^Not sure if this was directed at me? If it is, I never talked about the cars themselves. Yes, I would prefer modern cars, but I really don't care as long as there is no discernable difference in efficiency (I haven't read this entire thread so maybe there is?). Do you think commuters will be less likely to take it because it looks touristy? The ones sitting in front of Commerce Bank and The MoHistory Museum look ok. At least they don't look like a cheesy replica of SF's cable cars like those horrid bus trolleys. I would just hope that they build it so that they could swap out to modern cars if/when the line is expanded.
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Fox 2 has an interview with Joe Edwards regarding the trolley.
He said it would make a continuous loop from 10 AM to 1 AM. The route is the same as before from the Lions Gate down Delmar to DeBaliviere looping around the History Museum and back.
Link to video
He said it would make a continuous loop from 10 AM to 1 AM. The route is the same as before from the Lions Gate down Delmar to DeBaliviere looping around the History Museum and back.
Link to video
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Are you sure we can trust anything on Fox 2? You know how wrong they are on Ballpark Village……...
Do you think commuters will be less likely to take it because it looks touristy? The ones sitting in front of Commerce Bank and The MoHistory Museum look ok. At least they don't look like a cheesy replica of SF's cable cars like those horrid bus trolleys. I would just hope that they build it so that they could swap out to modern cars if/when the line is expanded.
10 am until 1:00 am?
This trolley will operate fairly slowly. Certainly no faster than a bus. It looks like, if its operating 10:00 am until 1:00 am, that its only a tourist service which will by necessity, will require an overlapping bus system.
Other than tourists, who exactly will ride this short line?.... $30 million (As reported) for something that is designed for tourists.
If it went all the way to Clayton and extended into Forest Park to serve the park institutions, it might make sense. But if you have to "Prioritize" your use of federal capital funds, does this project rank above other extensions that might have a larger market.
This project just keeps moving along, but I will be truly amazed if it is built.
Busdad wrote:Do you think commuters will be less likely to take it because it looks touristy? The ones sitting in front of Commerce Bank and The MoHistory Museum look ok. At least they don't look like a cheesy replica of SF's cable cars like those horrid bus trolleys. I would just hope that they build it so that they could swap out to modern cars if/when the line is expanded.
10 am until 1:00 am?
This trolley will operate fairly slowly. Certainly no faster than a bus. It looks like, if its operating 10:00 am until 1:00 am, that its only a tourist service which will by necessity, will require an overlapping bus system.
Other than tourists, who exactly will ride this short line?.... $30 million (As reported) for something that is designed for tourists.
If it went all the way to Clayton and extended into Forest Park to serve the park institutions, it might make sense. But if you have to "Prioritize" your use of federal capital funds, does this project rank above other extensions that might have a larger market.
This project just keeps moving along, but I will be truly amazed if it is built.
Although I wouldn't mind if this got built, I would also like to see it extended to major Forest Park attractions, now that would be a successful system and allow suburbanites to really appreciate the city when they went to places like the Zoo or Science Center they could catch the trolley to the Loop and it would definitely raise interest in other parts of the city. Maybe this would just be a preliminary line with future plans of expansion.
Busdad wrote:
I agree. But this from someone who is connected to Metro... is kind of ironic. Metro isn't / hasn't made good use of most (or in your words "Prioritize") "federal" funds either. That is almost laughable.
I am a huge supporter of Metro, but the agency "utilizes" and runs a little "upside down" operation in many ways.
I am also a supporter of this transit option.
But if you have to "Prioritize" your use of federal capital funds, does this project rank above other extensions that might have a larger market.
I agree. But this from someone who is connected to Metro... is kind of ironic. Metro isn't / hasn't made good use of most (or in your words "Prioritize") "federal" funds either. That is almost laughable.
I am a huge supporter of Metro, but the agency "utilizes" and runs a little "upside down" operation in many ways.
I am also a supporter of this transit option.
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From the video, I have several questions:
1) Will there be only one set of tracks down Delmar, or two sets for bi-directional travel?
2) Will there be only one trolley or will there be more?
3) How fast can it go?
4) Will the trolley get traffic signal priority (meaning it will always get a green light at the intersection without having to stop)?
