and I will definitely spend less when I am in the Loop if this comes to fruitation. Those sales tax rates would be higher than in many cities in California and Texas. High sales tax along with out of control property taxes aren't a good thing.quincunx wrote:Boy, 7.575 + 1 for Loop Trolley + 0.5 for Mtero Prop M + 0.25 for Putting kids 1st Prop 1 = 9.325% And 9.241% in the city part of the Loop. Seems a bit much.
Would a 1.75% price increase really cause people to shop less? If a store had a 1.75% off sale would people really be any more likely to buy?
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^ No, but sales are temporary things. This tax is permanent. If you had to pay nearly 2% more for your items every single time you went shopping, you'd start going somewhere else, provided the travel didn't wipe out the savings. And with the Galleria a few miles away, you would.
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^ Excellent point. I'll just pick up my new bike, grab a bite at Pi and then see a concert at the Galleria.
Great News.
You know it will be only time until Washington Avenue will have a streetcar line if Edwards has anything to do with it! I would love that! A line from 4th Street past the Metro 6th and Washington station and out to (at least) 17th street. That wouold be great!
You know it will be only time until Washington Avenue will have a streetcar line if Edwards has anything to do with it! I would love that! A line from 4th Street past the Metro 6th and Washington station and out to (at least) 17th street. That wouold be great!
A line should be built going west along Wash Ave, from Convention Center Metro station to Jefferson, then west along Locust to Grand, then west along Lindell to Kingshighway. That would actually work to connect some of the most dense and commercially viable corridors of the city. CWE, Grand Center, SLU, Downtown.
And a Grand line of course.
And a Grand line of course.
quincunx wrote:Boy, 7.575 + 1 for Loop Trolley + 0.5 for Mtero Prop M + 0.25 for Putting kids 1st Prop 1 = 9.325% And 9.241% in the city part of the Loop. Seems a bit much.
Don't forget forgot the city already charges an additional 1.5% at sit down restaurants. The city gets a 9.741% slice of your pizza from Pi as it is now, even without any extra toppings.
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So, does anyone have any idea when this plan is supposed to come to fruition? I noticed they have been collecting the additional 1% Loop Trolley tax for a few months now.
JuiceInDogtown wrote:So, does anyone have any idea when this plan is supposed to come to fruition? I noticed they have been collecting the additional 1% Loop Trolley tax for a few months now.
It's on page 99 of the Mayor's economic recovery plan. It claims the trolley could be ready by Sep 2010, provided of course it's included in the economic stimulus bill.
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Engineering is underway. Should get to the 30 percent mark in about 18 months. No funds for construction. However, the the sales tax from the transportation development district should help pay the local share of a federal grant for the project at some point.
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So the high sales tax rate pays the local match for capital costs. What about operating costs, given Metro's downward spiral?
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This is not a Metro project. Part of the engineering study is to come up with an operating plan. Typically, operating funds come from a variety of sources such as TDD, U-City, STL, farebox are all possibilities. Some cities use volunteers to help keep labor costs down.
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Hmm...I'm wondering about the street cars after seeing the St Louis city PD has lost 7 officers to them..
http://odmp.org/search.php?searching=1& ... 1&cause=34
Of course I say this in jest, but that's mighty odd.
http://odmp.org/search.php?searching=1& ... 1&cause=34
Of course I say this in jest, but that's mighty odd.