1) Will there be only one set of tracks down Delmar, or two sets for bi-directional travel?
2) Will there be only one trolley or will there be more?
3) How fast can it go?
4) Will the trolley get traffic signal priority (meaning it will always get a green light at the intersection without having to stop)?
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^Two tracks in the outside travel lanes in mixed traffic. Parking is lost at stops to provide curb extensions out to the tracks. There will be multiple vintage cars traveling as slow or slower than a bus without any signal priority, or stopping at frequent red lights.
Personally, I think it's a waste, since it operates like an expensive bus, and more importantly, doesn't even expand fixed-rail service beyond areas already served by MetroLink. At least if it went to additional Forest Park attractions, it would make a little more sense. With all the other urban storefront corridors a good ways from MetroLink, like the Loft District, Midtown, or South Grand, the Delmar Loop shouldn't be the top priority for a streetcar.
Personally, I think it's a waste, since it operates like an expensive bus, and more importantly, doesn't even expand fixed-rail service beyond areas already served by MetroLink. At least if it went to additional Forest Park attractions, it would make a little more sense. With all the other urban storefront corridors a good ways from MetroLink, like the Loft District, Midtown, or South Grand, the Delmar Loop shouldn't be the top priority for a streetcar.
Agreed. As it is, on busy days, you can practically walk down Delmar faster than you can drive, and it'd be no different with a "vintage" trolley with no dedicated signals.southslider wrote:Personally, I think it's a waste, since it operates like an expensive bus, and more importantly, doesn't even expand fixed-rail service beyond areas already served by MetroLink. At least if it went to additional Forest Park attractions, it would make a little more sense. With all the other urban storefront corridors a good ways from MetroLink, like the Loft District, Midtown, or South Grand, the Delmar Loop shouldn't be the top priority for a streetcar.
southslider wrote:^Two tracks in the outside travel lanes in mixed traffic. Parking is lost at stops to provide curb extensions out to the tracks. There will be multiple vintage cars traveling as slow or slower than a bus without any signal priority, or stopping at frequent red lights.
Personally, I think it's a waste, since it operates like an expensive bus, and more importantly, doesn't even expand fixed-rail service beyond areas already served by MetroLink. At least if it went to additional Forest Park attractions, it would make a little more sense. With all the other urban storefront corridors a good ways from MetroLink, like the Loft District, Midtown, or South Grand, the Delmar Loop shouldn't be the top priority for a streetcar.
I would like to see a streetcar downtown at the Loft District. Could you imagine a streetcar going down Washington Ave. I would also consider them in Midtown, South Grand, and Parts of Gravois.
My first thought is that we have to start somewhere when it comes to bringing back a trolley system. This is first step of a long journey (I hope). The one good thing with this location is that the trolley should succeed, that is a must. There have been a number of improvements over the past few years east of Hodiamont and there is still plenty of vacant land to build on, so there is still the possibility for more growth. My hope is that the the entire route will flourish the same way the loop does today.
From what I know, would there even be a possibility for a trolley without Joe Edwards? The man can sure get things done.
From what I know, would there even be a possibility for a trolley without Joe Edwards? The man can sure get things done.
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^Craig Heller wants a modern streetcar down Washington, Locust or Olive. Vince Schoemehl, Father Biondi and Tim Boyle want one on Grand from Midtown to Gravois. I'm sure the Gills would love to see one down Manchester. IOW, there is urban developer support for streetcars outside of "Loop-Mayor" Joe's turf, and these areas are a lot farther from any MetroLink station.
hi is this street car transit going to happen or are you guys just being wishful thinking?
Right now, it's all wishful thinking. No money from federal, state, or local govs. In the future, possible the very distant future, I see a lot of lines.
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the project is moving ahead. The Loop Trolley Company has selected the planning and engineering firm CH2MHill to do preliminary engineering which should more precisely identify costs. Also, the LTC will determine whether or not to pursue federal funding for the project or to cobble together local funding to build it.
Also, the new bridge over MetroLink on Delmar will be "Trolley Ready," perhaps even including tracks embedded in the new structure.
This summer there will be a vote to establish a Transportation Development District along the alignment. If it passes, a small sales tax will be levied to support the construction and operation of the trolley.
Also, the new bridge over MetroLink on Delmar will be "Trolley Ready," perhaps even including tracks embedded in the new structure.
This summer there will be a vote to establish a Transportation Development District along the alignment. If it passes, a small sales tax will be levied to support the construction and operation of the trolley.
I think Tom just said the magic words for any chance at funding trolley or street car lines, Transportation Development District. Especially in Missouri. The loop has a vibrant commercial district along the route that it just might provide a tax base to support such an operation. I think of it in terms of Maplewood's Walmart/Sam's Club/Lowe's development agreeing to a TDD for Hanley Road improvements. More cars to their parking lots means more revenue. The Hanley TDD made business sense since it is paid by the consumer while providing a tangible improvement in access to those businesses (Don't like it, don't shop there is an easy answer). The loop trolley would be unique to the region, percieved as safe transit and would be easily accessable via the Delmar and Forest Park metrolink stations. More importantly, the trolley or the bus is really the only way to increase capacity of Delmar.
Now picture Washington Avenue with a new Casino on one end, the MX in the middle and available real estate before you make the reach to Wachovia/AG Edwards or Union Station on the turn around. Got up and coming residential, an attraction in the new Casino, MX anchoring the new found commercial in the middle, convention center, hotels and Metrolink connections. It could support a TDD if you lay out a street line the right way. I think a Washington Ave trolley will be pushed if the Loop Trolley Company can make it happen on Delmar. Just have to find another Joe Edwards
Now picture Washington Avenue with a new Casino on one end, the MX in the middle and available real estate before you make the reach to Wachovia/AG Edwards or Union Station on the turn around. Got up and coming residential, an attraction in the new Casino, MX anchoring the new found commercial in the middle, convention center, hotels and Metrolink connections. It could support a TDD if you lay out a street line the right way. I think a Washington Ave trolley will be pushed if the Loop Trolley Company can make it happen on Delmar. Just have to find another Joe Edwards
Dredger, I completely agree with you. A lot of cities support public transit projects through TDD. We also have to remember that a community that does for itself has a greater chance of receiving Federal funds down the line.
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Funding is key, since Metro has no reason to operate a tourist trolley. Plus, there remain Accessibility issues (non-ADA-compliant fleet), Environmental Justice/Equity issues (disproportionate spending on transit-choice users, and not even commuters at that), and Cost Effectiveness issues (a lot of capital for no travel-time savings). Ultimately, I don't see the Delmar trolley getting federally funded, when other projects nationally actually provide transportation benefits.
Charlotte started with a philanthropically funded vintage trolley with mostly recreational trips on a former freight line that has now been converted to a much longer light-rail line with mostly work trips. Now, the trolley will come back on the same tracks within the most urban section of the longer corridor, but run only at off-peak times, essentially lunch and weekends, so as to not interfere with the headways of the LRV's. But while that overlapping operations dilemma isn't applicable to St. Louis, it is important to note that Charlotte Area Transit System (CATS) will not operate the trolley, but is, however, planning to build and operate modern streetcar lines on corridors with high bus ridership and not served by LRT.
Charlotte started with a philanthropically funded vintage trolley with mostly recreational trips on a former freight line that has now been converted to a much longer light-rail line with mostly work trips. Now, the trolley will come back on the same tracks within the most urban section of the longer corridor, but run only at off-peak times, essentially lunch and weekends, so as to not interfere with the headways of the LRV's. But while that overlapping operations dilemma isn't applicable to St. Louis, it is important to note that Charlotte Area Transit System (CATS) will not operate the trolley, but is, however, planning to build and operate modern streetcar lines on corridors with high bus ridership and not served by LRT.
I don't think the Loop Trolley could be classified as a tourist trolley. The densely populated neighborhoods north and south of the Loop will be served by the line, and I think it would be a practical option to connect to the MetroLink.
That said, it's probably a long shot to win federal funding when competing against more comprehensive projects in other cities.
That said, it's probably a long shot to win federal funding when competing against more comprehensive projects in other cities.
^ Perhaps if it traced a different route, but so long as the route is simply from the Delmar Metrolink Station to the Forest Park Station, I don't think it will be more than a tourist thing. Much rather have the route go down Delmar to Kingshighway or even to Euclid and then south to the CWE Metrolink Station.
Hopefully if/when it is implemented, it will be so successful that it will be extended to the CWE (and ideally, beyond). That seems to be how many popular trends begin in St. Louis-- this is the Show-Me State, after all.
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^ But what are we talking about? A trolley car? For what purpose? Really, can anyone tell me what the purpose of this is?
If it is for tourists - what's the point? The majority of tourists visiting St. Louis have their own car, and free parking is plentiful in the Loop, and infinite in forest park. Furthermore, the Loop is not that long. You can walk end to end in 20 minutes, 15 if you're walking briskly and you catch the lights. Also, there's a metro stop on Delmar. If I'm a tourist - why would I get off at Forest Park when the Delmar stop is a half - mile closer to where I want to be? True, the FP stop is in a nicer part of town, but any tourist who would ride the metrolink wouldn't know that.
The Loop, sadly, isn't that architecturally interesting. Don't get me wrong - its nice and neat and trendy (short stretch that it is), but it's a street that has to be walked, not ridden through. The beauty of the loop is in the storefronts and sidewalks (walk of fame anyone?). You can't see those from a tram! So what's my incentive as a tourist to ride the thing? I get to say I did it and hop off? How much for a ride? $5? $10? For a mile!? A cab is cheaper.
Can it run in the snow? Heavy rains? Where are they going to store and service the trolleys? 10am - 1am operating times?? Those things are incredibly loud - louder than regular traffic. Betcha those nearby residents won't be so happy as they hear the thing clamoring down the track.
We all agree that it's useless as a commuter option, since it's too slow and too short to reach anyone. Yeah, there's residential areas nearby, but where are the stops going to be? How many? At each light? In rushour traffic you could probably walk faster than the thing. Amazing how people think that cause it's fixed rail it moves fast - not when it shares traffic folks.
The real question remains - what's the point? It's too short to be a viable commuter option and the Loop is not one of St. Louis' premier destinations (unlike the Arch, Brewery, Zoo, or Casinos). So...who's gonna ride it if it gets built?
If it is for tourists - what's the point? The majority of tourists visiting St. Louis have their own car, and free parking is plentiful in the Loop, and infinite in forest park. Furthermore, the Loop is not that long. You can walk end to end in 20 minutes, 15 if you're walking briskly and you catch the lights. Also, there's a metro stop on Delmar. If I'm a tourist - why would I get off at Forest Park when the Delmar stop is a half - mile closer to where I want to be? True, the FP stop is in a nicer part of town, but any tourist who would ride the metrolink wouldn't know that.
The Loop, sadly, isn't that architecturally interesting. Don't get me wrong - its nice and neat and trendy (short stretch that it is), but it's a street that has to be walked, not ridden through. The beauty of the loop is in the storefronts and sidewalks (walk of fame anyone?). You can't see those from a tram! So what's my incentive as a tourist to ride the thing? I get to say I did it and hop off? How much for a ride? $5? $10? For a mile!? A cab is cheaper.
Can it run in the snow? Heavy rains? Where are they going to store and service the trolleys? 10am - 1am operating times?? Those things are incredibly loud - louder than regular traffic. Betcha those nearby residents won't be so happy as they hear the thing clamoring down the track.
We all agree that it's useless as a commuter option, since it's too slow and too short to reach anyone. Yeah, there's residential areas nearby, but where are the stops going to be? How many? At each light? In rushour traffic you could probably walk faster than the thing. Amazing how people think that cause it's fixed rail it moves fast - not when it shares traffic folks.
The real question remains - what's the point? It's too short to be a viable commuter option and the Loop is not one of St. Louis' premier destinations (unlike the Arch, Brewery, Zoo, or Casinos). So...who's gonna ride it if it gets built?
I would ride it, absolutely. People had the same doubts about MetroLink-- I clearly remember all the naysayers assuming that St. Louisans would never ride it, and they were wrong. The Loop was built by and for streetcars. It could be the first step to re-introducing streetcars to the city.
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^Or it could be like the Levee Line. Since that failure, no one has taken a downtown circulator seriously. And if this tourist trolley remains just that, I worry that no one will take modern streetcars seriously in corridors where they would actually make a difference in transportation.